Looking for honest opinions

[Lynnwood]

Whoa, back up the bus. Wasn't Bayou Bengal the one with the skinny black Percheron that she drove into town to give carriage rides to the public???

She does have an older black Perch but trolling aside the horse is in good current condition.

[Kwill]

I don't quite get it. The general public doesn't know one horse from another ... let alone what harness is good or bad or if the driver is in correct livery.. so it would have to be an internal thing amongst carraige drivers that you are proposing. I am not sure what the purpose would be, really, to create more rules and ratings and things, other than for safety -- and aren't the carraiges already regulated for safety and overseen by municipalities?

As far as I can tell, you want carraige drivers to voluntarily sign up for this best practices organization, and could display something on their carriage that was a seal of approval? And I suppose you would inspect these people on a regular basis, and take away their status, or whatever, if they didn't meet the standards, or not grant it at all if they applied and didn't measure up? So the general public would have to be educated, and I am not sure how that would be possible...or if people wanting one carraige ride once in their lives would care?

Who would be the judge of these things? What would their credentials be? This would have national, and local chapters?

I think it's pretty ambitious, at the very least. It's a good idea, but implementation would be very difficult, in my opinion. I am not sure what would motivate people to sign up, or how the general public could be made to see that there were gradations of public livery drivers.

[Sithly]

She does have an older black Perch but trolling aside the horse is in good current condition.

Yet she was out giving public carriage rides when the horse was in poor condition.

How does that quote go? "Often we fault in others what we see in ourselves."

[Lynnwood]

Yet she was out giving public carriage rides when the horse was in poor condition.

How does that quote go? "Often we fault in others what we see in ourselves."

See and I thought you'd pick the one about glass houses

[BelgianHalfDrafts]

Something is definitely altered on the 2nd photo.

[bayou_bengal]

Here an album with a photo of my "skinny" horse Dixie taken the afternoon after the market day where I GAVE rides that morning to the public (three or four people rode not all at one time) as a favor to the manager of the Main Street Program-- no one was charged for a ride, but two people offered donations or tips. She had been here 65 days by then.

You could feel her ribs if you ran your hand over her sides, but you could not see them like you can on the photos of the two horses that the OP posted.

She didn't do her first commercial --paid for job-- until six months after she arrived here. I have four horses here that can be driven.

I was told over and over by my vet as well as other draft horse people that because Dixie was 20, I would never be able to make that "hollow" along her back go away-- that was just how older drafts looked. This hollow was not a "shelf" but a hollow that ran from right behind her withers to a third of the way along her spine very close to the spine itself-- not seven or eight inches out from her spine.

There is also a close-up of her withers and back taken just last week for comparison.

I have also copied the photos of the two horses that are from the animal rights activists' pages and have been discussed all over facebook over and over They are in with hers so you all can compare all you all want.I hope this link works becaue I am not that good with links.

http://s1155.photobucket.com/albums/...oubengalfirst/

[Go Fish]

I don't need any background info, and I don't care if the OP has an agenda, the horses are skinny. Especially that last picture.

The photos may or may not be photoshopped, but those horses aren't just ribby. They both show signs of poor body score around the tail dock, wither, behind the wither and just generally look to be in overall poor health. Someone could also use some lessons in grooming and overall care.

I'm surprised by some posters on this thread that in any way, shape or form are trying to defend the condition of these horses. You can't photoshop all of what I see to be horses in pretty bad shape, at least by my definition of well fed, well groomed and well cared-for horses.

[cloudyandcallie]

IBTL

While we are on the subject of carriage owners, has anyone other than a carriage driver/owner seen michaleenflynn's operation up close and personal?

I know that when my friend's mother was a city councilwoman in Atlanta, she found all kinds of problems with carriage horse operators there. One example being a guy who fed his drafts only moldy bread that he got free from merchants. Of course that problem was solved when he was convicted of rape and went to jail.

Before everyone jumps on the michaleenflynn's bandwagon (old movie actress name btw), make sure she takes care of her horses and isn't one more internet persona.

We all outted bayou bengal on several threads months ago. Michaleenflynn chose to ignore that since they were joined in opposition to people who want more oversight on carriage owners. Now they've had the falling out, so maybe someone will tell us all if michaleenflynn takes good care of her horses.........or not.

I guess everyone can go back to drinking Coke........since Coca-Cola USA, the parent company that people want boycotted, is NOT sponsoring the TWH celebration.

Beware of whom you support. I learned that when I supported coth's favorite rescue and then found out somethings that were really bad, including the multiple sling donations.

