Looking for honest opinions

[Bluey]

Really, good folks of COTH. It does not work out too well trying to educate RARAs. They pick only what they want to hear and put a spin on it. The best thing to do would be let this thread die a slow, ignored death.

That is called "don't feed the troll".

[judybigredpony]

Have stick will stir thread..........

[Kwill]

OP, I think your amateur attempt at subterfuge landed with a very loud thump.

Unless you just wanted to post those pictures and get them seen, and didn't care at all what anyone had to say, as long as people looked at them, assuming those not commenting (and some that did) would be horrified and somehow come to share your point of view. In that case, nicely done.

I agree, animal rights people are not at all interested in a discussion, since their minds are made up already. Goes for most extremists.

[michaleenflynn]

Well, I do know that these photos have appeared on sites owned by radical animal rights activists as well as a couple of sites run by people who honestly believe that putting such horses on the streets only baits the raras and gives them ammo.

I happen to fall in the latter category. I don't like to see horses that look like that out at shows, rodeos, on dude ranches, pulling carriages for hire, in horse rental strings, at camps or competing in any kind of contest, even leadline. Just my opinion. You asked for one-I gave one.

Just so that you all know, and aren't operating on this thread at a deficit - we in the FB carriage community have been waiting for Bayou Bengal to post these pics over here; she announced very publicly yesterday that she was toying with it, but we thought she would even before she confirmed it. So the OP is most likely either her or one of her group.

Without boring you all with a very long and arduous story, Bayou, who has been a member of a private FB group called The Urban Horse for sometime, was taken to task in a very personal way by Elizabeth Forel, head of one of the main RARA anti-carriage groups in NYC. Bayou -- who always had a thinly-veiled aversion to large commercial carriage operations and anything related which was not "up to her standards" <gag> -- went in a full-tilt screech to a 180, left our group, and with a few other like-minded people, began "B.E.S.T.", a group which would be a self-styled police force and whistle-blower for carriages ACROSS THE COUNTRY, based on photographs found on the internet. I am, as they say, crapping you negative

All mountainous evidence to the contrary, Bayou and her group thinks that if they feed the crocodile, it will leave them alone, when in reality, it will just eat them last.

As for the horses in the pics: the bay with the scratches belonged to an Atlanta company which has been defunct for a YEAR; the other is a NYC horse, which most DEFINITELY has a pertinent backstory. I will retrieve it and post it.

EDIT: thedrafthorse will be posting the backstory.

[michaleenflynn]

I don't need any background info, and I don't care if the OP has an agenda, the horses are skinny. Especially that last picture.

Um, yeah, you do need a background story - if, that is, you want to have a valid opinion.

[LauraKY]

Just so that you all know, and aren't operating on this thread at a deficit - we in the FB carriage community have been waiting for Bayou Bengal to post these pics over here; she announced very publicly yesterday that she was toying with it, but we thought she would even before she confirmed it. So the OP is most likely either her or one of her group.

Without boring you all with a very long and arduous story, Bayou, who has been a member of a private FB group called The Urban Horse for sometime, was taken to task in a very personal way by Elizabeth Forel, head of one of the main RARA anti-carriage groups in NYC. Bayou -- who always had a thinly-veiled aversion to large commercial carriage operations and anything related which was not "up to her standards" <gag> -- went in a full-tilt screech to a 180, left our group, and with a few other like-minded people, began "B.E.S.T.", a group which would be a self-styled police force and whistle-blower for carriages ACROSS THE COUNTRY, based on photographs found on the internet. I am, as they say, crapping you negative

All mountainous evidence to the contrary, Bayou and her group thinks that if they feed the crocodile, it will leave them alone, when in reality, it will just eat them last.

As for the horses in the pics: the bay with the scratches belonged to an Atlanta company which has been defunct for a YEAR; the other is a NYC horse, which most DEFINITELY has a pertinent backstory. I will retrieve it and post it.

[thedrafthorse]

Yup, as michaleenflynn has noted, there is more than a little backstory here. She's filled you in about B.E.S.T. and the Atlanta carriage horse.

