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Pierce County, Washington seizure?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
    Fairfax, you seem to be "in the know" here...do you know these people personally? Have you been to the barn, seen it, seen the horses in question? Not trying to be a smart @$$, sincerely wondering.

    It does strike me as odd that they had a (by Fairfax's account) water line break right before the DEA shows up to serve warrants. What are the odds? Coincidences like that raise red flags to me, they sound too much like excuses in these types of situations. *IF* that is true hope they didn't waste their money on a lottery ticket this week.

    The barn just looked like pure filth. If the manure was indeed packed a foot deep, well there is no way to blame that on a water line break, it's pure neglect. Dirty stalls are one thing, skipping stalls a day or two is gross but it does happen, but a foot of manure takes a long time to accumulate even of the horses are in all the time. And a foot of manure packed in stalls is a sure sign at least some degree neglect is taking place. Also, in the case of a water line break, why the hell would it go unaddressed? Why were the horses not turned out to get them out of that slop, why would they be brought into a barn in that condition before it was cleaned out, why was the barn not cleaned out as soon as the situation was realized? I've never seen a barn flood where the horses weren't removed (put in the pastures, whatever) and the barn cleaned out immediately. Is there anyone on here that WOULDN'T make rectifying a flooded barn top priority?

    Can't speak for the way the seizure was handled but the condition of that barn leaves a LOT to be desired.
    Never heard of them before. Saw pictures of their barn that the grey mare was alleged to have been in (the super clean horse)

    I, like many others, have every reason "to believe....but not to know yet" that the horses were outside and were put in, like the person stated, before the DEA arrived.

    According to her neighbors it has been so very dry that no amount of horses could have urinated that volume so they believe a line ruptured.

    Carol..aka Calvin whatever...give it a break...

    I have stated I do not know what is going on however the pill accusation seems to be talked about by many...

    Carol...breaking wind is NOT considered to be a breaking news story...so why don't you just stay with the former...

    All you do on the forums is take the opposite position to what ever people are discussing.I have yet to see you produce evidence for ANYTHING...heck..I haven't even seen you accomplish more than gossip...so...stick with what you know.

    Hope your mare and colt settled in. It is a shock to have them arrive half way across the country...

    Now Carol...I bet you believe everything printed about how wonderful certain politicians foreign policies are...you didn't even know about his anti Canadian tirades...but then you do give yourself a pat on the back for ONLY reading and repeating reputable views...ironically...they ALWAYS support your stance.
    The Elephant in the room

    Comment


    • #42
      Well, then there is this ...
      http://fuglyblog.com/2008/08/19/i-st...ng-last-night/
      Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

      Comment


      • #43
        Siezed Horses

        Ok this is actually the first time I have ever posted, but figured this perfect time to start. So I live a stones throw from the edge of this property (well my property line is).
        The owners of this place are doctors, a married coupled in their 60's. What was done was beyond a doubt the right and only thing to do, and should of been done long ago.
        The horses people have seen via internet or news that look to be of decent weight are actually pregnant Mares of various gestations, as breeding ran rampant and un controled there. They removed no less than 8 stallions from property which all but one were in with other horses. The studs that were removed were all very skinny and under weight. No not all horses were locked in the barn there were a total of 39 Arabs removed, over half were outside in squaller all the same. The barn as the news reported was totally inclosed with no power even ran to it, nor windows or openings for horses to have ventilation or light. There was 3 not 12 (read that somewhere) feet give or take of compacted manure in the stalls of every horse. There was ankle deep standing urine that overflowed into what they used as walkway. Someone claimed that fluid to that of a broken pipe which is not the case, in the clip from the news it showed water buckets in isle way what they did not show is the lack there of in the actual horses stall or the dead birds in the green water that filled the few that were in stalls.
        No not all horses were hard to handle or deal with, however their were several younger horses that had been touched by a human hand maybe a dozen times in their lifes if lucky, and were not only scared but the studs very aggressive through no fault of their own just due to lack of care and handeling. They AC people were there into the night trying to calm catch and handle some of them, the ones that were out in small filthy pens were trying to run through fences if anyone came within 10 feet of them. The horses that were left in dark for who knows how long truly were blinded by light and from what I understand not been told directly to me, but there are issues with their eyes having the ability to dialate properly because of long time exposure to pure dark.
        Some of them had feet that had started to actually curl due to not being trimmed. And as the news stated many had open festering wounds, and other large tumors of some type that had been left untreated and just went wild.
        These same people just a year ago listed a full grown 1900 pound draft Stud on Craigs List stating if you can catch him you can have him, he was essentially a wild horse, that was not underweight no but beyone that had feet that had fallen in on themselves they truley buckeled had lice so bad he was bald in areas, and a slew of other problems not to mention not even halter broke They were turned in then and lord knows how many time since, yes its sad it took the DEA but thank god they were there.
        So anyone who had any questions regarding the validity of the situation should know these horses should of been gone a long long time ago. I have seen the place first hand, and my Aunt works with the Rescue Group that helped move the horses, all done for free and everyone else there gave their time and effort and doing so unpaid ( read somewhere it may be about money). These people should be charged and prosecuted to full extent to the law as they left their animal to live like this as they sat in their big house and drove their BMW's and, this man is an actual practicing MD for a big Medical Group, there is just nooooo excuse it was and is a horrible horrible situation.

