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The Big Switch (Western to English, Warning: Short Novel Coming))

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  • #21
    One of those older saddles you're looking at aren't going to put you much closer to your horse than a Western saddle. I doubt they will allow you to get a proper position for much more than trail riding, too, which may be all you want?

    I don't know, but if I were you, I'd take a few dressage lessons and maybe hunt seat lessons to see what you enjoy, then get a saddle that will enable you to learn how to ride properly in the discipline you enjoy the most.

    If you really want to feel closer to your horse and learn to ride well and have a balanced seat, start with a bareback pad (no stirrups), take a few lessons (yes, bareback), take a few dressage/hunt/whatever lessons, and then buy an Ansur
    "If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."

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    • Original Poster

      #22
      Originally posted by Hinderella View Post
      You could look at a Stubben Survival, if you can find one..they pop up every so often on eBay. Smith Worhtington makes a "military" saddle that is basically an English saddle with a deep seat and lots of buckles to hang stuff on:
      http://www.smithworthington.com/inde...product&id=537
      I'm sure that a new one is too expensive for a trial, but you might find a used one.
      If you're just doing flat work and some trail riding, English style, you might be able to get away with something like a Crosby Marathon:
      http://princegeorge.kijiji.ca/c-buy-...AdIdZ358229240
      I do believe that once you've had some time in an English saddle with your new instructor, you won't worry as much about weight distribution, and you'll be in a better position to choose the right saddle for you and your horse.
      Have fun!
      Whoa! Thanks, I like those! Pricey for this stage in the game but definitely something I'll check into when I get to the point where I want to make a bigger investment. Those seem to be exactly the type of saddles that could suit my needs later down the road, but was too lacking in my knowledge to articulate that.

      Again, I know I'm doing the whole cart-before-the-horse thing but I like to buy once (or twice), and buy right. I figure if I start looking now by the time I do get something I'll be armed with enough knowledge to make a good choice. Many thanks!

      Comment


      • #23
        Thanks for the link! I like that saddle very much, and would imagine it's quite comfortable to sit in--I have an old 60's Pariani that looks somewhat like it seat-wise.

        No doubt about the superior weight distribution; and I think it would be perfectly fine to take beginner English lessons in. If showing is not a factor right now, there's no need to become a "fashionista." Many different kinds of English jumping saddles have come and gone; flat, flatter, postage stamp--but something born in the cavalry WORKS, for the horse as well as the rider. Furthermore, it will definitely work for you on the trail as well.

        I'd avoid "dressage" saddles like the plague. Many of them want to jam you into a rigid position that's only good for one thing and not very secure if you intend to use it outside the ring as well. And there's no need to specialize just yet. Don't limit your options; go "all purpose" or generic jumping. If you don't buy the M25, my choice would be an old Stubben Siegfried. Very hard to go wrong with one of those, but make sure it fits you!

        If you want to SHOW, on the other hand, whole other ball game!

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by SwampYankee View Post
          Thanks for the link! I like that saddle very much, and would imagine it's quite comfortable to sit in--I have an old 60's Pariani that looks somewhat like it seat-wise.

          No doubt about the superior weight distribution; and I think it would be perfectly fine to take beginner English lessons in. If showing is not a factor right now, there's no need to become a "fashionista." Many different kinds of English jumping saddles have come and gone; flat, flatter, postage stamp--but something born in the cavalry WORKS, for the horse as well as the rider. Furthermore, it will definitely work for you on the trail as well.

          I'd avoid "dressage" saddles like the plague. Many of them want to jam you into a rigid position that's only good for one thing and not very secure if you intend to use it outside the ring as well. And there's no need to specialize just yet. Don't limit your options; go "all purpose" or generic jumping. If you don't buy the M25, my choice would be an old Stubben Siegfried. Very hard to go wrong with one of those, but make sure it fits you!

          If you want to SHOW, on the other hand, whole other ball game!
          Stuebben Siegfried is what I mentioned, but I guess that one was nixed already.

