Fed Up, WWYD?

[ptownevt]

Um, did you mean to post that last post on your alter?

Guess I blew that whole alter thing, huh? Oh, well.

[sketcher]

Guess I blew that whole alter thing, huh? Oh, well.

Alters are too much of a hassle.

[babyeventer23]

I have been in similar situations before. Whoever said it was right - someone always enda up feeling taken advantage of. I now have my own working boarder, and we put the exact agreement in writing from the get-go so there would be little room for miscommunication.

Is your trainer approachable to talk to? You really need to.start there. I had one trainer situation where lessons were always falling to the wayside. However, every time I brought it up she made an effort. She genuinely told me that she just needed to be pinned down to get it done - and when I did my part of pressing the issue it was always fine. Communication is huge - maybe approach it as the concerned mom, worrying that your daughter is taking on too much and losing motivation without the reward of her lessons, etc.

Good luck!!!

[BeeHoney]

Your daughter is learning an incredibly important life lesson. There are lots of people in the world who are thrilled to take advantage of others, and learning how to not be "used" or taken advantage of by others is an important life skill.

Your daughter is 15. Instead of "Momma Bear" intervening, I think your daughter is the one who needs to have a conversation with her trainer. You might be the one who has to tell your daughter that she has to do this, but it is your daughter's job and she should be the one to speak to her employer.

Now, that having been said, I think it is worth mentioning that it is typically NOT the least bit advantageous for trainers and BO's to have people working off lessons and board. Most trainers and BOs are running businesses that rely on an influx of actual cash. It sounds to me like you may have pressured the trainer into this arrangement. Also keep in mind that some parents want their teenagers "working" out at the barn more to keep them occupied and for them to learn more about horses rather than to make money. I'm not defending it, but because so many young people want summer jobs at the barn it is pretty common for young people to work for practically nothing in these types of arrangements.

Additionally, it has been my experience that young people who work around horses and in barns generally overestimate the value of what they do. Typical young people are significantly less productive and useful than regular f/t adult employees. They think they deserve the same hourly pay rate as the other barn staff, but in reality they are taking twice as long to do the stalls, plus they often are cherry-picking easier tasks and leaving the hay-stacking and weed-eating for others. This may not apply to your daughter, I'm just putting it out there.

Lastly, if you have some financial limitations, it really isn't your trainer's responsibility to help you find a way to keep doing the horse thing the way you and your daughter want to. It's clear to me that either you and your daughter need look towards finding another way to make some extra money, or potentially need to downsize what you are doing with your horses.

Your daughter sounds like a wonderful young person with an excellent sense of responsibility and a great worth ethic. In another type of job I'm sure her efforts would be tremendously appreciated. And you sound like a great mom, even if you are "just the mom"

[Superminion]

I'm going to step in here. I left it overnight, in hopes that I would cool down a little bit, but sadly, that is not the case. Seems to me that some information is being left out of this whole conversation.

1. I'm the worker that got 'paid well' to stay on the property while BO was gone and did a fraction of the work, apparently. The farm became my responsibility. If anything were to go wrong, it would fall on my shoulders. Any decisions that were to be made in the BO's absence were mine. I had to deal with any and all situations that arose while BO was gone and oftentimes unreachable, equine realted or otherwise. I also had the responsibility of taking care of BO's personal pets and home. OP's DD got to leave early if she wanted to (which she did some afternoons) and was able to ride the entire time BO was gone. DD was not asked to take on any extra projects.

2. I was present for every set of afternoon chores and checked in often during morning chores. Often leaving my daughter with my mother, so that things could have my entire attention. DH also came and helped out every evening that he could. When OP's horse decided that water drinking was overrated, I made the effort to stay on top of the situation, including checking on him late at night, and following the OP's direction of how she wanted to remedy the situation.

3. BO has given OP's daughter the ride on her very nice FEI mare, when DD's horse came up lame. While BO was out of country, she gave DD free rein with mare, and also the chance to qualify for Regionals on the mare, if needed. DD was ALSO given free rein with a very nice youngster that is coming into work.

4. BO was out of the country for 10 days, home for 4, then off to a horse show. In the days that BO was home, OP's daugher was off for the week. How is that time to get the lessons that she earned?

5. BO gave the OP's daughter her current schoolmaster free and clear. OP knows how expensive horses are, and took the horse anyways. It is a wonderful oppurtunity for her daughter to own a horse of such experience. Horse is easily worth five figures.