        Comment


        • #44
          Graham heeler, if what you say is true, how do you know it? Have you been on their property? As a friend?

          If what you say is true, all they had to do was take pics or vid of this but they did not. No vid of squalor outside. Appears to be a 12 stall barn. Where are the other 27 horses? Why no pics or vid of the feet but Unseen problems will be coming to light-really? Why no vid of the outdoor squalor you describe?

          Where are the unsellable foals from this horrible breeding operation? Why not take pics of them?

          Tumors? I know several show horses in my area that are loaded with melanoma. Should they be seized?

          I AM NOT buying it. Are you saying that the neighbor who is a vet is less reliable than you?

          WOW! Heavy handed nonsense, AGAIN!
          “Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”
          ? Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #45
            Yes I have seen it for myself and Im not on here to go tit for tat back and forth with people believe what I said or not makes no difference to me, I have no reason nor gain for stating the facts. Why no pics of the things you listed, I have no idea thats a question for the people whom were there with the camera, I have called ASPCA myself to no avail. If you believe to know better then by all mean state the facts as you seen while you stood and watched it play out as thats all I did in writing what I wrote. Why what was shown was shown and not anything else I dont know but I bet the news stations would be happy to answer that for you if ask of them that same question.
            I simply stated what I know to be fact from witnessing with my own two eyes or what was stated by someone who spent 16 hours there attempting to help the horses.
            I highly doubt that the all the State/County, and Volunteer Rescuse teams devised a big grand scheme made it all up took the horses away then paid the media off to lie, all to rip healthy care for horses aways from loving owners and to trick you... You can't make up neglect or prove that type of crime if there is not the clear physical proof thats its happening, been happening, and will continue to happen beyond a shadow of a doubt. So you may not believe a thing and more power to you, but I assure you I did not get on here to make up big mean lies...

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by GrahamHeeler View Post
              Yes I have seen it for myself and Im not on here to go tit for tat back and forth with people believe what I said or not makes no difference to me, I have no reason nor gain for stating the facts. Why no pics of the things you listed, I have no idea thats a question for the people whom were there with the camera, I have called ASPCA myself to no avail. If you believe to know better then by all mean state the facts as you seen while you stood and watched it play out as thats all I did in writing what I wrote. Why what was shown was shown and not anything else I dont know but I bet the news stations would be happy to answer that for you if ask of them that same question.
              I simply stated what I know to be fact from witnessing with my own two eyes or what was stated by someone who spent 16 hours there attempting to help the horses.
              I highly doubt that the all the State/County, and Volunteer Rescuse teams devised a big grand scheme made it all up took the horses away then paid the media off to lie, all to rip healthy care for horses aways from loving owners and to trick you... You can't make up neglect or prove that type of crime if there is not the clear physical proof thats its happening, been happening, and will continue to happen beyond a shadow of a doubt. So you may not believe a thing and more power to you, but I assure you I did not get on here to make up big mean lies...
              I believe you. I used to be close to an arab breeder who, over the years, went off the rails into the exact same type of situation you describe above. The situations I witnessed and tried to rectify by doing everything from trying to help clean out the barn (it was too late for the stallions and young horses who had never been handled) to calling the SPCA and telling them exactly which stalls the poorest condition horses were located in. They eventually made her place one or two of the worst horses but never seized her herd as they should have. I think they did not have the resources to care for 40 horses/donks.

