• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 2/8/18)
See more
See less

Researchers Say Monty Roberts May Have it Wrong

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by Anselcat View Post
    Um. That's kind of my point. Based on the article (as I have said before) this is not (IMHO) a good example of scientific research.

    And I readily agree that my personal conclusions posted on the COTH bulletin board are not as rigorously supported as those of a good scientific research study; if we had to provide supporting data and/or footnotes citing primary sources for our posts, this would be a pretty quiet place.

    And for fun -- horses and RC cars!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVLaV7LEH-Q
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbk5m...eature=related
    Oh the fear!
    That was great. Thanks for the giggle!
    I know no RC car would have been safe in my beastie's pasture...

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
      But like pointed out above she simply PROVED MR's method!
      It would be interesting to hear what MR himself thinks this study shows or doesn't show.

      Comment


      • #63
        I just occurred to me that there must be a "technique" everyone is referring to as "roundpenning" that is very different from my concept of "doing training & refinement of skills (horse or human) in the round pen" or doing a couple circles at a trot to look for lameness.. or.. or.. or...

        Sounds like the former involves a lot of running.

        Shugs. Learn something new every day
        Nudging "Almost Heaven" a little closer still...
        http://www.wvhorsetrainer.com

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by fburton View Post
          It sounds so simple when you put it that way. I am inclined to agree with you though.
          The trouble with LookMa's analysis is that ignores the nature of the horse.

          How does the average newborn foal react to humans? It demonstrates fear, and hides behind mama (not all, but most will). Some folks then tackle the foal, stick their fingers up its nose, and "imprint" it. And hope the don't get stomped by mama. The thing is a foal is not a bird; they don't "imprint." They don't bond. But it's touted as being "natural."

          The foal, through instinct, recognizes humans as predators. We humans, through training, will overcome this instinct so that we can make the foal a useful horse. There are lots of ways to do this and can vary widely from horse culture to horse culture. Many roads to Rome, don't you know. I suspect that, like roads, they are not all created equal. Wise humans use good judgement in what road they will travel.

          Did you ever herd a horse (or horses) from horseback? Or cattle? Cows and horses react similarly to "pressure" and you can control their movement by controlling the movement of the lead animal. Is this using "fear?" In one sense, yes. But we don't create the fear; nature did that for us. We use what nature has already given us. In a domesticated herd it's relatively easy as the animals have become acclimated to human presence. With wild animals it much more "interesting."

          For a very good book on animal handling read The Cowboy at Work: All About His Job and How He Does It by Fay E. Ward. Ward ran away from home in 1912 and cowboyed all across the West (from Texas to Montana). He wrote the book in 1958. Not only does he explain what needs to be done, he's got an excellent series of drawings, including one that shows where to put "drovers" when moving a herd.

          Personally, Ward had probably forgotten more about animal handling (and training) than our Aussie Master's Candidate will ever know. He also puts Roberts, Parelli, Dorrance, Hunt, and the rest in the shade on that score, too.

          Horses are prey animals. They are wary of that which is behind. They will naturally move away from it. We use this in intelligent round pen work. But we also use quiet motions and soft words. Unless, of course, we need to use harsher motions and words. We do what the horse will respond to, then keep turning down the volume so that eventually the horse responds to smallest motion (a whisper) vice a gross motion (a shout).

          Again, a round pen is not essential. I don't think either the Partians or the Mongols used them and they were both pretty successful horse cultures. A square pen is also not essential. Nor is a longe line. Yet each can be effective as a training tool.

          Then we must ask the last question: is the tool chosen likely to cause any harm or undesirable side effects? The original article demonstrates nothing in this regard. Those who reject the round/square pen method cite no evidence of harm or undesirable side effects. Therefore we can even ask the question "so what?" if we find that fear IS used in the "pen" methods.

          People get to do with their horses what they like. When they opine that their method is superior, or that some other method is "cruel," then we get to take a deeper look.

