• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Physical Reprimands and horses?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    >>Her favorite was letting her gelding that I was riding/showing scratch his head on her back/shoulders with enough force to knock you down. NOPE.

    I agree this is totally unacceptable.

    When a horse with no respect hurts someone, or no one will take horse b/c they are (poorly bred)/untrained, where do they end up? Who is really being cruel here?

    Comment


    • #42
      I dont understand people who correct horses only for behavior that could seriously injure them. If they would have corrected the earlier behaviors which were unpleasant but not life-threatening, then you probably wouldn't be in a position where you might have been REALLY hurt to start with.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
        I dont understand people who correct horses only for behavior that could seriously injure them. If they would have corrected the earlier behaviors which were unpleasant but not life-threatening, then you probably wouldn't be in a position where you might have been REALLY hurt to start with.
        If you have the secret to controlling your horse's ever move and thought, please share, because the rest of us humans are prone to an animal that weighs 1000lbs randomly acting like an animal. As much as we like to think we control what they do, there are still times where their little horse brain wins, and they make horse decisions, like 'Oh, kick!', which are then swiftly met with human decisions, like "OMG I AM GOING TO SHRED YOU WITH THIS LEAD ROPE!"

        You can instill manners in horses, dogs, cats, hell even kids. But they are still unpredictable.
        runnjump86 Instagram

        Horse Junkies United guest blogger

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by Cancara View Post
          What do you think of smacking a horse?
          Smacking is punishment (positive punishment +P). Punishment must be applied using the rules of punishment or it is neither fair or effective. It must be immediate. It must not use excessive force/pain. It must never be dealt in anger or used as a way to "get even". It must be applied in response to specific unwanted behaviors and not randomly or inconsistently. The horse must associate the punishment with his behavior and not with the people around him.

          I am not judging anyone for using +P, but do be aware that sometimes using punishment to teach can have unintended consequences. Some people don't qualities such as shut-down, unthinking, fearful, or distrustful, and these *may* appear as a side effect in some horses depending on how the punishment is applied. I am not saying it happens all the time. But people should just be aware there can be a hidden cost.

          One common problem with using +P to solve a problem is that it puts people in defensive mode: they're looking for the horse to make mistakes and must stay on their guard to be ready to smack, shank, or whip immediately. Hard to get much done if we're always running defense. And mentally it made me focus on what the horse did wrong and not what he did right.

          Another concern I have about reliance on +P is that people can use it so easily -- to react without thinking -- but maybe they aren't always pausing to think if what they're smacking is the real problem. Take for example a horse who doesn't stand still. A punish-based trainer may smack and shank the heck out of the horse every time he fidgets. But what if he is fidgeting because he's nervous, was never taught coping skills, and was never taught standing still is less work? A constant stream of smack-smack-smack might interrupt some of the forward movement, but is he really learning anything? Or is he just the same fidgety mess tomorrow? Not saying all punishment is bad, but I would suggest teaching a specific skill (standing is a skill) apart from leading or loading or other activities. And I'd suggest being more understanding of the horse's nerves/fear drive. An anxious horse is likely to act up more; will adding pain to that equation make him less anxious?

          A horse *can* be made safe with minimal or dare I say no positive-punishment. I follow one trainer, Peggy Hogan, who trains with ZERO punishment. Her horses are safe enough enough to do public appearances & fundraisers. They also work at liberty and even do musical freestyle for fun. Another trainer, Alex Kurland, taught a horse to be a safe effective guide horse for a blind woman -- without using any punishment. If you can teach a horse to be basically bombproof guiding a blind woman through traffic and down crowded sidewalks, that should be proof that +P isn't mandatory to make a horse safe.

          A punishment-free training approach may not be for everyone, but it has been proven to work. Look at marine mammal training: there is no way to punish a killer whale swimming in a tank, and one will kill a handler in the blink of an eye. Unlike horses, they're still wild animals at heart. And yet they're taught manners, how to accept husbandry, and how to carry a person or do a task. Most zoos have also gotten away from using +P on their animals. Rhinos and elephants are far more dangerous than any horse. And yet they're having wonderful success without whacking, whipping, or shocking. If you'd like to learn more, message me and I'll send you links on the punishment-free methods now being used for dangerous/wild animals.
          Veterinarians for Equine Welfare

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
            I dont understand people who correct horses only for behavior that could seriously injure them. If they would have corrected the earlier behaviors which were unpleasant but not life-threatening, then you probably wouldn't be in a position where you might have been REALLY hurt to start with.
            I totally hear you on this.

            Unfortunately, the people who don't understand this, often don't see exactly what you are correcting, and thus may describe your response to your horse as "unfair", "unnecessary" or "cruel".
            Jigga:
            Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by runNjump86 View Post
              If you have the secret to controlling your horse's ever move and thought, please share, because the rest of us humans are prone to an animal that weighs 1000lbs randomly acting like an animal. As much as we like to think we control what they do, there are still times where their little horse brain wins, and they make horse decisions, like 'Oh, kick!', which are then swiftly met with human decisions, like "OMG I AM GOING TO SHRED YOU WITH THIS LEAD ROPE!"
              But the problem with this equation is that it waits until after the horse unweights a hoof and kicks before you take action. Punishment, applied properly, should lower the chances it happens again. However you had to wait for the kick to start before you could punish it.