The horse in the first two pictures is a NYC carriage horse, who has worked in the city for some time. He has a reputation for being a bit high strung - he worries when he goes on legally mandated turnout, and he worries about other things, like change, so keeping his weight up can be a bit of a problem. When these pictures were taken - by RARA's, no less! - the horse was recently returned from vacation. The pictures were also taken late in the afternoon.

This horse has a reputation for looking "full" and sleek when he goes to work in the morning. In other words, lean, but not unduly skinny, and certainly with a good bloom and obviously healthy. By the end of the day, 8 hours later, when he wants to go home, he starts to look ribby, sucked in and drawn. That's when he goes back to the stable and the next day he's back to his grand - if slim - self. (The point is, we've all known horses like this... who are just on the edge between looking normal and looking skinny, and who can fluctuate wildly between the two, depending on the angle and what the horse is in the midst of doing.)

I should add that the barn manager where this horse lives is well-aware of this horse's individual needs, and is very hands on. He has had his teeth checked, and receives a wide variety of supplements, including oil. Like all NYC stables, this barn feeds free choice hay, and the horse gets plenty of water both in the stable and at work. The horse, having recently returned from turnout, has a health certificate indicating his fitness to work, and he is being monitored by his owner, the barn manager, and the regulatory agencies in NYC.

Now, the OP, aka Bayou Bengal, aka elysian*fields*farm, KNOWS this backstory, but is posting here looking for YOU, fellow COTHers, to help her garner support for her campaign to judge carriage operators against perfection.

[Halt Near X]

Now, the OP, aka Bayou Bengal, aka elysian*fields*farm, KNOWS this backstory, but is posting here looking for YOU, fellow COTHers, to help her garner support for her campaign to judge carriage operators against perfection.

Isn't that the poster with the dog? If so, it's rather rich to be calling ANY other person on their behavior towards animals.

[michaleenflynn]

Isn't that the poster with the dog? If so, it's rather rich to be calling ANY other person on their behavior towards animals.

Yes, it is. I just recently found out that she threatened to clobber that dog with a shovel and/or turn him loose outside her fence. I was dumbfounded.

[ex-racer owner]

From the pictures, the horses seem thin. I stated it that way on purpose. Having owned a few TBs now, I can't tell you how often I look at my horse and think, "he looks thin" or "he looks like he lost weight" but as soon as I move him, or look at him from a different angle, I can see he's fine. Maybe my horse was tense for my first glance at him and then he relaxed and then looked fine. I'm just throwing that out there as I am quite sure that if one wanted to, and was patient enough, they could take a "bad" picture of any horse.

[dani0303]

I thought Bayou Bengal was very pro-carriage? What did I miss???

ETA- I will be in NYC next spring for a wedding. Can't wait to take my carriage ride!

[LauraKY]

So what is Bayou Bengal? A RARA with a carriage business? Bizarre. She's involved with TWH too, isn't she?

[Bluey]

I question why would anyone use a horse in public that is naturally too thin in the eyes of so many of that unknowing public?
That doesn't seem to be good business.
If you know you have a PR problem with that horse, why not go ahead and replace him?
No sense in giving those that are hounding you any fuel for their propaganda.

[thedrafthorse]

I question why would anyone use a horse in public that is naturally too thin in the eyes of so many of that unknowing public?
That doesn't seem to be good business.
If you know you have a PR problem with that horse, why not go ahead and replace him?
No sense in giving those that are hounding you any fuel for their propaganda.

The owner is rather fond of the horse, as he is a GOOD horse. Space and stalls in NYC are limited, so it's hard to just keep the horse in while there's weight gain (especially when THIS horse's natural set point seems to be right at that edge).

What do you want him to do? Sell a nervous horse just because he doesn't "look" perfect?

(And as I said when we first saw the RARAs fixating on this horse... "Congratulations, RARAs! You found the ONE kinda thin horse in New York!" (Out of a population of 200))

[hundredacres]

Looks like 2 different horses and trolling or not they are skinny

Agreed. Skinny harness horses. One's a chestnut the other a bay. If these horses were in someone's backyard I'd be mildly concerned. If I saw them working, I'd be slightly disgusted. Too thin to be working IMO, and they do apear to be working.

