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Researchers Say Monty Roberts May Have it Wrong

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Miichelle View Post
    I can't stand Monty Roberts BUT what concerns me about this study is the conclussion that training a horse using pressure ("fear") and release is cruel and inhumane. It worries me as to what other training methods are going to be labled cruel.
    Cavessons and riding. Two "related" articles on the right side of the page.

    http://phys.org/news249120703.html#nRlv

    http://phys.org/news204283164.html#nRlv

    *gag*
    Nudging "Almost Heaven" a little closer still...
    http://www.wvhorsetrainer.com

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by Belg View Post
      Cavessons and riding. Two "related" articles on the right side of the page.

      *gag*
      Depends on your search history and physical location. Not all sidebar ads are the same.
      The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by 7HL View Post
        Depends on your search history. Not all sidebar ads are the same.
        Point, thanks. Links provided.
        Nudging "Almost Heaven" a little closer still...
        http://www.wvhorsetrainer.com

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
          Roberts and his ilk made it OK not to be macho when starting horses in the US. Beats the "lay 'em down, tie 'em up, throw a saddle on and tie 'em to a snubbin' post" way it used to be done here. I thank them for that. Not so much for the over use of round pens we see today.
          I think that way had already gone out of fashion by the time old Monty showed up - at least on the East Coast . I was taught by some old timers and starting the babies was gradual and gentle.

          Seems that Monty is the one that announced he had changed the way things were done.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Belg View Post
            Point, thanks. Links provided.

            I have had as recent side bar ads....

            Cabelas
            Bit of Britain
            Smart Pak
            Access Truck Bed Liners

            I have had no issues with the side ad bar. Since many on here do not pay and only access this forum as a free board, they need to have the ads.

            This was the most recent one...

            http://www.filson.com/?utm_source=ag...campaign=aghub
            The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by 7HL View Post
              I have had as recent side bar ads....

              Cabelas
              Bit of Britain
              Smart Pak
              Access Truck Bed Liners

              I have had no issues with the side ad bar. Since many on here do not pay and only access this forum as a free board, they need to have the ads.
              These were related articles sidebar items from the site that the OP linked to, not CoTH...
              Nudging "Almost Heaven" a little closer still...
              http://www.wvhorsetrainer.com

              Comment


              • #27
                I think the study shows that, just because something works, we also need to investigate why it works or not.

                Many of the more out there horse training techniques work, but we don't necessarily want to go there with most horses.

                So much "roundpenning" I have seen is useless running a horse around with little control and getting the horse first scared, then tired, then expecting it to think, not always a good place for a horse to learn.

                I prefer to have a horse on a longe line, so the horse can be stopped if things could be getting fast out of hand, like a first saddling.
                Others like free round penning.

                As with anything else, you can do any you do right, that is what good horsemen do, in any kind of training system, with any kind of tools or any kind of horse.

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                • #28
                  I believe the point of the study is: the theory is the horse acts the way it does in the round pen in response to the human imitating horse body language.
                  So the study set out to prove/disprove this.
                  the robotic car can't use body language at all, horse or human like, and yet the horse behaved the same in response to the car as to the human.
                  ergo whatever is prompting the horse to act as it does in the round pen has nothing to do with horse body language.

                  Going on to conclude the whole thing is inhumane is a bit much; unless they did things like test for stress hormones and lasting adverse impact on the horse's health and behavior, they can't conclude that. And probably didn't- it was probably some reader of the study who came up with that.

                  I believe the study- I've watched lots of roundpennings, and what you see is a predator chasing a horse around. It has nothing to do with horse body language.
                  This all sounds rather stupid, except A LOT of the NH rhetoric, and even much of "regular" horse handling mythology, is all based on the idea that the human is perceived as some kind of super-horse by the horse.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I think the round pen can be helpful in small doses, as well. It's nice to be able to concentrate on getting the horse to go forward and transition, especially with OTTBs that hate to go to the right sometimes, without having to worry about a longe line. I fnd that modified round penning is good to get them understanding how to longe without other distractions. However, then you need to train them to longe on the line without the walls.

                    When I was training as a young woman, I liked to long line my greenies before I got on. I thought it was helpful to teach steering and accepting of the bit before they had to carry me. There was always a controversy about that, however, since some trainers thought it was a waste of time, and the trainer should just get on "since you weren't training a cart horse."