As for carriage companies, some are good and some are bad. Beware whom you support. A feed store owner here in Savannah used to drive for a carriage company. When her horse started tying up, the company told her to drive it back to the barn. They didn't make it as the horse collapsed and died. Another carriage owner here takes care of his horses and rotates them downtown and at his farm for RNR.

[sketcher]

Aww, I hate to think it's Bayou Bengal ... I always liked her posts in the past.

Me too.

The rating system covers such things as- safety, condition of horse, harness and carriage as well as dress and behavior of drivers and footmen with the idea of trying always to present our BEST efforts when in public doing carriage livery jobs.

...

Also on the page under discussion were photos taken from various sites that showed harness held together with baling twine or zip ties with their ends all sticking out or even duct tape. Other photos showed such things as a white carriage with a vinyl top so mildewed it was grey. Another showed a carriage with frayed duct tape on the shafts-- badly frayed duct tape. Again, all of these photos had been taken within the past 6-12 months.

...
The working documents posted on our page had photos of different things up for discussion as to what would be considered meeting a standard and not meeting a standard. These photos were included to serve as examples to educateand serve as examples easily visualized by us to help us decide about what standards we wanted to VOLUNTARILY adopt.

For example, some people do not want anyone to point out that it is not a safe practice for drivers to stand many feet away from their horse-drawn carriage without a lead in hand or the horse tied to a substantial object.

Ummm, Plenty of horses ground tie and I am not sure that carriage drivers need a 'standard' to tell them they need to hold onto or tie their horses. I'm pretty sure those horses will stand untied until the sun goes down and the likelihood of one pulling back and creating a dangerous scene is equally as likely as one running off because it was not tied.

And I also think that if anyone comes up with a voluntary standard it would be the carriage horse groups themselves, not an outside group seeking to impose an agenda.

[Lynnwood]

IBTL

While we are on the subject of carriage owners, has anyone other than a carriage driver/owner seen michaleenflynn's operation up close and personal?

I know that when my friend's mother was a city councilwoman in Atlanta, she found all kinds of problems with carriage horse operators there. One example being a guy who fed his drafts only moldy bread that he got free from merchants. Of course that problem was solved when he was convicted of rape and went to jail.

Before everyone jumps on the michaleenflynn's bandwagon (old movie actress name btw), make sure she takes care of her horses and isn't one more internet persona.

We all outted bayou bengal on several threads months ago. Michaleenflynn chose to ignore that since they were joined in opposition to people who want more oversight on carriage owners. Now they've had the falling out, so maybe someone will tell us all if michaleenflynn takes good care of her horses.........or not.

I guess everyone can go back to drinking Coke........since Coca-Cola USA, the parent company that people want boycotted, is NOT sponsoring the TWH celebration.

Beware of whom you support. I learned that when I supported coth's favorite rescue and then found out somethings that were really bad, including the multiple sling donations.

As for carriage companies, some are good and some are bad. Beware whom you support. A feed store owner here in Savannah used to drive for a carriage company. When her horse started tying up, the company told her to drive it back to the barn. They didn't make it as the horse collapsed and died. Another carriage owner here takes care of his horses and rotates them downtown and at his farm for RNR.

She most certainly does enough so that one one of her horses and his driver were chosen to be the subject of a rather stunning carriage painting http://www.artistdavidpeikon.com/watchingworld.htm

Not that its entirely on topic but yes she and her family take great pride in their horses and the quality of their care.

[cloudyandcallie]

She most certainly does enough so that one one of her horses and his driver were chosen to be the subject of a rather stunning carriage painting http://www.artistdavidpeikon.com/watchingworld.htm

Not that its entirely on topic but yes she and her family take great pride in their horses and the quality of their care.

And the name of that carriage company is what? Just in case a friend of mine in NYC (who was a cop and mounted officer) could tell me about the company? I trust his opinion and fact checking.

Someone with a sig line of having a have-a-hart trap and shooting animals in it is not my idea of a person I'd listen to.

[thedrafthorse]

IBTL

While we are on the subject of carriage owners, has anyone other than a carriage driver/owner seen michaleenflynn's operation up close and personal?

Before everyone jumps on the michaleenflynn's bandwagon (old movie actress name btw), make sure she takes care of her horses and isn't one more internet persona.

We all outted bayou bengal on several threads months ago. Michaleenflynn chose to ignore that since they were joined in opposition to people who want more oversight on carriage owners. Now they've had the falling out, so maybe someone will tell us all if michaleenflynn takes good care of her horses.........or not.

C&C - You're a little behind the curve here.