          Those are as generic English saddles, good for a beginner as an advanced rider, especially good for the heavier riders and fit most horses.
          Used they are not very expensive either and the older ones better than many fancy new ones.

          Comment


          • #25
            Here's my two cents .... I absolutely am baffled by a German military saddle, please run away from that. Why on earth would you want one? Sometimes the majority is right, none of us ride in one of those, trust me.

            Buy a used Wintec all purpose. You say you are a bigger gal, get an 18" seat. I love a stubben siegfried, but if you aren't sure, a wintec is a perfectly good option for trying things out.

            I wouldn't avoid a dressage saddle, especially if you have ridden western, a flat prix de nations or something would probably scare the pants off you!

            I have a used wintec sport with a monoflap I put all the neices and nephews in to give them rides when they come over. Wider backed horse likes it, it's light, I hate it because it gets dye all over my breeches but frankly it's darn comfy.

            You should be able to pick up a good used english saddle that you can try out for $600 or under. Especially those old stubbens. There are a few argentine brands that are copies that aren't hideous, but be careful.

            I agree with Bluey, I think it was who posted you should find a good lesson barn and let them put you in one of their saddles.

            It's fun to switch disciplines but I also agree it's going to be a bit of a learning curve if you are self taught and have only ridden western on trails. I am sure you have a good stick to it seat and have all the instincts, but when people start talking about diagonals and putting your heels down and using direct and independent reins, it's going to be something very new.

            Good luck, and have fun. You may never go back!

            Comment


            • #26
              Don't buy a saddle unless you have sat in it. Believe me, many of them, though look freakingly similiar to each other, feel completly different. I don't know whether that holds true in Western saddles; it certainly hold true in English saddles. I know some saddles I simply cannot stand.

              I'm also in the camp of don't buy one yet. Why? Because if you have only ridden in Western saddles, you really don't know what you like, and what you don't like in English saddles. This is when you need your instructor to put you in lessons, let you get a feeling of what a English saddle rides like, on your own horse or a lesson horse, and then, help you to find a saddle that fits both your horse and you. You may develop a preference rather quickkly - and then, you can make an educated decision.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                Bluey I must have missed your Stubben Siegfried recommendation and I apologize. Going to google them after I type up this post and also owner of the barn I work at about them. He's got a whole dang collection of Stubbens, swears by them so his would probably be a good brain to pick. I'm not ruling anything out at this point

                I thank everyone for their input and recommendations. I think I'm giving off the impression that I'm jumping into this willy-nilly and I just want to say that's not the case (kind of). I won't be starting lessons until show season is over, there is just too much going on between the two barns to throw that in there too. I won't be making an actual purchase until I've had a few lessons and had the opportunity to ride in a few saddles so I can get a bit of a feel for what I like and don't like. Right now I'm wanting to get a feel for what is out there and what my options would be for the overall type of riding I do.

                Kwill, sorry but I just can't bring myself to do a Wintec. I don't like synthetic. I also won't use anything with a fiberglass or those injection-molded plastic trees. Just don't like them, heard too many horror stories and seen too many cracked, twisted and warped trees. I know they probably aren't bad saddles overall but I'll need something built for long rides with that dependability-under-abuse factor.

                Saying "no one" rides in those old military saddles is kind of a broad statement don't you think? I know they aren't for the majority of riders but that doesn't mean they are bad saddles. They were good enough for the cavalry riders of entire nations through many a war and campaign after all? I think they have proven their functionality. Actually no one I've spoken to who has ridden in one has had a bad thing to say about them, several people have sworn by them and the only people I've heard knock them are people who've never used one.

                I do thank you for the encouragement though and I'm sure you're right about the learning curve.

                Swamp Yankee, showing will likely not be in my future. That's money that could be spent on a nice long camping trip with the horses and I don't see myself giving that up anytime. I'm solely in this for the learning experience at this point!

                ETA: Just looked up Stubben Siegfried saddles on ebay, reasonable prices indeed! Looks like I've got another one to take into consideration, thanks Bluey!

                Comment


                • #28
                  Don't ever, ever, EVER apologize for being a traditionalist!