I know nothing about the agenda/motive at all so, there - unbiased comments from a horse person.

[hundredacres]

dup deleted

[michaleenflynn]

I question why would anyone use a horse in public that is naturally too thin in the eyes of so many of that unknowing public?
That doesn't seem to be good business.
If you know you have a PR problem with that horse, why not go ahead and replace him?
No sense in giving those that are hounding you any fuel for their propaganda.

Bluey, I totally understand your point, and somewhat agree.

But before I respond to that, I must say that is not the point here. The point is Bayou and Co. are now carriage operators who think they can diagnosis, proclaim unfit, and report horses from what they see in photos on the internet, and who have set themselves up as the sole arbiters of 'best practices.'

Back to your point....this was a good carriage horse. His owner liked him, he wasn't dangerous, he was given a clean bill of health to work by overseeing agencies. This owner (who was also the driver) did not have people turning him down, the horse is actually very pretty in person. Now, personally? I would not want to drive a ribby horse, unless it was a STB, and hard keepers are a strain on my brain. But it has to be understood that this owner is an individual, nobody in our business has the right to tell him what to do. Would I have LIKED to have seen him with a different horse, or fatten him up somehow while not working in public? Yes, but that is not my call. Also, there are logistics -- just finding a horse that works well in NYC can cost an owner a small fortune, not including the price of the horse. One must take days off to go to PA, drive prospects, bring one to NYC, get the paperwork done, and then train him. If he doesn't work out, the whole thing starts all over again, and many times you take a dead loss, while juggling horses back and forth. When an owner finds a horse that will work in NYC, that horse is worth his weight in gold. Also, our horses are easier to manage when they are in NYC, working, being given supplements, etc. Putting weight on is far easier in this setting than with the Amish farmers where we board them.

[michaleenflynn]

Agreed. Skinny harness horses. One's a chestnut the other a bay. If these horses were in someone's backyard I'd be mildly concerned. If I saw them working, I'd be slightly disgusted. Too thin to be working IMO, and they do apear to be working.

I know nothing about the agenda/motive at all so, there - unbiased comments from a horse person.

You also don't know the backstory on the chestnut, posted earlier in this thread.

...and what do you mean by, "harness horses"? Neither of these horses are STBs.

[Frank B]

That beeping sound you hear is my Troll-O-Meter(tm) alarm going off.

[Bluey]

Bluey, I totally understand your point, and somewhat agree.

But before I respond to that, I must say that is not the point here. The point is Bayou and Co. are now carriage operators who think they can diagnosis, proclaim unfit, and report horses from what they see in photos on the internet, and who have set themselves up as the sole arbiters of 'best practices.'

Back to your point....this was a good carriage horse. His owner liked him, he wasn't dangerous, he was given a clean bill of health to work by overseeing agencies. This owner (who was also the driver) did not have people turning him down, the horse is actually very pretty in person. Now, personally? I would not want to drive a ribby horse, unless it was a STB, and hard keepers are a strain on my brain. But it has to be understood that this owner is an individual, nobody in our business has the right to tell him what to do. Would I have LIKED to have seen him with a different horse, or fatten him up somehow while not working in public? Yes, but that is not my call. Also, there are logistics -- just finding a horse that works well in NYC can cost an owner a small fortune, not including the price of the horse. One must take days off to go to PA, drive prospects, bring one to NYC, get the paperwork done, and then train him. If he doesn't work out, the whole thing starts all over again, and many times you take a dead loss, while juggling horses back and forth. When an owner finds a horse that will work in NYC, that horse is worth his weight in gold. Also, our horses are easier to manage when they are in NYC, working, being given supplements, etc. Putting weight on is far easier in this setting than with the Amish farmers where we board them.

It was a rhetoric question, I know you have a reason, I think it is questionable in that situation.
It seems from the side lines that bad PR may trump many good reasons.

I agree that the one poster mentioned seems to be a bit out there.
You never know what she will come up next, is inconsistent.
Not the kind you would want in charge of anything that matters.