              This woman got to the point where she padlocked her barn and hid if anyone knocked on her door because she knew they wanted to come inspect her barn and animals. She kept breeding and last I knew had around 40 animals. Most of the animals were relatively young and self trimmed and therefore did not look too bad but some of the older ones, especially the broodmares, were a very sad story indeed.

              I could tell this woman had solidly moved into a serious mental illness when I saw her most beloved broodmare, thin, dull, untrimmed hooves, deprived of fly spray, water or a stall as she had always been accustomed to as some horses lived in and some horses lived out and there was no in-between.

              She left Massachusetts and fled to Maine, leaving behind a pile of bills and I heard she has since fled to Montanna. I can not believe no one has yet taken her animals away from her.

              I used to work for another arab 'breeder' who was absolutely certifiable (also in MA). He used to own a National Champion park horse stallion with some nice crabbett breeding. He was a loaded orthodontist yet he used leaves from his yard for bedding. He did not handle his horses. I was instructed to open the barn door and let them out. His stallion was a mean bastard who would try and grab you any chance he had. He also had 3 young and beautiful unhandled sons of this stallion.

              I almost got killed there because I was letting the mares in and had closed the upper gate to the stallions stall and was standing in front of his stall to keep the mares moving by and one mare turned around and worked me over with her feet while trying to double barrel the stallion through the door. I was extremely lucky.

              This creep also called the vet one morning to tell them he had a mare colicking in his field and then he left for work. The vet came later and found the horse dead. The vet realized that he had probably found the mare in bad shape, went to work, called the vet later when it was likely too late anyway and allowed her to find the mare.

              I quit after the experience with the stallion. I was young and felt I needed to be there to protect and look out for them as best as I could against this weirdo but when I escaped serious harm after the mare/stallion incident I beat feet out of there.

              What is it about arab breeders?

              Comment


              • #47
                I hiave been asking individuals about the ankle deep urine you speak about that flowed into the aisleway. The volume of urine would have to be so very great (not just over a long time as it would seep into the ground) that it would mean the fronts of the stalls would have to open up and it would have to flow into the aisle.

                The age "60" to anyone who is 20 is ancient..however I am 62..and I take care of 12 Saddlebreds here and up to 50 dogs in the kennel. I know others who are in their 60's and have 75 horses.; .. again no problems so the age is a herring.

                You say 3 feet of compacted manure and straw and yet NOT ONE HORSE taken out of a stall had manure stains nor tail and mane mats (this was posted by a person who "observed" the rescue.

                No where have I heard them mention THRUSH which would be evident (and is usually tossed out by rescue groups) if the horses had been in all of the time.

                I do agree that it would appear conditions and numbers were not good however this whole operation, directed by the D.E.A., verbal input by the county auditor and the "rescue" group who have been under investigation themselves for some allegedly unique dealings doesn't add up.

                Take a look at what you have typed. 3 feet of compacted manure in the stalls and yet you also claim they were ankle deep in so much urine it flowed into the aisle .....

                If they had no water...dead birds (possible as I found one in the trough yesterday) there should be evidence of dead horses...and yet...none were found...photographed...and evidence paraded.

                I think you do have an agenda and that would be the rescue your Aunt works for...you know...the one with the shady dealings..

                There is too much build up too quickly and too much instand publicity with everyone, doe eyed, saying this is the worst they have ever seen in their years with rescue, county..

                AND NO FOALS ON THE GROUND but you claim all of these stallions around.

                I don't buy it...I do believe there are problems but I do not believe your little stories...to me...more propoganda.
                The Elephant in the room

                Comment


                • #48
                  Fairfax-- I don't know you..never met you. I am not "Carol", have no mare and foal. Based on your inability to follow a thread, conversation or what have you, I don't believe a word you type. Give it a rest.

                  I'd rather the "authorities" step in BEFORE tragedy strikes to secure the welfare of animals or people, then after the fact when folks stand around shaking their heads and bemoaning the fact that the "authorities" didn't "do something".