1) The NYC horse in question does not belong to michaleenflynn - although when she refers to "our horses" she is generally referring to all NYC carriage horses, as you may have noticed that she signs her posts with her real name and as the VP of the Horse and Carriage Association of New York. Her family owns a carriage and a couple horses - and is one of 40 or so other owners in NYC.

2) YES, plenty of people besides other carriage drivers have seen the carriage operations in New York City, starting with dozens of COTHers who were invited to ClipClopNYC at the end of March this year. ClipClop's open house was the result of the conversations held here on this board, to give people a chance to see the horses and stables for themselves.

[Lynnwood]

And the name of that carriage company is what? Just in case a friend of mine in NYC (who was a cop and mounted officer) could tell me about the company? I trust his opinion and fact checking.

Someone with a sig line of having a have-a-hart trap and shooting animals in it is not my idea of a person I'd listen to.

I believe like the majority of carriage drivers/owners in NYC they work as independents.

BTW the sig line was a quote(feel free for reading comprehension to noticed that it is in quotation marks) from a thread on this board arguing the merits of humane vs inhumane dispatching of racoons and I found it both funny and Ironic .. now back to your scheduled trolling

[Kwill]

Bayou Bengal is not in NYC at all. She is in the South somewhere. The stakeholders in this discussion are people from all over the country. The NYC carriages are just the flash point for livery driving in general, as far as I can tell and they are the ones under fire from the RARAs.

I think the sig line is supposed to be pointing out the irony. I don't think she means that's what she does. Humor: a sense we should all cultivate!

I think the posters on this board all want the best treatment for horses, but what that treatment is, and how to go about it, varies widely, and there is no industry standard for anything -- just go look at the thread on round penning (it's bad, it's good), or if someone should breed a horse or not, or even slap a horse with a hand, or not. I think we can all agree that hitting a horse's privates with a whip is a bad thing, but then again, three people thought it was ok! Point being, horse people don't agree on much, ever, about what is good and what is not good. Even body score, or what horses should be working and which shouldn't. There's a lot of grey area!

Objecting to people driving starving, lame horses on the streets of any city should be a given. Whether any horses should be doing that job or not is a lot less clear. The first issue is an individual problem, the second is a social problem. I see a huge difference.

I don't think carriage horses in cities are a bad thing; I do think individual owners have a responsibility to take care of their animals. That's where I stand. Standards of care are a good idea, but enforcing them is going to be difficult, let alone deciding what they are. Edit: by this I mean more of the appearance and harness standards, versus basic horse care.

[Bluey]

I still think the OP's first post was clearly trolling.

There are honest ways to start a thread to open conversations, then there is trolling to cause some problems and that is what this was, in my opinion.

The NYC carriage people are human, are not and don't pretend to be perfect, they are in a battle for their lives as carriage operators against those that are also after all our other uses of horses.

The least we owe them, as horse users also most here are, is to give them some consideration.

I say, ask any questions you have, don't fall for making unfounded accusations, that are what this trolling thread seems to have meant to provoke.

[Kwill]

It's already been pointed out many times that no matter what these carriage drivers do in NYC, the anti-carriage people are going to find fault with it. There are a lot of unfounded accusations, especially from non horse people with closed minds. All the education in the world doesn't seem to make a difference when they just don't want the horses on the streets.

if you think an entire industry is cruel/ethically wrong -- driving horses in cities -- then pointing out it's done correctly and humanely for the majority of the time isn't going to make a bit of difference. The skinny horse thing is just a red herring to divert from the real issue, which is horses shouldn't be driven at all -- and that's where it matters to the rest of us!

[AlterNetReality]

IBTL

While we are on the subject of carriage owners, has anyone other than a carriage driver/owner seen michaleenflynn's operation up close and personal?

I know that when my friend's mother was a city councilwoman in Atlanta, she found all kinds of problems with carriage horse operators there. One example being a guy who fed his drafts only moldy bread that he got free from merchants. Of course that problem was solved when he was convicted of rape and went to jail.

Before everyone jumps on the michaleenflynn's bandwagon (old movie actress name btw), make sure she takes care of her horses and isn't one more internet persona.

We all outted bayou bengal on several threads months ago. Michaleenflynn chose to ignore that since they were joined in opposition to people who want more oversight on carriage owners. Now they've had the falling out, so maybe someone will tell us all if michaleenflynn takes good care of her horses.........or not.

I guess everyone can go back to drinking Coke........since Coca-Cola USA, the parent company that people want boycotted, is NOT sponsoring the TWH celebration.