                  Count me in as another who prefers good leather over synth, bit over gadget, wool-flocked panels over foam, and 100% cotton over "technical" anything!

                  I also agree that any design tested, proven, and adopted by the cavalry, in the days when a sore back could be the difference between life and death for the man in the irons, is unlikely to be a bad design in any way.

                  Of course, I'm also addicted to weird antiques, and adore experimental tack. Hence the Minihan, the Whitman 10-hole leaping head sidesaddle, the McClellan . . .

                  But when I evented, it was the Siegfried all the way!

                  Let us know how you like the lessons, I'll be interested to hear how it goes!

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Long story, but relevent to your issue.

                    My QH had only been ridden Western when I bought him as a 6 yr. old. He was broke to rope & cut cattle. I switched him over to English, riding in a Bates Caprilli exchangeable gullet saddle. He became backsore in about 4 mths.

                    Saddle fitter came out & it was determined the saddle beneath the stirrup bars was pressing into his back. He has large shoulders with a slight dip behind his withers. Tried a few other saddles & settled on an Amerigo CC saddle.

                    Fast forward two yrs....My horse hated that saddle. The panels were too curvy toward the cantle & backsoreness was a constant issue inspite of chiro & massages. Saddle fitter assured me the saddle "fit" his back.

                    I switched him back to a full QH bar Western saddle & rode him exculsively in that for almost a year while I researched saddles again. His back was happy, he was happy, my ass was not.

                    I found the Smith Worthington site and called them. I knew from how happy he was in a saddle that gave him more covered area underneath the cantle with flatter panels, that that was the way to go.

                    I took back measurements, sent them to SW and discussed at length my requirements with one of their reps. Based on my horse's back measurements, they sent me out 4 demo saddles that we both felt would suit the bill. His back being fairly flat, their gussetted, wool flocked panels seemed to be exactly what he needed. They also will tweak the flocking to fit your horse better once you decide to purchase.

                    My horse thought he died & went to heaven in those panels. He is forward, no more issues with girthing up, no more mounting block issues.

                    I can't say enough fabulous things about SW's customer service & their willingness to work with me. They told me to ride the heck out of all the saddle to try them.

                    The saddle I chose, their Mystic MS seat saddle, runs about $900-1100. Cheap in todays market but I'm very happy with my decision. The quality is nice and I am thrilled that my horse is now happy in a non Western saddle.
                    Lost in the Land of the Know It Alls

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                    • #30
                      Wow! I had no idea that Smith-Worthington had saddles that affordable. They've been around forever, and I've never heard a bad thing about any of their work, ever! This is very good to know . . . thanks!

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Originally posted by SwampYankee View Post
                        Don't ever, ever, EVER apologize for being a traditionalist!

                        Count me in as another who prefers good leather over synth, bit over gadget, wool-flocked panels over foam, and 100% cotton over "technical" anything!

                        I also agree that any design tested, proven, and adopted by the cavalry, in the days when a sore back could be the difference between life and death for the man in the irons, is unlikely to be a bad design in any way.

                        Of course, I'm also addicted to weird antiques, and adore experimental tack. Hence the Minihan, the Whitman 10-hole leaping head sidesaddle, the McClellan . . .

                        But when I evented, it was the Siegfried all the way!

                        Let us know how you like the lessons, I'll be interested to hear how it goes!
                        I wish we were neighbors! I'd bribe you with margaritas to go on saddle shopping excursions with me. You'd be an excellent enabler since we seem to have the exact same taste.