                  And many of the photos/video of horses in clean stalls are from the fairgrounds where the horses were removed to, not from the farm they were taken from.

                  Our local AC works hard to educate horse owners, and will place horses in foster to safeguard them before returning them to their owners, if they prove to have means and ability to care for their animals. If they don't then the horses are put up for adoption.
                  Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Washington Code > Title 58 > Chapter 58.09 > § 58.09.110 - Duties of county auditor


                    The auditor shall accept for recording those records of survey and records of corner information that are in compliance with the recorder's checklist as jointly developed by a committee consisting of the survey advisory board and two representatives from the Washington state association of county auditors. This checklist shall be adopted in rules by the department of natural resources.


                    (1) The auditor shall keep proper indexes of such record of survey by the name of owner and by quarter-quarter section, township, and range, with reference to other legal subdivisions.


                    (2) The auditor shall keep proper indexes of the record of corner information by section, township, and range.


                    (3) After entering the recording data on the record of survey and all prints received from the surveyor, the auditor shall send one of the surveyor's prints to the department of natural resources in Olympia, Washington, for incorporation into the statewide survey records repository. However, the county and the department of natural resources may mutually agree to process the original or an electronic version of the original in lieu of the surveyor's print.


                    (4) After entering the recording data on the record of corner information the auditor shall send a legible copy, suitable for scanning, to the department of natural resources in Olympia, Washington. However, the county and the department of natural resources may mutually agree to process the original or an electronic version of the original in lieu of the copy.


                    (5) The auditor shall permanently keep the original document filed using storage and handling processes that do not cause excessive deterioration of the document. A county may be excepted from the requirement to permanently store the original document if it has a document scanning, filming, or other process that creates a permanent, archival record that meets or surpasses the standards as adopted in rule by the division of archives and records management in chapter 434-663 or 434-677 WAC. The auditor must be able to provide full-size copies upon request. The auditor shall maintain a copy or image of the original for public reference.


                    (6) If the county has the capability to accept a digital signature issued by a licensed certification authority under chapter 19.34 RCW or a certification authority under the rules adopted by the Washington state board of registration for professional engineers and land surveyors, and can import electronic files into an imaging system, the auditor may accept for recording electronic versions of the documents required by this chapter. The electronic version shall be a standard raster file format acceptable to the county.


                    (7) This section does not supersede other existing recording statutes.


                    [1999 c 39 § 2; 1973 c 50 § 11.]


                    There you go Carol...You want valid proof...read

                    Where would the auditor appear, ON BEHALF OF THE COUNTY IN A PROFESSIONAL ROLE, on the TV and Radio...and go on and on and on about these poor horses, terrible abuse (not neglect), breeders should be stopped...etc..

                    There is NOTHING in the Duties that would allow that.

                    As a private citizen...sure but she is appearing on behalf of the county..

                    THAT is what is confusing people who live in that county and also the surrounding counties.

                    I sent the copy of the post from the person who states they live at the next farm...

                    A couple of questions....why had no one spoken with the Doctors about the conditions? Where is the proof the AASPCA has been notified and never acted? (have someone checking with them) and as was pointed out...anyone can go onto a forum and say...I live next door to the President and I saw him strike his daughter...doesn't mean there is any validity...
                    The Elephant in the room

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Perhaps the video of the seizure and conditions is being held from the public due to the legal actions that will take place over the animals ownership? Darn that legal stuff.

                      Fairfax-- do you live in Pierce County? Washington state? I'm curious, you seem very upset by this, as if you are somehow connected to the people involved. Or, do you simply have an ax to grind over some perceived slight from AC in your background? Or, perhaps, your tinfoil hat is not longer working?
                      Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Calvincrowe View Post
                        Fairfax-- I don't know you..never met you. I am not "Carol", have no mare and foal. Based on your inability to follow a thread, conversation or what have you, I don't believe a word you type. Give it a rest.

                        I'd rather the "authorities" step in BEFORE tragedy strikes to secure the welfare of animals or people, then after the fact when folks stand around shaking their heads and bemoaning the fact that the "authorities" didn't "do something".