                    My point is, every method has it's critics. I think round penning is a nice tool to have in the box, and I never thought my horses were afraid of me in there. But then, I don't do it for hours the way the NH people say to.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Alagirl View Post

                      Dunno, but it seems to me that they rather proved his theory, rather than disproved it.
                      Agreed.

                      It's basic negative reinforcement which is like 90% of what we do with horses anyway. This article, and more than a few other articles on the website, make it seem like the authors are not all "there." I'm not saying that "joining up" is the magickal key into horsey's heart and soul, I'm just saying that a few things don't really add up in that article.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Can't they find someone with a bit intelligence to do the research? sheesh. There is definitely question begging to be answered whether Monty Roberts' method is valid or not; but this particular research, while claimes to to do just that, does nothing to validate or nullify it. All it proves is pressure and release works, which actually validate Robert's claim. Rolling eyes.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          It's a lot easier to prove that a violin is a musical instrument than it is to play one... but saying it's not a musical instrument because you can't play it with a shotgun isn't valid research

                          Round pen? Great tool...
                          Nudging "Almost Heaven" a little closer still...
                          http://www.wvhorsetrainer.com

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by wendy View Post
                            I believe the point of the study is: the theory is the horse acts the way it does in the round pen in response to the human imitating horse body language.
                            So the study set out to prove/disprove this.
                            the robotic car can't use body language at all, horse or human like, and yet the horse behaved the same in response to the car as to the human.
                            I politely disagree. The car was operated by a human, and moved toward the horse at certain points (to put pressure on, as determined by the human), and retreated at certain points. So it did have body language-- it reacted to the horse's body. Call it automotive body language.

                            If the car was simply circling in the middle of the pen, my bet is horse would ignore it (or play with it, depending on horse).

                            Deer and groundhogs on the side of the road ignore my car because it drives straight by. If I started maneuvering the car around the groundhog to get a better look (make the car act like a human) I bet it would respond differently.
                            ...somewhere between the talent and the potato....

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Wait a sec.

                              'K, y'all need to know a bit more about how academic research and education works before you think the first author here is personally an idiot.

                              I don't know what's done in England, but let me give you a general clue. She's constrained.... a lot.

                              Originally posted by Anselcat View Post
                              Article says "Cath Henshall, a Master of Animal Science candidate" led the study.

                              I would be interested to know if she actually receives her Master's degree on the basis of this study. The conclusions, at least as she gives them in this article, are way out of proportion to her study.

                              On basis of this article, and IMHO, sounds like she interpreted her results to fit the conclusion she wanted (or to get some press time). I could see these results being touted as showing that 'body language' works, even when carried out by a RC-car.

                              And someone beat her to it (using cows): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWvRkUED2HA
                              Finding a research project for a Master's Thesis is hard. Often, in the sciences, you do a dinky (and I mean dinky) project that's a spin-off of a large project and grant that your faculty advisor has. You don't get to pick whatever you like in practice. And by the time you design a practicable (and affordable) experiment that will rule on some previously-made claim, you have narrowed that one down considerably. Yet you are supposed to be testing a grand idea that anyone would care about!

                              That's how this chick got to what looks like an overblown conclusion.

                              When you get farther along in your scientific career-- say, a PhD thesis that consists of a suite of experiments and papers on one problem, your questions and answers are more robust. But even PhD work doesn't look as good as the stuff done by a scientist who runs his own lab and has a (usually huge!) multi-year grant that lets him work on a much larger question.

                              So a science girl has got to start somewhere. Oh, and working on Animal Behavior (is it still called Ethology?) is always tough-- just about any theory can be accused of making wrong or anthropomorphic or too-simple-evoluationary-theory-based attributions. It's the nature of the kind of scientific inquiry that it Animal Behavior is.

                              Originally posted by goneriding24 View Post
                              SHE is a candidate for somethingorother whoop-de-doo. You don't understand!! She disproved...SOMEthing which the great unwashed should know!
                              Please read the above before you trash her work. A shitty-looking Master's level project really doesn't mean much in the way of the quality of the person or the science.... or even the degree if that credential is what rubs you the wrong way.

                              Sorry for the detour, folks. I just need to pull over to teach people who diss higher education from afar about what, exactly, they are dissing.
                              The armchair saddler
                              Politically Pro-Cat

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                It's not a question of "imitating" the horse. I can't "imitate" a horse any more than I can imitate a Bluebird (avian or bus).