                        Another reason I go for those old saddles is the build of my horse, he's narrow and slab-sided. Old turn-of-the century saddles always prove to be a better fit for him (when I find the right sized tree). I've been told by our local saddle historian of sorts he's built more like the horses back then and that's why so few modern saddles come close to fitting him. He's a very odd duck when it comes to saddle fitting, here's a pic if you want to see for yourself:

                        http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/y.../Harley004.jpg

                        Here he is decked out in his custom made Dixieland:
                        http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/y.../Harley019.jpg
                        http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/y.../Harley021.jpg

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          do consider a good Aussie stocksaddle, (not a cheapoknock-off)
                          comfortable for you and horse, good leg position for dressage (if that is of interest), great for trails - nice feeling of security.
                          I love my mare
                          http://inlinethumb31.webshots.com/51...200x200Q85.jpg

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Originally posted by ratherberiding View Post
                            do consider a good Aussie stocksaddle, (not a cheapoknock-off)
                            comfortable for you and horse, good leg position for dressage (if that is of interest), great for trails - nice feeling of security.
                            I actually looked at a really nice Syd Hill a while back (not for this purpose, but because it was dirt cheap for a Syd Hill and fit my mare quite nicely). Alas, I pussyfooted around and it got snatched out from underneath me.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Totally see what you mean about his build--and consider yourself LUCKY, because you can actually USE all the really cool antiques and curiosities out there! I've got a MINT McClellan of Spanish American War vintage I nobbled on e-Bay, only to discover it didn't fit all the round critters I own. I could use it on my youngster, though, who's built like your guy, or WAS before he ingested all that CT grass!

                              While an Aussie would be OK for trail, you can't really post in one, or at least I've never been able to without those wings or buckrolls or whatever they call them trapping my thighs. So for orthodox "English" lessons, that ain't gonna work. But if your horse is gaited . . . you'd have to ask your teacher!

                              So far if you don't have a plum Stubben drop on you from the mischievous saddle-spirits of e-Bay, I'd go with the M25.

                              Yeah, I wish we were neighbors too, we could start an Experimental Tack Exchange!

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Another vote here for the Stubben Sigfried. I sometimes ride in one that has got to be 50 years old at this point. It is in fabulous shape, nice deep seat and large knee rolls which da bomb for trailriding...

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  As a western rider that now goes both english and western, those saddles look awful and uncomfortable.

                                  A good quality all purpose or dressage saddle thats your horse and you would be best....after you go take some lessons on your horse in your saddle. Take the advice of those that say find the instructor to work with you and then try out their tack and then buy what you find you like.

                                  Avoid those old saddles, a really good quality older saddle or a new comfy english saddle are very secure and besides, that's what grab straps and breast collars are for. Don't be surprised if you instructor puts you on the lunge. Its all good.

                                  Go and have fun, us curvy gals fit great in english tack, too. If you are concerned about the english saddle being slick, put those chinks or chaps on and don't worry about it. After looking at your horse, I agree the Stubbens are a good potential for you, get a big enough seat etc. However, your western saddle is uber comfy looking and I doubt those old military saddles are going to be very comfortable.
                                  Last edited by craz4crtrs; Jul. 16, 2012, 10:31 AM. Reason: Clarification...

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Kwill, sorry but I just can't bring myself to do a Wintec. I don't like synthetic. I also won't use anything with a fiberglass or those injection-molded plastic trees. Just don't like them, heard too many horror stories and seen too many cracked, twisted and warped trees. I know they probably aren't bad saddles overall but I'll need something built for long rides with that dependability-under-abuse factor.
                                    uh.. wow. I'll go alert all the many endurance riders who log long hours in all sorts of weather and other abusive conditions in abetta and wintec and a wide variety of other synthetic saddles that they've all been doing the wrong thing.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by wendy View Post
                                      uh.. wow. I'll go alert all the many endurance riders who log long hours in all sorts of weather and other abusive conditions in abetta and wintec and a wide variety of other synthetic saddles that they've all been doing the wrong thing.
                                      Not saying they are doing anything wrong, to each their own and if that's what works for them then great. I personally have not heard great things about them. Also, the Wintecs they have at the barn I work for just don't look like they've held up well (loose stitching, fading, dye bleeding into riders' breeches, tears in the material and one has a warped tree, all of them less than 10 years old). Add to all that in general I just do not care for synthetic trees.

                                      I'm well aware some people love them, swear by them. I've decided they are not for me.