              What if I suggested a different way of looking at the equation. Don't wait for the mistake, but instead reward the moments he's not being naughty. Make it more worthwhile to pay attention to the handler than to the bushes rustling. Train the handler to focus on tiny changes in body posture and use +R (rewards) or -R (release-of-pressure) to keep the horse from getting to the point where he would kick and hit someone. And take a survey of the whole equation: can we alter the environment, such as where he's standing or external stressors, such that he's unable to make contact if he kicks & so that he's less likely to want to kick? Can we teach handlers such that they don't sneak up on the horse and get the spooked-reflex-kick? Can we teach the horse coping-with-fear skills in a safe environment so if he is spooked, kicking isn't a behavior he tends to offer?
              Veterinarians for Equine Welfare

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by philosoraptor View Post
                But the problem with this equation is that it waits until after the horse unweights a hoof and kicks before you take action. Punishment, applied properly, should lower the chances it happens again. However you had to wait for the kick to start before you could punish it.

                What if I suggested a different way of looking at the equation. Don't wait for the mistake, but instead reward the moments he's not being naughty. Make it more worthwhile to pay attention to the handler than to the bushes rustling. Train the handler to focus on tiny changes in body posture and use +R (rewards) or -R (release-of-pressure) to keep the horse from getting to the point where he would kick and hit someone. And take a survey of the whole equation: can we alter the environment, such as where he's standing or external stressors, such that he's unable to make contact if he kicks & so that he's less likely to want to kick? Can we teach handlers such that they don't sneak up on the horse and get the spooked-reflex-kick? Can we teach the horse coping-with-fear skills in a safe environment so if he is spooked, kicking isn't a behavior he tends to offer?
                I appreciate the point you are making here, but 9 times out of 10 we don't have the luxury of working with horses that have been taught this way from the beginning. We deal with horses that are spoiled, aggressive, poor-mannered, and disrespectful due to bad handling that we had nothing to do with. When the mini gelding I am currently training charged at me, ears back and mouth open, with absolutely NO provocation on my part, you can bet he got his butt kicked. Sometimes you just can't prevent dangerous behavior and you have to correct it as it happens. In a perfect world we would prepare ourselves and our horses for every potentially threatening situation so they responded in an appropriate manner, but that's just not possible. Horses act in dangerous and unpredictable ways while we are in the process of teaching them how to behave acceptably.
                Proud member of the "I'm In My 20's and Hope to Be a Good Rider Someday" clique

                PONY'TUDE

                Comment


                • #48
                  I'm wondering how many people here slap their horse on the neck after a good round in a "job well done" kind of way?

                  Originally posted by philosoraptor View Post
                  Look at marine mammal training: there is no way to punish a killer whale swimming in a tank, and one will kill a handler in the blink of an eye. Unlike horses, they're still wild animals at heart. And yet they're taught manners, how to accept husbandry, and how to carry a person or do a task. Most zoos have also gotten away from using +P on their animals. Rhinos and elephants are far more dangerous than any horse. And yet they're having wonderful success without whacking, whipping, or shocking. If you'd like to learn more, message me and I'll send you links on the punishment-free methods now being used for dangerous/wild animals.
                  Sorry, can I just say I worked at a marine mammal park (not as a trainer, but still)
                  There are ALWAYS two trainers there, you never work alone. And the trainer up top has at the ready a special kind of cattle prod type device, that if there is danger, they will discharge into the water. It is very rarely used, but it is there.

                  I can tell you that at a certain major marine mammal park, there is at least one person killed each year. Usually someone who broke into the park at night and jumped in a tank, which is why they have someone on the night shift who knows how to use that tool.
                  But it HAS happened that it needed used right in the middle of a show, to a trainer. Do you really think people are going to stand by and watch someone killed? That there's nothing in place to try to do something about that?

                  It bothers the whale about as much as a slap bothers a horse, meaning, hopefully enough to interrupt their train of thought so you can re-direct them.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    I have no problem smacking mine when they deserve it. And since all I usually have at hand to correct with is my hand, it hurts me more than it hurts them. Sometimes they need it as a wake up call or an attention getter when they have stopped thinking and are starting down a path that will hurt themselves or someone else. Some of mine have a tendency to be annoying brats pushing the boundaries, like kids playing the stop touching me game in the middle of a long drive. For them the open handed smack lets them know that I have had enough now and that they really do need to listen. The herd boss does the same thing, he puts up with it for a bit and then flattens the worst offender. My yearling hasn't figured out how to take hints yet, you should see what the herd boss sometimes has to do to get her attention and establish what is not allowed....there is no way that a smack with my hand is going to scar her for life.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
                      I dont understand people who correct horses only for behavior that could seriously injure them. If they would have corrected the earlier behaviors which were unpleasant but not life-threatening, then you probably wouldn't be in a position where you might have been REALLY hurt to start with.
                      While this would be the case in an ideal world, many horses we encounter have developed bad habits while other people have worked with them or owned them- as in my case. My mare is smart- now she knows where the boundaries are, I can just use my voice as a warning or indeed, as praise, and all behaviours are much easier to manage, whether that is to correct or to encourage.
                      Horse Selling Hell
                      My Writing
                      People who think they know everything about horses know nothing

