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Horse Breeds =/= Simple

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  • Original Poster

    #41
    Originally posted by Niennor View Post
    Not offense taken. I just wanted to make a distinction between the more rare but actually rather old breeds and the trendy breeds that just started showing up like the Walkaloosas and the type.
    Distinction definitely noted. I believe the Orlov is also an older, rarer breed as well.

    I would never claim that "rare in my head" equalled "rare in this world."

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by erniewalker View Post
      DON'T STOP!!!

      This is exactly the sort of thing I need to know!
      Then you need to PM D_Baldstockings. She is even better at research than I am.
      From the Revolutionary days up through the Civil War era, the imported Thoroughbreds were being crossed with older native American colonial strains. This melting pot produced the Saddlebred, Morgan, Standardbred, Tennessee Walking Horse, Missouri Fox Trotter and Quarter Horse among others. The colonial types almost died out due to decreased popularity and exportation to Central America, but survive still in the Mountain Horses and Paso breeds. Back in the early days of the registries, horses were qualified by performance, not blood. Horses could qualify for multiple registries, and some of the early, prepotent half Thoroughbred stallions can appear in the pedigrees of many registries.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by erniewalker View Post
        Distinction definitely noted. I believe the Orlov is also an older, rarer breed as well.
        You're absolutely right

        http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/h...tter/index.htm
        Yes, I smell like a horse. No, I don't consider that to be a problem.

        Originally posted by DottieHQ
        You're just jealous because you lack my extensive koalafications.

        Comment


        • #44
          Think of a registry as a database.

          How much 'meaning 'the entries in that database have to people depends on
          -whether they are looking for a separate show venue aka 'breed show' where they may compete against themselves as well as having a great time socially.
          -whether they want to compete in national or international performance division show/races, etc. against all breeds where there is a statistical advantage to certain breeds.
          -whether they want to breed horses and either reproduce a distinct useful or beautiful type or in some cases make some money on a flavor of the month registry.

          'Breeds' are a subset of 'registries' as most of the old or indigenous types of horses were being bred by humans long, long before their pedigrees were put on paper.

          If you are looking for a good reference book, try this 2007 edition
          http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?inde...rds=080613884X

          Then compare it with the 1995 edition of the same book and you will see the proliferation of registries.

          Compare that with The Points of the Horse by Matthew Horace Hayes 1904 (many reprints available)- although he is British and as is usual with every horseman of that day had limited access to local knowledge of horse breeds and types other than those he personally observed, he was an excellent horseman and well-traveled. He classifies horses into types by utility; then goes into the various countries and talks about their local horses as to what they would be useful for.

          Just about every horse on the planet has at least had the sire selected by man for many generations (whether wisely or not is another discussion), the majority of the time with a utilitarian purpose up until the last 60 or so years when horses became purely pleasure and recreational animals for much of the post WWII world.

          As equine generations are so long - really 10 years or more where performance stock is concerned, the effects of fad breeding have not heavily impacted most registries or breeds, but the trend toward breeding and valueing non-useful stock is becoming more apparent.

          Cross-breds were not looked down on in the past as they are today -IF they were superb performance animals; which is why most were making specific crosses in the first place. Anglo x just about anything was supposed to produce an athletic riding type, the x in the pedigree chosen for temperament, power, easy keeping qualities, a strong trot, gaiting ability, pony character, etc.
          What are now called mutts derogatively were in earlier times considered Grades – horses less likely to reproduce themselves, yet often highly useful as individuals.

          You might say that the modern emphasis of the novice buyer on 'papers' has contributed to a sort of registry-creation craze to validate any given horse aside from it's performance.

          Unless one is breeding horses or running a professional specialty type training barn, pedigree is actually of small importance. One horse + one rider/driver and how they get along is where most equestrian endeavors are enjoyed or disastrous.

          Horses are the living result of more than 6,000 years of utility domestication necessitating 'getting along with' humans as opposed to just being eaten by them. Humans judge and value by sight as a shortcut over all other senses - a picture is worth a thousand words. And horses that were also useful have been selected for 'beauty', however that has been defined, for just as many years.

          And being a horseman, I and every other horseman has strong opinions, prejudices and allegiance to certain breeds or registries they identify with or admire, not to mention individual paragons within those breeds.
          Competitiveness is human nature. We apply it to everything.