                                What I can do is move the horse's feet with mine. It's not to "wear them out" but rather to teach a discipline and build a "connection." Remember that the learning, in the round pen, is a two-way street. I'm going to learn the horse's way and they will learn mine. Then I'll establish my dominance (leadership, priority, primacy, partnership, whatever word you want to use). If I've done this intelligently then when it comes to saddle work the horse will already be acclimated to my presence and my way and my discipline and we'll get on better in future work.

                                The round pen is not essential to this process. There are other ways. But it is a very practical way to do the job and, intelligently done, carries few risks of negative side effects.

                                G.
                                Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I think it is hard to judge research without reading the actual journal article (and if the research isn't sound enough to get published in a peer reviewed journal, I'm not really interested in it). Popular press articles like this tend to leave out a lot of details and overly generalize (they try to oversimplify too often, thinking we're not smart enough to understand the big words!).

                                  I don't like the researcher/student saying that the round pen method is cruel/inhumane. If she were my student, that assumption of hers would land her in trouble. The research as quoted does nothing to prove that round penning is cruel - it just proves that horses can learn without the benefit of human body language.
                                  Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

                                  Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com

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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by SAcres View Post
                                    I've used join-up techniques before. It was explained correctly and I understood the concept. Yes, the technique is pressure and release, anyone with a brain could figure that out. But...I would hesitate to say, (done correctly of course) that the pressure causes "fear" in the horse. Of course someone who is chasing the horse around with a longe whip cracking it and forcing the horse to gallop full tilt, wild eyed and what not, is using fear. But there is more of a middle ground that can be used.

                                    You keep the pressure on the horse to keep him moving. Not to scare him. You want the horse thinking about what you are doing, not his surroundings. The idea, IME is to get the horse to focus on you by using pressure. I'm terrible at explaining this stuff, but...
                                    When I 'join up', I essentially free longe the horse. I want the horse to walk, trot, canter, halt, and change directions based on my body language. But I keep the horse on the edge of the pen, away from me, away from his "herd". So when I feel like the horse is consistently focusing on me and listening, I turn my back and basically giving the horse the option of coming into my space and "submitting", or staying on the outside. The horse usually walks up, definitely doesn't seem "scared", and allows me to touch him wherever I want.

                                    I don't think a join up is about a bond, it is about gaining respect and communicating that the handler is boss in a way that doesn't physically restrain the horse. It can be humane, but just like any other training method, it can be used incorrectly as well.
                                    Agreed.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      There are, what, dozens? of natural horsemanship trainers out there. Many of them try to distinguish themselves with branding, but a lot of their basic training incorporates the same approach.

                                      I've used some of the techniques, including round penning, with all of my horses I've had in the last 10 years (a whole 4, heh, so not exactly a large sample), and basically my approach is based on the best advice anyone ever gave me about horses:

                                      Try something. If it works, keep doing it. If it doesn't, try something else.



                                      MR and PP both get in the way of their techniques because I feel like they're selling me snake oil (Gai Wa Nee Pony Boy--or however it's spelled--was the same way), but the others I find I can at least listen to. And if I hear something that sounds reasonable and logical and nonabusive, I try it. If it works, I do it again. If it doesn't...well, you know.
                                      SA Ferrana Moniet 1988-2011
                                      CP Trilogy 2002-2015
                                      My bloggity blog: Hobby Horse: Adventures of the Perpetual Newbie

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                                      • #39
                                        It's easy to critcize other's work; it is harder as a researcher to not inject conclusions that are subjective and don't hold up to rigorous scrutiny, or to come to an erroneous conclusion based on the researcher's bias.

                                        A master's thesis is not really supposed to be original work, it's more about demonstrating you have the chops to do science. Whether this lady did that or not is the question, which should be clear from her thesis statement and conclusions, as well as her methodology (was it a valid measurement? was the measurement performed in a way that can show a correlation with the conclusion?). If so, then it should be obvious that the car was as effective as a person in shaping the horse's behavior.

                                        Too many factors and things get muddled. Science is small steps that add up to the shaping of larger theories and conclusions. Too much stuff and it's not clear what is "proven" and what isn't.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I have done plenty or researches, or thesis, in my life. All I can say is, you don't need big budget or multi-years research lab to produce a credible result: all you need is sincerity, hard work, and a bit of creativity. Sloppy work does not equate constraints.

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