6. OP brought second horse back to the BO's barn, even though she had a home situation for him.

7. It's not really anybodies business who pays what for board. When you are in a boarding situation, working off an amount is great, but in owning horses you have to be prepared to pay for them. We would not have taken her, if we weren't able to comfortably afford her. BO has been upfront about any situations reagarding my mare, and now that she has multiple medical needs, they are being met without hesitation. I have never seen her ignore a request made by an owner.

8. The horse industry is hard work if you don't have money. BO's barn chores are not difficult and she is not a heathen task master. One person could accomplish them in about 2 hours, by themselves. I have done it often. OP's daughter was often provided with lunch when she didn't pack it for the day, and BO always keeps her health and saftey at the forefront. BO provided her with rides home when needed. When a clinician had flown in, her daughter was given the chance to audit as many lessons as she wanted to. Lessons with clinician were given to OP's daughter by the BO for her birthday.

9. BO has been dealing with problems, that sometimes prevent her from doing chores. BO has other people that come in to help with am chores everyday of the week. Sometimes there are emergencies that prevent the second person from being there, but that's life.

I have been taken advantage of in a work for board situation, and it's not fun. I have been with BO for 5 years now, and never had that feeling. Maybe I'm just grateful for the things that she's done for me, and realize that the horse industry isn't full of warm fuzzies and that she has gone above and beyond for me and others. There are so many much worse situations out there, that I've been in.

I hate to see this BO talked down about, because she does not deserve it.

[JackieBlue]

The issue is that we are stretched beyond the breaking point financially. That is why we have always worked toward our board, both DD and I. I knew that trainer had made very generous agreements with most of those who rode/boarded with her. Knowing full well that we depend on being able to work to help with board, trainer did not tell me that none of DD's work would be credited toward board until after the horse was moved to her barn. When she did, she lied and told me that she never lets anyone work off board when she had previously told me what the agreements were with the other boarders. At the same time DD really has no access to money from any other sources. Summer jobs are hard to find, but it wasn't even attempted so she could work for trainer all day every day. I could probably deal with it if DD was getting the agreed upon compensation, a lesson every day and supervised time working with the young horses. This does not happen every day. I guess the straw was this 10 day vacation where DD worked like a dog for nothing and the other worker was paid well for a fraction of what DD did. Then I see the other worker online going on and on and on about how wonderful and generous trainer is to her, which I know is true.

So, trainer told you no one is allowed to work off board after she'd already told you her arrangements with other boarders. I get that. And then you said.....what? If you said, "Oh, okay." Then you made your bed. That must be pretty much how it went, otherwise your story would be different. And your daughter works "all day, everyday" for the trainer in exchange for A lesson and supervised rides on young horses?? Well, if the lesson is an hour, we can assume total time to be ~2 hours, including tacking up and cooling out time. How many young horses? A reasonable guess there would be at least an hour per horse with tacking and cooling f she's only hacking, 1.5+ if she jumps. Let's go with just 2 young horses, since you did use the plural and we'll go with the lower estimate of an hour per. Now we're at 4 hours of riding, assuming no bubble baths are given, tack cleaned, etc... Then there's the unavoidable time for lunch......
My point is, the arrangement and your description of the circumstances seem odd. First, if the arrangement is as you've described, then the trainer has agreed to stand out in her ring teaching/watching your daughter for upwards of 3 hours per day! Maybe trainer rides at same time as your dd?
Either way, your daughter expects (per arrangement described) to ride for multiple hours per day. There are only so many hours in a given day, so this means that hours left for work are limited, so "working all day" means different things depending on amount of time spent riding.
I guess, having been a BO and a trainer, and now being a mom myself, I've learned that parents don't tend to have the most......dispassionate perspective on their children's activities. Add in some financial pressure and even the Dalai Lama can be made to appear overbearing and unfair.

OP, if you're unhappy with the current care and training, why have your horses not been moved? It seems that perhaps moving is not an option for you, in which case you will have to adjust your view of the current situation in one way or another or your obvious displeasure might take the whole moving decision out of your hands anyway.

[JackieBlue]

I'm going to step in here. I left it overnight, in hopes that I would cool down a little bit, but sadly, that is not the case. Seems to me that some information is being left out of this whole conversation.