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        This thread bothers me somewhat and I keep coming back to re-read it.
                        Ideally, we would all like to live in a punishment-free utopia, and one person's idea of punishment is not the same as the next person's. I do believe in the honesty of horses. That they understand the person handling them and get used to them. If I'm quiet and another person is more energized than me with louder voice and bigger, quicker motions, their horse gets to understand that, where mine might widen her eyes a bit. But there is no place for anger or frightening a horse or inflicting pain - it will destroy any trust being developed. The road is just a bit longer for some horses before they become our trusted friends.
                        Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          I think there needs to be a clear understanding of the differences between a cue, a correction, and punishment. An old trainer quizzed her students on this, and I think she was dead on!

                          A cue is a signal you give to tell the horse what you want and as soon as the wanted behavour occurs, the reward is either a postivie reinforcement or the removal of the cue.

                          A correction is a signal you give to tell the horse what you DON'T want. This is where the 3 second rule and escalation applies, whether its a tap with the crop that says "listen to my leg!" or a sharp smack that means "no biting, no kicking out, or get out of my space!" Always administered immediately and with enough force to re-focus the horse. Then you go immediately back to business.

                          A punishment is actually something you do as a consequence to an unwanted action and occurs outside the 3 second rule, and basically, horses don't get the whole concept of punishment at all, so its pretty useless.

                          I have a lovely sweet horse with perfect manners - until he's upset or distracted. He basiclly doesn't care what the human wants when he's like this. Usually happens about once a year and we have to have a serious CTJ. My other horse is an anxious, hyper, sensitive type that needs constant calm reassurance. Smacking him would only make him worse.
                          Lowly Farm Hand with Delusions of Barn Biddieom.
                          Witherun Farm
                          http://witherun-farm.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Trevelyan96 View Post
                            A punishment is actually something you do as a consequence to an unwanted action and occurs outside the 3 second rule, and basically, horses don't get the whole concept of punishment at all, so its pretty useless.
                            People use the same word to mean different things. Unfortunately, very many people - including myself and behaviourists - use 'punishment' in a different sense from your wise trainer. For us, punishment means both the application of a punisher (something the horse doesn't like) and the resulting decrease in the frequency of the behaviour, assuming it worked. So physical reprimand within the 3 seconds might be appropriate and work, whereas waiting for longer than 3 seconds would be inappropriate and probably wouldn't work. (I prefer to stick to an "instant to 1 second rule" because the effectiveness of any punisher drops off so fast with horses.)

                            Punishment doesn't have to be severe to be effective: a very slight pull or bump on the leadrope when a horse turns his head while being led will teach him to stay straight. (In this case, it may be hard to tell apart from negative reinforcement.) To most people this action would be invisible and they would have no idea the handler was punishing the horse. Of course, describing this as 'correction' sounds nicer, but from a behavioural viewpoint it is also punishment.

                            ETA: This is an excellent article about punishment, if you can get hold of it.
                            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10485004

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Foxtrot's View Post
                              This thread bothers me somewhat and I keep coming back to re-read it.
                              Ideally, we would all like to live in a punishment-free utopia, and one person's idea of punishment is not the same as the next person's. I do believe in the honesty of horses. That they understand the person handling them and get used to them. If I'm quiet and another person is more energized than me with louder voice and bigger, quicker motions, their horse gets to understand that, where mine might widen her eyes a bit. But there is no place for anger or frightening a horse or inflicting pain - it will destroy any trust being developed. The road is just a bit longer for some horses before they become our trusted friends.
                              The above post sounds like it comes from someone who has very little experience with real live horses.

                              Requiring a horse to behave is not "mean".
                              Last edited by grayarabpony; Jul. 18, 2012, 08:06 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                                The above post sounds like it comes from someone who has very little experience with real live horses.

                                Requiring a horse to behave is not "mean".
                                Agreed, and a lot of us are talking about inflicting 'punishment' ONLY when a horse is behaving in an aggressive way that can seriously hurt their handler or another person, i.e. biting, kicking, striking, etc. Not when Dobbin moves his head five inches in your direction while you're leading him to turnout.

                                When a horse is aggressive a mild "correction" just doesn't cut it, and I'd far rather see an aggressive horse get spanked than a person get seriously injured.
                                Proud member of the "I'm In My 20's and Hope to Be a Good Rider Someday" clique

                                PONY'TUDE

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  This newbie to horses would never say that requiring a horse to behave is 'mean.'

                                  I hope my trademark is horses who are well behaved. But it is difficult to convey my thoughts on a subject like this with everybody having different takes on different actions.
                                  Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

                                  Comment

                                  Working...
                                  X