          G.
          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Guilherme View Post

            How does the average newborn foal react to humans? It demonstrates fear, and hides behind mama (not all, but most will).
            Coltie is a prodigy!!! :=) He was sniffing my hand through the stall opening; I was his first human contact. What a cool memory... such a friendly guy...
            Nudging "Almost Heaven" a little closer still...
            http://www.wvhorsetrainer.com

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
              The trouble with LookMa's analysis is that ignores the nature of the horse.
              My analysis does not ignore it, it is based on it. In a herd situation horses learn to follow what is moving away from them and to move away what is following them. When people show up and do things to them that tendency is still there though people can change it. The tendency is one of the reasons horses do the "majikal" join-up that impresses some people so much. It is not majikal at all. The tendency is there and some people capitalize on it--and hire PR firms and impress queens and make videos and TV shows etc.

              Comment


              • #67
                Actually, the pressure and pushing Samthebigredhorse away WAS the way I eventually caught him, that first day, in the middle of nowhere, on a dirt track/road. I pushed with an invisible 'pillow' between us and then stopped. He acted all bad by trying to stay just out of decreasing range. He kept getting closer and closer and I kept pushing him away with my pillow of air. Fear?? I don't think so! The more I pushed, the more he wanted to come to me. Even when he came up to me, I ignored him, drove him bats!! Finally, he was almost begging for the lead over his neck and halter around his nose. Once he remembered how to lead (lots of zig-zagging), he couldn't wait to hop into the trailer! We weren't even ready for him to do so! Then I couldn't get him out of the trailer to put some hay for him.

                The less-is-more lesson goin' on. Totally unexciting, pretty dull. Not a bit of fear going or coming.
                GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by LookmaNohands View Post
                  My analysis does not ignore it, it is based on it. In a herd situation horses learn to follow what is moving away from them and to move away what is following them. When people show up and do things to them that tendency is still there though people can change it. The tendency is one of the reasons horses do the "majikal" join-up that impresses some people so much. It is not majikal at all. The tendency is there and some people capitalize on it--and hire PR firms and impress queens and make videos and TV shows etc.
                  Nope, nothing majikal at all. Matter of fact, I've read that's why some aspiring BNT's are picking certain breeds, such as Andulusian (I think that was one), because of their wanting to be with humans so badly and can mimic what a human does. That makes an impressive show, don'cha know.
                  GR24's Musing #19 - Save the tatas!!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    What did all the |Queen's trainers and horse people think when (according to reports) she said she wanted all her horses started the Monty Roberts way -
                    maybe felt like they had received a slap in the face?
                    Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Foxtrot's View Post
                      What did all the |Queen's trainers and horse people think when (according to reports) she said she wanted all her horses started the Monty Roberts way -
                      maybe felt like they had received a slap in the face?

                      Probably not a heck of a lot. For the 'European' way of starting a horse there were a few cool pointers, but as I said, nothing really major that sprang to mind, I am sure.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Foxtrot's View Post
                        What did all the |Queen's trainers and horse people think when (according to reports) she said she wanted all her horses started the Monty Roberts way -
                        maybe felt like they had received a slap in the face?
                        I always wondered about that, doesn't sound like something The Queen would say at all.
                        First, she thought too much of her own people for that.
                        It was not nice to put their training down like that.

                        I would guess, she did say something complimentary, as the nice, diplomatic person she is and it was repeated as you say the reports came out, maybe not necessarily correct.

                        I expect MR was not the first time she was asked to watch someone's dog and pony show.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          round pen work involves moving a horse away and letting it come to you as a way of coordinating voice and body to specific movements you'd like Peaches to grasp w/o and before you attach a line to him to jump up on him.


                          my horses (properly done)can go forward,backward, turn toward me,walk,trot,canter,come to me,go away etal. on voice and hand signals.and they love understanding it

                          this I can use to then go under saddle.it's like giving them a medium language (as they say in the Lord of the Rings,Common Speech)

                          the HUGE downer side to round penning is that people who cannot read horses make it a giant "chase and wheel" session with the horse basically trying to get away from that crazy SOB in the pen with him.

                          another thing not grasped by these devotees is that every horse has a different idea of his own "personal space"....