1. I'm the worker that got 'paid well' to stay on the property while BO was gone and did a fraction of the work, apparently. The farm became my responsibility. If anything were to go wrong, it would fall on my shoulders. Any decisions that were to be made in the BO's absence were mine. I had to deal with any and all situations that arose while BO was gone and oftentimes unreachable, equine realted or otherwise. I also had the responsibility of taking care of BO's personal pets and home. OP's DD got to leave early if she wanted to (which she did some afternoons) and was able to ride the entire time BO was gone. DD was not asked to take on any extra projects.

2. I was present for every set of afternoon chores and checked in often during morning chores. Often leaving my daughter with my mother, so that things could have my entire attention. DH also came and helped out every evening that he could. When OP's horse decided that water drinking was overrated, I made the effort to stay on top of the situation, including checking on him late at night, and following the OP's direction of how she wanted to remedy the situation.

3. BO has given OP's daughter the ride on her very nice FEI mare, when DD's horse came up lame. While BO was out of country, she gave DD free rein with mare, and also the chance to qualify for Regionals on the mare, if needed. DD was ALSO given free rein with a very nice youngster that is coming into work.

4. BO was out of the country for 10 days, home for 4, then off to a horse show. In the days that BO was home, OP's daugher was off for the week. How is that time to get the lessons that she earned?

5. BO gave the OP's daughter her current schoolmaster free and clear. OP knows how expensive horses are, and took the horse anyways. It is a wonderful oppurtunity for her daughter to own a horse of such experience. Horse is easily worth five figures.

6. OP brought second horse back to the BO's barn, even though she had a home situation for him.

7. It's not really anybodies business who pays what for board. When you are in a boarding situation, working off an amount is great, but in owning horses you have to be prepared to pay for them. We would not have taken her, if we weren't able to comfortably afford her. BO has been upfront about any situations reagarding my mare, and now that she has multiple medical needs, they are being met without hesitation. I have never seen her ignore a request made by an owner.

8. The horse industry is hard work if you don't have money. BO's barn chores are not difficult and she is not a heathen task master. One person could accomplish them in about 2 hours, by themselves. I have done it often. OP's daughter was often provided with lunch when she didn't pack it for the day, and BO always keeps her health and saftey at the forefront. BO provided her with rides home when needed. When a clinician had flown in, her daughter was given the chance to audit as many lessons as she wanted to. Lessons with clinician were given to OP's daughter by the BO for her birthday.

9. BO has been dealing with problems, that sometimes prevent her from doing chores. BO has other people that come in to help with am chores everyday of the week. Sometimes there are emergencies that prevent the second person from being there, but that's life.

I have been taken advantage of in a work for board situation, and it's not fun. I have been with BO for 5 years now, and never had that feeling. Maybe I'm just grateful for the things that she's done for me, and realize that the horse industry isn't full of warm fuzzies and that she has gone above and beyond for me and others. There are so many much worse situations out there, that I've been in.

I hate to see this BO talked down about, because she does not deserve it.

And this just confirms what I was getting at - we don't know the whole story, so to jump on the trainer bashing bandwagon is unfair, to say the least.

[FalseImpression]

I had guessed who the well paid worker was and figured it was just a matter of time until we heard the other side of the story....
Good luck getting out of that one with your relationship with your daughter intact!!! Never mind the trainer...

[Alagirl]

well, the 'when BO was home the kid was not' is really no excuse to not compensate her for the work done. That's what Dead Presidents are for and they work really well for that.

[Eleanor]

So you are driving to the farm twice a day to drop off and pick up your DD. I would let your DD know that as of Aug 1st. you can no longer drive her to the trainers barn all the time. The cost of gas is just to high to be driving all over the place. You will driver her over once (or twice you deside) and any other times she (DD) will have to pay for the gas. The one time you will haul the horse for the lesson.

This will put it in DD's court to under stand that she needs to be paid for the work or she will have to get another job to pay for the gas. It also makes it that she has to get her lesson because the horse is there.

Please under stand that this is what I would do. You do what is right for you and DD.

[Trixie]

It's not really anybodies business who pays what for board. When you are in a boarding situation, working off an amount is great, but in owning horses you have to be prepared to pay for them.

This. OP, unless you have an agreement in writing for working off board, there should be no expectation that you can "work off board." Horses are a business and the BO has bills to pay to support that business. If she lets you work off board, she's doing you a favor. It may be a mutually beneficial favor, but it's still a favor.