                        And many of the photos/video of horses in clean stalls are from the fairgrounds where the horses were removed to, not from the farm they were taken from.

                        Our local AC works hard to educate horse owners, and will place horses in foster to safeguard them before returning them to their owners, if they prove to have means and ability to care for their animals. If they don't then the horses are put up for adoption.


                        Gosh,...you could have fooled me...okay...you don't own horses...I can guy that

                        Gosh..that sure sounds like her and her accusations and funny that you are in Wa state...hmmm..okay

                        Don't believe anything I type. Don't believe anything I provide links to. Put me on ignore..

                        It does NOT deaden the stench from this seizure....Having done this since 75 one gets a "nose" for it...good seizure and bad seizure...

                        Ah...the grey mare was shown in the photo credited to taking her out of the farm stall...that said...cleanest bunch of horses I have ever seen when one claims they have been in the stalls for months...no water..(how did they live?)

                        YOU have an agenda...Gosh...you are already talking about putting them up for adoption BEFORE A TRIAL...

                        It is not what you want...it must be determined BY THE LAW...or..like so many other a/c's trained by HSUS and corrupt rescues...this is appearing to be more and more about money again...

                        So...why is YOUR county auditor doing the guest talk rounds?

                        I follow the thread and the conversation.. Doesn't mean I have to believe bull poop when I see it coming at all of us.

                        Many of us have seen similar cases and we do see patterns. Doesn't mean we are always correct...but most certainly it does mean we have every reason to be wary.

                        This one has been an overkill from day one...
                        The Elephant in the room

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Calvincrowe View Post
                          Perhaps the video of the seizure and conditions is being held from the public due to the legal actions that will take place over the animals ownership? Darn that legal stuff.

                          Fairfax-- do you live in Pierce County? Washington state? I'm curious, you seem very upset by this, as if you are somehow connected to the people involved. Or, do you simply have an ax to grind over some perceived slight from AC in your background? Or, perhaps, your tinfoil hat is not longer working?

                          THANK YOU...the minute someone refers to the tin foil hat I know where you are coming from.

                          No..I don't live in the county and I don't know the people however I have been involved in rescue for a very very long time

                          No slight regarding A/C's and I am ALWAYS happy when I find one who has FORMAL training.

                          You will be unable to discredit me...but good luck trying.

                          A video of the seizure is fine. No one complains about that as long as it has been examined for editing.

                          The newspapers have printed pictures of the horses...obviously they have had sufficient nutrition.

                          Hooves...not show quality but not out of regular for many owners at this time of year...many wait until October before having a "final cut"...

                          And yes..it will be interesting to see how this transpires. Also will be interested to see if DEA found anything illegal..and if not...maybe this is all they can hit them on.

                          Too many cooks from too many agencies involved in this seizure.
                          The Elephant in the room

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Seriously--I am not "Carol"...I own horses, live in the Vancouver, WA area, have no connection to AC, LE, rescues or you. In fact, my first name is Anne.

                            A horse can be in good weight and still be in an abusive situation. Not the only indicator of neglect or abuse, certainly. You simply come across as angry, combative and "in the know" when I'm not sure you are. An elderly veterinarian neighbor is not a valid source for me of the total situation. I frankly don't care who owned them, how old the owners are, what they were busted for--the conditions that I've seen on news video and photos were certainly not safe, healthy and were putting animals at risk. I'll trust the LE of the area to follow the law.

                            The Auditor is simply doing the political talk for the county--she didn't instigate the seizure, but would hold the checkbook so to speak. Animal control is always woefully underfunded, and often solicits donations and volunteers to help with seizures, fosters and other needs. If we, as horse owners, want abusive situations rectified, then we must step up and help fund and provide oversight for agencies.
                            Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Well, I can kinda buy the horses not being utterly filthy despite horrid stall conditions too. Like the "9 hour round up time" again, based on my own experience with one situation so feel free to take it for what it's worth. Those 14 I hauled out in one day, came out of a barn with about a foot of manure packed in the stalls so similar situation although the barn I dealt with wasn't flooded on top of everything else.