                          too close and the signals are over ridden by his "flight" instinct.
                          too far away and he wonders ( rather quizzically),why you are flapping your arms and going on so, all the way over there,until totally pissed off, you run at him shouting ;>

                          Tamara
                          Last edited by Tamara in TN; Jul. 14, 2012, 02:06 PM.
                          Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                          I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by LookmaNohands View Post
                            My analysis does not ignore it, it is based on it. In a herd situation horses learn to follow what is moving away from them and to move away what is following them. When people show up and do things to them that tendency is still there though people can change it. The tendency is one of the reasons horses do the "majikal" join-up that impresses some people so much. It is not majikal at all. The tendency is there and some people capitalize on it--and hire PR firms and impress queens and make videos and TV shows etc.
                            Assuming for the moment that your are correct, does round pen work based upon moving away from something cause any harm to the horse at any level? If so, what harm does it cause?

                            G.
                            Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                              I always wondered about that, doesn't sound like something The Queen would say at all.
                              First, she thought too much of her own people for that.
                              It was not nice to put their training down like that.

                              I would guess, she did say something complimentary, as the nice, diplomatic person she is and it was repeated as you say the reports came out, maybe not necessarily correct.

                              I expect MR was not the first time she was asked to watch someone's dog and pony show.

                              But we all know how he adores her dogs and ponies!

                              However, and I think Tamara makes it very clear, the principle is not new by any means. It's been down in a lot of liberty shows.

                              Of course a dedicated horse trainer has/had more time to perfect the means than say a farmer who has to have the beast in harness at a certain time.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Tamara in TN View Post
                                round pen work involves moving a horse away and letting it come to you as a way of coordinating voice and body to specific movements you'd like Peaches to grasp w/o and before you attach a line to him to jump up on him.


                                my horses (properly done)can go forward,backward, turn toward me,walk,trot,canter,come to me,go away etal. on voice and hand signals.and they love understanding it

                                this I can use to then go under saddle.it's like giving them a medium language (as they say in the Lord of the Rings,Common Speech)

                                the HUGE downer side to round penning is that people who cannot read horses make it a giant "chase and wheel" session with the horse basically trying to get away from that crazy SOB in the pen with him.

                                another thing not grasped by these devotees is that every horse has a different idea of his own "personal space"....

                                too close and the signals are over ridden by his "flight" instinct.
                                too far away and he wonders ( rather quizzically),why you are flapping your armas and going on so all the way over there,until totally pissed off you run at him shouting ;>

                                Tamara
                                That lack of timing is the same in a round pen, square pen, out in a pasture, at the end of a longe line or even a lead rope, remember the LP videos?

                                We go back to the same reflections.
                                It is not what we do with horses, but how we do it that makes it good, better or not good enough.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                  That lack of timing is the same in a round pen, square pen, out in a pasture, at the end of a longe line or even a lead rope, remember the LP videos?

                                  We go back to the same reflections.
                                  It is not what we do with horses, but how we do it that makes it good, better or not good enough.

                                  That has always separated the good trainers from the bad ones.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    I think if I was getting chased by a remote control car I would run away too. I don't subscribe to any single natural horsemanship trainer's ways, but I do find that a lot of the basics that these trainers use to be very successful, and have used them with most of the horses that I have owned or worked with in order to achieve a better connection as well as the horse's respect.
                                    Maggie Bright, lovingly known as Skye and deeply missed (1994 - 2013)
                                    The Blog

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                                      Assuming for the moment that your are correct, does round pen work based upon moving away from something cause any harm to the horse at any level? If so, what harm does it cause?

                                      G.
                                      It depends on the ability of the person doing it more than anything. It is like a bit. A curb with a big port when used by a skilled rider can be very gentle and a plain snaffle can cause all sorts of pain and damage to the horse when used harshly by a poor rider.

                                      So it depends on who is doing it. It could be harmless or harmful.

                                      Of course a bit is not necessary for riding.

                                      IMHO round pen work is even less necessary than a bit.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        If I am not mistaken, Monty Roberts rode representing America in the Queen's Horses Diamond Jubilee celebration show. So she certainly still likes him.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by LookmaNohands View Post
                                          It depends on the ability of the person doing it more than anything. It is like a bit. A curb with a big port when used by a skilled rider can be very gentle and a plain snaffle can cause all sorts of pain and damage to the horse when used harshly by a poor rider.

                                          So it depends on who is doing it. It could be harmless or harmful.

                                          Of course a bit is not necessary for riding.

                                          IMHO round pen work is even less necessary than a bit.
                                          So, by your own admission, it isn't harmful when properly done.

                                          Thus endeth the lesson.

                                          G.
                                          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X