Beware of whom you support. I learned that when I supported coth's favorite rescue and then found out somethings that were really bad, including the multiple sling donations.

As for carriage companies, some are good and some are bad. Beware whom you support. A feed store owner here in Savannah used to drive for a carriage company. When her horse started tying up, the company told her to drive it back to the barn. They didn't make it as the horse collapsed and died. Another carriage owner here takes care of his horses and rotates them downtown and at his farm for RNR.

Physically met Michaeleenflynn at ClipClop;
Physically toured Clinton Park Stables;
Physically saw literally dozens of horses;
Physically met more drivers in one day than I have in my life;
Zero... that is... ZERO complaints about their operation.
They're an open book.

I don't drive, I don't have a carriage, and only one of my drafts is trained for harness I don't own. But, I'm a horse professional with a few dozen around who does know what a properly conditioned horse looks like, what their stalls should look like, etc etc etc... and I say again... ZERO complaints.

WRT the RARA's? They will point at a muscled, slightly overweight drafty taking a nap and call it thin, malnourished, and depressed. Saw & Witnessed this.

I'm sure someone can arrange your friend to visit, if not, come to the next clipclop and see for yourself

[AlterNetReality]

Picture #2... looks like it was photographically enhanced using the same piece of software with the same default settings as the picture of Kim Kardashian in the other thread. Look at the shadowing and the sunlight angle, color temperature, etc.

Some sort of ray trace plugin most likely... you can use an RTP with a false sun to create some interesting depth effect by increasing the black level then hitting the brights in an area (or the entire picture, but #2 is definitely crop and enhance of #1) with Warm light. You can make water channels in beach sand look like bryce canyon if you want... and call it the hoodoo hoodunnit...

[To the MAX]

Bayou - your album is password protected...I would very much like to see the pictures of your horse.

[michaleenflynn]

IBTL

While we are on the subject of carriage owners, has anyone other than a carriage driver/owner seen michaleenflynn's operation up close and personal?

I know that when my friend's mother was a city councilwoman in Atlanta, she found all kinds of problems with carriage horse operators there. One example being a guy who fed his drafts only moldy bread that he got free from merchants. Of course that problem was solved when he was convicted of rape and went to jail.

Before everyone jumps on the michaleenflynn's bandwagon (old movie actress name btw), make sure she takes care of her horses and isn't one more internet persona.

We all outted bayou bengal on several threads months ago. Michaleenflynn chose to ignore that since they were joined in opposition to people who want more oversight on carriage owners. Now they've had the falling out, so maybe someone will tell us all if michaleenflynn takes good care of her horses.........or not.

I guess everyone can go back to drinking Coke........since Coca-Cola USA, the parent company that people want boycotted, is NOT sponsoring the TWH celebration.

Beware of whom you support. I learned that when I supported coth's favorite rescue and then found out somethings that were really bad, including the multiple sling donations.

As for carriage companies, some are good and some are bad. Beware whom you support. A feed store owner here in Savannah used to drive for a carriage company. When her horse started tying up, the company told her to drive it back to the barn. They didn't make it as the horse collapsed and died. Another carriage owner here takes care of his horses and rotates them downtown and at his farm for RNR.

My, my, you are full of dramatic anecdotes! You should jot some of those down in a journal, maybe you could cobble together a short story or sumfin' out of it

(I especially like the one where the guy with multiple 1500lb+ horses fed them solely 'moldy bread' gotten from 'merchants'. Hmmm....how many 'merchants' have moldy bread lying around, in any quantity, no less enough to feed multiple draft horses? Then off to jail for rape - nice touch!)

As the drafthorse pointed out, you are waaaaaay behind the curve here, as it was here on this very forum that the seeds of what became ClipClopNYC 2012 were planted; an open house weekend, inviting equestrians from all disciplines to come to NYC, meet us and our horses, and enjoy various events together. As other people have already posted, lots of them took us up on it.
What do you do with your horse(s)? Have you ever held an open house so we could see how you operate?

As regards Bayou Bengal's "outing", I never knew ANYTHING about her dog situation until a few days ago when I recieved a FB PM from someone on this board. So your assertion that I "chose to ignore" it here on the board is you ASSuming, and I will let that speak for itself. BTW, the thread I was sent about the dog was dated 2010, NOT 'a few months ago.'

Finally, "michaleenflynn" is not an 'old movie actress name' (which movie actress would that be, anyway? LOL), it is the name of the delightful character which Barry Fitzgerald played in one of my fave movies of all time, The Quiet Man.

It must suck to be so wrong about so many things all at once