                              Many of the horses *appeared* fairly clean. Some you could tell were only laying on one side, they'd look perfectly clean from one side but on the other they'd be filthy. Some had clean sides but if you looked under their bellies they were covered in caked manure. A few others looked as though they had not been laying down at all. Very few had snarls in their manes, they weren't rubbing on anything to knot them up.

                              With the barn having all that standing water in it I'd think it would be less likely they'd be laying down increasing the likelihood their bodies wouldn't be covered in filth. The back stalls of the barn I board at has flooded on occasion over the years and I cannot recall one instance of a horse laying down in a stall with water in it (but in all fairness probably not the best comparison as we always moved them as soon as the flooding happened).

                              But back to the thought that those horses are too "clean" to have come out of a barn with a foot of manure in it...well here are a few of the horses I took out of darn near the same circumstances. I took the pics, within minutes of taking them out of the stalls or immediately upon unloading them at their new place.
                              http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/y...pqscan0006.jpg
                              http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/y...ncy/Fancy2.jpg
                              http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/...scan0024-1.jpg
                              http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/y...iafrs122/4.jpg
                              http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/y...n0001-Copy.jpg

                              They aren't exactly clean but they aren't exactly covered head to toe in manure either.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                I hiave been asking individuals about the ankle deep urine you speak about that flowed into the aisleway. The volume of urine would have to be so very great (not just over a long time as it would seep into the ground) that it would mean the fronts of the stalls would have to open up and it would have to flow into the aisle.

                                The age "60" to anyone who is 20 is ancient..however I am 62..and I take care of 12 Saddlebreds here and up to 50 dogs in the kennel. I know others who are in their 60's and have 75 horses.; .. again no problems so the age is a herring.

                                You say 3 feet of compacted manure and straw and yet NOT ONE HORSE taken out of a stall had manure stains nor tail and mane mats (this was posted by a person who "observed" the rescue.

                                No where have I heard them mention THRUSH which would be evident (and is usually tossed out by rescue groups) if the horses had been in all of the time.

                                I do agree that it would appear conditions and numbers were not good however this whole operation, directed by the D.E.A., verbal input by the county auditor and the "rescue" group who have been under investigation themselves for some allegedly unique dealings doesn't add up.

                                Take a look at what you have typed. 3 feet of compacted manure in the stalls and yet you also claim they were ankle deep in so much urine it flowed into the aisle .....

                                If they had no water...dead birds (possible as I found one in the trough yesterday) there should be evidence of dead horses...and yet...none were found...photographed...and evidence paraded.

                                I think you do have an agenda and that would be the rescue your Aunt works for...you know...the one with the shady dealings..

                                There is too much build up too quickly and too much instand publicity with everyone, doe eyed, saying this is the worst they have ever seen in their years with rescue, county..

                                AND NO FOALS ON THE GROUND but you claim all of these stallions around.

                                I don't buy it...I do believe there are problems but I do not believe your little stories...to me...more propoganda.
                                Have you been to this farm recently? Have you walked through the barn and peered into the stalls? Have you actually been there? Or do you think you can do an unbiased investigation and state the facts based on that based on publicly available information while ignoring the input of a neighbor whe seems intimately familiar with the situation?

                                I could care less about whether it was urine running out of the stalls or a broken pipe.

                                I have seen grey horses, standing in hard packed shit of a stall that had not been cleaned for months and months. Young colts, not covered in piss stains because they simply never laid down. And on the surface, because they are young, look to be in nice shape despite tangles mains and crummy feet. They were easy keepers and given enough calories to maintain their weight but they were living in a prison in horrible, horrible conditions.

                                You could have turned thee horses loose and taken photo's and some jackass like you would insist that they are intimately familiar with these types of cases and maybe also knows the breeder to be reputable and insist that based on all your years of experience you are able to determine that the horses were unfairly removed. Geesh. Give me a break.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Well this thread sure devolved into a trainwreck in a hurry, didn't it!

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by sketcher View Post
                                    You could have turned thee horses loose and taken photo's and some jackass like you would insist that they are intimately familiar with these types of cases and maybe also knows the breeder to be reputable and insist that based on all your years of experience you are able to determine that the horses were unfairly removed. Geesh. Give me a break.


                                    We need a like button, BIG TIME.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by RedmondDressage View Post
                                      Well this thread sure devolved into a trainwreck in a hurry, didn't it!