          According to my research, the (parent) Brasilian Association first recorded Mangalarga Marchadors in 1950, although the breed was well established for a very long period prior? Now, does a registry make a breed or does a breed make a registry? Is the breed 200 years old or 60?
          As a footnote, Thoroughbreds were historically recorded in a studbook before Arabians were recorded in a studbook, yet everyone agrees that the Arabian horse predates the Thoroughbred. The Icelandic horse is arguably the oldest known-to-be-pure breed, yet venerable age is no sign of superiority/popularity in the equestrian world.

          Happy trails!

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by erniewalker View Post
            For the purpose of this project, that's not my call to make.

            But what I was specifically meaning was, let's say I have a super talented TB hunter mare, and I want to breed her to something athletic, maybe a little heavier, with big movement to match the speed. And I search websites all over and find a warmblood stud that I think would add the bone and performance I want. That would be a cross made with consideration. And registerable, too!
            Why would you want to go to all the expense and hassle of breeding her to get something that might not be at all what you wanted. Warmbloods these days already have a lot of TB in them; they were developed from heavy coach-type horses (or in some cases drafts) crossed with TBs. If you want something lighter, go for a sporthorse instead. (Although if anyone can satisfactorily explain to me the difference between a sporthorse and a WB, I shall be surprised!)
            Founder of the People Who Prefer COTH Over FB Clique
            People Who Hate to Rush to Kill Wildlife Clique!
            "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
              (Although if anyone can satisfactorily explain to me the difference between a sporthorse and a WB, I shall be surprised!)
              I've been wondering about that, too.
              Yes, I smell like a horse. No, I don't consider that to be a problem.

              Originally posted by DottieHQ
              You're just jealous because you lack my extensive koalafications.

              Comment


              • #47
                A sporthorse is a horse that is trained and (hopefully) competes in the sport disciplines recognized by the FEI and seen in the Olympics and WEG, etc., it does something.

                A WB is a breed or registry designation that a horse acquires by ancestry, not accomplishment. Before training, it may be a Sporthorse prospect or Sporthorse bred when the family has performers in it.

                Think of a Quarter horse vs. a Cutting horse or Reiner.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Well, considering the WB registry is fairly recent, I don't know if we can really talk about ancestry when it comes to WBs. No offense to WB lovers.
                  Yes, I smell like a horse. No, I don't consider that to be a problem.

                  Originally posted by DottieHQ
                  You're just jealous because you lack my extensive koalafications.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #49
                    Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
                    Why would you want to go to all the expense and hassle of breeding her to get something that might not be at all what you wanted. Warmbloods these days already have a lot of TB in them; they were developed from heavy coach-type horses (or in some cases drafts) crossed with TBs. If you want something lighter, go for a sporthorse instead. (Although if anyone can satisfactorily explain to me the difference between a sporthorse and a WB, I shall be surprised!)
                    It was a hypothetical question. I have two geldings, but I've seen a lot of discussions in various breed and breeding forums across the internet about such crosses.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      Originally posted by D_BaldStockings View Post
                      Think of a registry as a database.
                      Thank you, D_BaldStockings! This response has been very helpful in wrapping my mind around this topic.

                      I'm finding that many more breeders are breeding for purpose or flash, rather than for preservation or allegiance to a breed, than I would have originally anticipated. As such, my understanding of reality was deeply confused. For example, when I was a kid, you had a Quarter Horse that happened to be Grulla, not a Grulla cutting horse that happened to be mostly Quarter Horse. You had a National Show Horse, or an Anglo-Arabian, or an Akhal-Teke. Now there are TB/Oldenburg crosses who qualify as breeding stock for a number of warmblood registeries, but aren't actually registered, and it made my poor little mind whirr around in confusion. And then there was the "exotic solid bay..." I was so confused when I wrote this post that I was about over it!

                      Your explanation of Sport Horse helps, too. I think there's a fair amount of wonderful marketing to help people think that this is a specific type of horse that everyone NEEEEEEEDS to have. (When, in fact, we as experienced horse people know that talent comes in all sorts of packages and lineages!)

                      Thank you so much for helping to clear this up!

                      Comment

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