It sounds like you may wish to clarify your agreement, but frankly, it doesn't sound as if you're being egregiously taken advantage of. A 15 year old kid might be helpful but is not the same thing as a responsible adult from an employment perspective.

I'm sorry you're stretched to the breaking point financially, but that isn't the barn owner's problem and they have absolutely no obligation to make things easier for you. For the most part, the profit margin on boarding is low to nonexistent and most barns make their real money on lessons, training, and horse sales. This may be why BO is willing to pay DD in lessons, but not in board.

[JackieBlue]

well, the 'when BO was home the kid was not' is really no excuse to not compensate her for the work done. That's what Dead Presidents are for and they work really well for that.

But if the agreement was "work for lessons", then that's the agreement. If there was no previous stipulation that money would be paid if Sweetypie isn't around for lessons, then no one should be expecting payment. Agreement was "work for lessons", DD was unavailable, disinterested or whathaveyou when trainer returned from her trip. Seems like lessons will have to be put off.

[Kryswyn]

So DD worked 8 days, was not available during the 4 days BO was home between her trip and the show. I assume the BO came back after the show. What's to prevent DD from having those lessons now? It's not like they expire. Even if there was a usual practice of 'do the work, take the lesson in the week you work' I'm sure an exception could be made in this instance.

Frankly I'm having trouble with the whole work for pay thing. When I was a teenager I hot walked polo ponies two days a week before and after going away for summer camp. Maybe I got $5 each afternoon? Anyway, I know I felt the money was nice, but I'd have done it for nothing just to be around the horses.

The summer I was 17 I had access to a car and didn't go away to camp. I was offered the chance to go to the polo barn every morning and ride the ponies and hang around and help clean tack, groom, load up and go to the games IN THE TRUCK! I became trusted enough to be 'loaned out' with the sale ponies, getting the players mounted for every chukker as well as hot walking (as much as possible in the 7 minutes between remounting the player. I think I got $20 a game? Doesn't matter. I was learning so much, about polo, about horses, about life I should've paid them. So I'm thinking your daughter is getting a great deal.

Instead of telling her, why not ask her if she's feeling abused. Ask her if she's thinks she's giving more than she's getting. If she says yes, well you have plenty of advice of what to do next. If she says no, you might want to think about if she has a crush on her trainer. Teens will do anything for a crush (you might remember this) and like with boyfriends in the future, anything you say that's negative will only alienate her from you.

[Alagirl]

But if the agreement was "work for lessons", then that's the agreement. If there was no previous stipulation that money would be paid if Sweetypie isn't around for lessons, then no one should be expecting payment. Agreement was "work for lessons", DD was unavailable, disinterested or whathaveyou when trainer returned from her trip. Seems like lessons will have to be put off.

Lessons have a $$ value. If the value (lesson) cannot be supplied, there is equal compensation available.

[HenryisBlaisin']

But, OP, why does it bother you if kiddo entered into a deal and isn't getting a fair shake? Does she know that? Has she asked you for help? If your kid asks you to pay for lessons that she was supposed to earn, I see your point. But otherwise, is this really about the money? Could your kid at 15 be gainfully employed elsewhere? Do you want her to get that "real job" in order to help with the horse bills?

IMO, it's good for kids to get jobs and figure out how to do them (or to quit if the boss is no good), and to do this well before they get to college. Let DD figure it out, OP!

150% THIS! As hard as it is for you as a parent, this is between DD and her employer. If she feels that she is beiing treated unfairly, she needs to speak up or quit. Perhaps she (quite possibly very rightfully) feels that the experience she is gaining is valuable compensation for some of her time. When I was her age, I'd have happily worked a couple of days a week at a barn for nothing simply because of the opportunity to be around horses and learn from them! Getting extra lessons would have simply been icing.

Plus, if DD goes to college, it's likely that she will need an internship to graduate. Most internships are either unpaid or pay a very small stipend, far below what the same company would pay if they hired someone instead of having an intern. Will you be complaining about how she's getting cheated then, or will you be okay with it because it's in her chosen field and she's getting valuable experience? Try looking at her horse work the same way-every minute with horses is a learning experience that is of benefit.