                                      We can speculate all we want. Some of us are leaning towards one end of the spectrum, others obviously to the other end. Personally I'm staying out of the whole "seizure was hinky" debate. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, I dunno enough to make a judgement call and I'm not seeing enough hard facts one way or the other to begin to decide.

                                      That barn was disgusting though and there is no way around that. No horses, no animals at all should have been housed in it for any reason until it was cleaned up. That's just a no-brainer. In my area, what I've seen local AC do in similar circumstances, I don't think the condition of that barn would have gotten the horses seized. More likely (and this is just what I've seen go on in my own area) the owner would be given a warning to rectify the problem and a follow-up visit. If horses were seized simply based on dirty barn conditions around here my first thought would be wow, that escalated quickly! Then again around here AC isn't very proactive, if there is food and water around they just dish out warnings till the cows come home or someone slips pics of dead horses to the media.

                                      That being said I'm not willing to jump on the "hinky seizure" bandwagon. I know other ACs are more proactive than my local one and we really don't have all the facts, or many at all really. Sounds like there was a lot more at play here with the DEA and drug warrants and what-not.

                                      One fact we do have is that news video showing conditions in the barn. And that was just NASTY. As for the rest we don't have enough proof either way to make any concrete judgements IMO.

                                      All in all if the owners couldn't/wouldn't get those horses out of that disgusting barn then yeah, I wouldn't condemn them for removing them. I don't care who's married to the sheriff. Those conditions were unacceptable.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        According to NBC the DEA were doing an ongoing investigation and "discovered" the horses in the barn. They contacted A/C and within 24 hours had started an UNWARRANTED seizure. There was no warning letter and no opportunity to "correct" any situation.

                                        I am sure there are many sides..however I am unable to find the credentials on the A/C for that county. Maybe those who live in the area can let me know FORMAL education rather than just "i loved horsey's all my life"

                                        This head on newsconference ongoing assault USUALLY means there is something else going on.

                                        If I learn more...I will post..
                                        The Elephant in the room

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          A blast from the past regarding Fairfax. This is Fairfax's "rescue".

                                          http://chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347389

                                          Leo says he's not involved with ARM, but he's listed on their website. From the thread:
                                          "Yeah, well, except you're listed on their website as more than a donor. You're listed as a "Regional Representative". Since when does donating some books to an auction earn a public listing as a "regional representative"? Is that their general practice, to give titles and public recognition of those titles to everyone who donates a few items? If so, are the other "regional representatives" listed with you also simply people who donated an item to an auction? Or are you the only non-regional representative listed as a regional representative on their "Who We Are" page?

                                          ARM Directors & FAQs



                                          Terry Figueroa, Founder, President, COO

                                          Jeff Mosher, VP, CEO

                                          Kristen Yiengst, VP-Marketing, Secretary & Massage Therapist

                                          Karen McDowall, VP Finance, Treasurer

                                          Jen Urksa, Foster Committee Chair

                                          Ray Urksa, Transport Committee Chair



                                          REGIONAL REPRESENTATIVES

                                          Karen McDowall - NC

                                          DJ Sheldon - NY State (Lk.George area)

                                          Michelle Goza, Kaylene Prather - AL

                                          Lynnette Yunker - WA

                                          Peggy Ingles - VA, Receipts Coordinator

                                          DeEttah Houts - MN

                                          Jeff Mosher - KY

                                          Dean Hennings - OH (Cleveland Area)

                                          Tawni Schwochow, Kelly Askins - OH (NW)

                                          MaryEllen Fox - TN

                                          Susan Maier - ND, SD

                                          Ray & Jen Urksa - W.PA, Transport & Foster Coordinators

                                          Jen Polasky - C.PA, QT Coordinator

                                          Kristiina Burkhart - MI, Community Outreach Program (Midwest)

                                          Vanessa Rosado - IN. Project Coordinator-Fundraising

                                          Tyler Isenman - MN, Project Consultant

                                          Elinor Schultz - Poconos PA, Fundraising Coordinator

                                          Leo Maxwell, Investigative Services Director, Int'l Rep

                                          No involvement? Other than to support their efforts with your good thoughts? Really?"

                                          Comment

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