                                      I like good, soft, supple cow leather. I like wood trees. I like older saddles, ones that have withstood the test of time. If I buy new I prefer a custom fit done by a well-known saddle maker. When I buy a saddle, I want the odds to be good that I'll still be able to ride in it 20 years down the road. Sorry if that pisses you off, but that's what I prefer and I won't apologize for it.

                                      I would never pass judgement on anyone for using an Abetta or Wintec, or not appreciating my eclectic taste in saddles.

                                      On a side note, I'll bet your endurance rider friends using Wintecs are replacing their saddles more frequently than I replace my old saddles, and I'm comfortable saying mine see just as much use as their do. Again, nothing wrong with it. That's one of the advantages to those synthetics. Lightweight, easy to clean and relatively inexpensive to replace. Some people like that and I get it. However, it's not what I look for in a saddle.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by SwampYankee View Post
                                        Totally see what you mean about his build--and consider yourself LUCKY, because you can actually USE all the really cool antiques and curiosities out there! I've got a MINT McClellan of Spanish American War vintage I nobbled on e-Bay, only to discover it didn't fit all the round critters I own. I could use it on my youngster, though, who's built like your guy, or WAS before he ingested all that CT grass!

                                        While an Aussie would be OK for trail, you can't really post in one, or at least I've never been able to without those wings or buckrolls or whatever they call them trapping my thighs. So for orthodox "English" lessons, that ain't gonna work. But if your horse is gaited . . . you'd have to ask your teacher!

                                        So far if you don't have a plum Stubben drop on you from the mischievous saddle-spirits of e-Bay, I'd go with the M25.

                                        Yeah, I wish we were neighbors too, we could start an Experimental Tack Exchange!
                                        Lol, you should see the old Kentucky Rollback I bought a while back. Soooo narrow! Guy I bought it from brought it up to the barn warning me there was no way in hell it would fit any of my horses and then his jaw about hit the ground when I plopped it on Harley and looked like it was made just for him!

                                        The Aussie I almost got, I was just going to get it as a spare for the mare. It was a Syd Hill Southern Cross (expensive, good quality), in practically new condition for only $400 (new they run about 3k). Figured it would be a nice comfy spare for when I have friends out to ride since she's mainly a guest horse right now or I could toss it on ebay for a tidy profit. I waited too long though and missed out.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I only suggested the Wintec in the first place because you stated you were dipping your toe in the water of English riding, and they are inexpensive, and have good resale value (or just give it away when you are done). I was never suggesting you end up with one for your twenty year investment. The suggestion didn't have anything to do with endurance riding, you said you wanted to try riding english, maybe dressage -- if you are going the hunter jumper route, you are going to need an all purpose, not a dressage saddle, anyway. Lots shorter of a stirrup, different riding style.

                                          I rode in a Wintec Isabel for years, I liked it, sold it to an eventing friend who needed it for the dressage phase, she sold it to someone else when she moved up the levels.

                                          Now I ride in more expensive saddles, but the Wintec was good for a starter saddle. I own multiple saddles, including a Wintec I put beginners in because it's comfy, safe, and gives them confidence.

                                          It occurs to me that a German miltary saddle is designed for men with male pelvises and long flat thighs. Women generally like a narrower twist, and have rounder thighs (even skinny women, our thighs are just made differently). It could be they are extremely comfortable, but the fact that they haven't been reproduced in a modern form leads me to believe we have found better innovations in fitting the rider and the horse. Unlike Western saddles, English saddles vary widely in the size of the twist, the placement of the stirrup bars, and the length and width of the flap. You absolutely have to try out a bunch before you find one you like. It's crucial to find one that fits the horse correctly and places you in the correct position, as well. Actually, a narrow horse is easier to fit, plenty of narrow trees out there, or even a medium tree might fit.

                                          I realize that you have your mind made up already about what you will and won't do, but being slightly more open to ideas that have been hashed out already in a new discipline (such as saddles) might make the transition easier.

                                          Adding: even seat size varies in saddles -- some I can easily fit my bottom in a 17 1/2", and some I find an 18" to be more comfortable. You should be able to fit a flat hand width between the your rear end and the top of the cantle.

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