If DD is unhappy with her arrangement, then SHE needs to speak with the trainer. Doing it for her is the worst thing you can do. Too many kids are growing up with "helicopter parents" who swoop in the second they think child isn't getting the best of everything, and these kids have no idea how to cope with real problems themselves. Do DD a favor and let her decide what's working for her and what she's willing to do. If the trainer really is bad news, she will come to see that. For now, if DD is happy, let her work if she wants to; as long as she isn't neglecting other responsibilities, working harder than you maybe should have to to get ahead is a very valuable lesson in the reality of the real world.

[Alagirl]

150% THIS! As hard as it is for you as a parent, this is between DD and her employer. If she feels that she is beiing treated unfairly, she needs to speak up or quit. Perhaps she (quite possibly very rightfully) feels that the experience she is gaining is valuable compensation for some of her time. When I was her age, I'd have happily worked a couple of days a week at a barn for nothing simply because of the opportunity to be around horses and learn from them! Getting extra lessons would have simply been icing.

Plus, if DD goes to college, it's likely that she will need an internship to graduate. Most internships are either unpaid or pay a very small stipend, far below what the same company would pay if they hired someone instead of having an intern. Will you be complaining about how she's getting cheated then, or will you be okay with it because it's in her chosen field and she's getting valuable experience? Try looking at her horse work the same way-every minute with horses is a learning experience that is of benefit.

If DD is unhappy with her arrangement, then SHE needs to speak with the trainer. Doing it for her is the worst thing you can do. Too many kids are growing up with "helicopter parents" who swoop in the second they think child isn't getting the best of everything, and these kids have no idea how to cope with real problems themselves. Do DD a favor and let her decide what's working for her and what she's willing to do. If the trainer really is bad news, she will come to see that. For now, if DD is happy, let her work if she wants to; as long as she isn't neglecting other responsibilities, working harder than you maybe should have to to get ahead is a very valuable lesson in the reality of the real world.

Well if you do an internship you know from the beginning you won't be paid.

and the child is a minor, so it's not between just her and the BO.

[ReSomething]

And why in Heaven's name would you throw that little gem into the mix? This will help the daughter exactly how? Oy.
Dee

I'd have said sell your own horse too, trust me, it just wasn't part of the OP.

When times are tight you can't keep going on with expenses.

As the parent of a 16 year old who is on her learner's permit so all the expenses of going somewhere fall on me I've blown up about plans my DD has made to go here and there more than once.
I don't think I'd care if DD was "volunteering" or getting paid - but what I meant in my last post was that my DD understands the value of money to her, and would quit if she wasn't getting the lessons - if that was what mattered to her. If she wanted to be at the barn and socialize some and work with the horses she might not care about the reward of lessons, but at that point it hinges around my having to drive her to the barn.
If she put together an independent way of getting to the barn I'd be OK with that, but then I'd be looking at how she is 16, she could be getting a job, she could be buying her own clothes and supplies and contributing towards her horse's upkeep.

Would I sit down and point all this out to her? Darn tootin' I would.

Really, OP has to decide what she is going to do based on her own family's situation.
She also has to separate this issue of her DD from the horse care issue although between the two issues they might spell moving time.

[Superminion]

well, the 'when BO was home the kid was not' is really no excuse to not compensate her for the work done. That's what Dead Presidents are for and they work really well for that.

BO still at the horse show. She hasn't even been home 8 full days yet, so it's not like OP's DD was pushed aside again and again.

[Alagirl]

BO still at the horse show. She hasn't even been home 8 full days yet, so it's not like OP's DD was pushed aside again and again.

Well, it seems to me that the BO rubs the OP the wrong way. Happens. Might not be anything glaringly wrong, but there it is. The little things add up.

but as professional you can always contact the other party 'hey, sucks that we can't make it this week, we got the lessons on the book' before you leave for another trip. Did it happen?
Who knows. teens are notorious for not relaying messages. But I am guessing there is more to the OPs story than even your side.

But I am guessing since the cat is out of the bag now, it will only be a matter of time until things come to a head at the barn.

(btw, how is your knee doing?)

[ptownevt]

I have tried multiple times to work this out with trainer with no success. Horses are moving August 1.

Keep in mind that Superminion knows where her bread is buttered. Perhaps she should not be quite so out there with how wonderfully generous trainer is to her. I won't get into it with her here because there's no point. Just one item, trainer did not give five figure schoolmaster to DD. Trainer was supposed to sell schoolmaster but did not accomplish that. Horse was given to DD as she had been riding him for about a year of that time.