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President Bush Issues 48 Hr. Ultimatum....Please Pray For Our Soldiers

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  • well, it isn't at all clear how long and under what conditions the US is going to stay there. The Kittyhawk and another ship (I think the Constellation) have been called home today.

    As for the poor AlQueda prisoners in Guantanamo, what do you think is the appropriate status for members of a terrorist organization who were essentially thugs, taking over and exploiting an impoverished nation? Who used that country as a training ground to pervert Islam and plan a number of terrorist attacks on the US?

    I don't scratch my head over the "lack of respect" that Americans are afforded. It doesn't much matter to me what other countries feel. What matters is how they act and the committments they keep. Why is it because we aren't perfect, we then, necessarily, are bad? It strikes me as completely ironic that as Americans, we engage in so much self-loathing and angst when we are, with all of our many faults, the best thing going on the planet?

    [This message was edited by nhwr on Apr. 14, 2003 at 08:27 PM.]
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

    Comment


    • until somebody surrenders, its pretty ambiguous whether theres an occupation going on or not.

      Comment


      • I don't believe there is anything Americans can do what will make others who don't already "respect" us turn around and do so. The ones who don't respect us don't like us for a lot of reasons, one of which is jealousy - period.

        Unfortunately, not everyone is going to like us. Golly, I've had to learn that not everyone likes me either. It's hard, but I've learned to live with it. Will I sacrifice my beliefs and values to try to please someone else? NOT! I'm proud to live in a nation whose administration feels the same way.

        "I can justify anything!"
        \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

        Comment


        • Heard on NPR today that some of the mosques were asking their "parishioners" (for lack of the proper word) to bring back looted items. And they were getting enough response as to be hopeful much of it will be returned.

          The sad part is that in addition to looting Saddam's palaces (which I think is perfectly ok), they also looted the government and utility buildings and offices, the very places that are needed now to get water and electricity on and to set up an organization to run the place.

          Laurie
          Laurie

          Comment


          • "It was terribly unfortunate that the museums, ... got looted as well."

            I don't think it is "unfortunate". I think it is absolutely UNCONSCIONABLE.

            The items in that museum are some of the most valuable (from an information perspective) in the world. They represent all sorts of firsts. Mesopotamia is the "cradle of civilization".

            Thise things are absolutely unique and irreplaceable. many of them are also quite fragile and have probably been destroyed by the looters.

            I think it is REPREHENSIBLE that the US military stood by and did NOTHING to protect the PLANET'S earliest civilized history

            Janet
            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
            Janet

            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

            Comment


            • Uh what? Collectively "we're" upset about broken museum artifacts while a nation of people were/are going without basic care needs, being shot, being raped, having their children thrown in prison, being tortured and most recently having our captured soliders shot at point blank range?? This is perhaps a difference in perspectives between observers of a nation being held hostage by an evil man, who have the time and luxery to ponder such conditons, and the citizens of the country reacting to new found freedom after two generations of imprisonment.

              SLW

              Comment


              • Janet, I totally and completely agree.

                "Broken museum artifacts"? How about wonderful archaeological and anthropological RECORDS of OUR collective world history? And how about 'sold on the black market never to be seen again'? It's the equivalent of rioters being allowed to loot the Louvre or the Metropolitan Museum. It's inexcusable.

                New found freedoms do NOT include the right to steal whatever is not nailed down.

                -Albion

                'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

                Comment


                • Do you HEAR yourselves??????

                  The city of Baghdad is 3 square miles with over 5 million people... Would you rather we protect the PEOPLE, (including our own), or THINGS, (regardless of their historical value)?

                  Maybe some "peacekeeping" forces in France post WWII were thinking of the things in the Louvre instead of the 40,000 French citizens murdered by fellow Frenchmen....

                  "I can justify anything!"
                  \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                  Comment


                  • So I just want to be sure I understand what is being said here.

                    It is being suggested that it is the troops fault that the looting happened? Is that what you are saying?
                    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                    Comment


                    • hobson, it's kind of hard to withdraw from an agreement that was never entered into... kyoto was voted down 95 to nuffin in the Senate. Clinton wouldn't even go near it. I don't believe we signed up for the anti-landmine treaty either... The child soldiers one we are going along with. 17-year olds need parental permission to join our armed services.

                      "I can justify anything!"
                      \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                      Comment


                      • It is being suggested that the troops COULD have prevented the looting of our collective heritage, and DIDN'T EVEN TRY.

                        Janet
                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
                        Janet

                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                        Comment


                        • that Kyoto thing is not worth an old shoe

                          Comment


                          • If they had tried and in so doing, an Iraqi civilian had been hurt or killed, what do you think the reaction would have been, Janet?

                            We don't have any idea what it's like over there, TV crews present or not. How dare anyone sitting at their nice computers in our wonderful free country condemn our soldiers for not doing something you think they should do when they're the ones in danger, trying to protect other living beings.

                            "I can justify anything!"
                            \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                            Comment


                            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
                              I don't scratch my head over the "lack of respect" that Americans are afforded. It doesn't much matter to me what other countries feel. What matters is how they act and the committments they keep. Why is it because we aren't perfect, we then, necessarily, are bad? It strikes me as completely ironic that as Americans, we engage in so much self-loathing and angst when we are, with all of our many faults, the best thing going on the planet?

                              [This message was edited by nhwr on Apr. 14, 2003 at 08:27 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              It matters because we are the strongest thing going on the planet. We throw our military weight around and manipulate the other countries; we had better be damn sure we're not making any mistakes in what we're doing.

                              It really gets me the way people act like the US will always be a superpower because we are one now (not saying above quoted poster is saying this). And worse, that therefore we are entitled to govern the rest of the world. I've always thought it a basic presumption that Might DOESN'T equal Right. And there is no such thing as an invincible superpower. There's been no evidence of one standing the test of time, either.

                              I've only read a little of this topic, and I'm too late to reply to most of it.
                              But:
                              I am against this war and this doctrine of pre-emptive strike. I hope our loyal troops get home safely and soon.

                              I'm going to live forever or die trying.

                              Comment


                              • I'm rather frustrated with all of the statements that our troops should have gotten in the midst of all of the looters and saved artifacts, as if it would have been that easy.

                                C'mon folks. They were dealing with a mob mentality of a people who HAD been being shot and killed ("slapped on the hand") for so much as voicing that they WANTED something in the recent past, who had just had that leader removed from the city.
                                What do we know about mob mentality??
                                They will NOT stop until they do what they want to do.
                                So, we should have gotten out the good ole M-16's and taken to shooting men, women, and children, for the sake of THINGS.
                                Yeah. Okay.
                                What happened to all the people so concerned that our entire presence in Iraq was for our own good? What's more important? The lives of human beings, or relics of life long ago. So THINGS are more important then PEOPLE.
                                Yes.. That DOES sound like the America that a lot of the world depicts, doesn't it?

                                I mean.. Saving the museum was MUCH MUCH more important then having a massive bloodbath in the process.


                                (I'm pregnant and sarcasm is simply rolling off of my tongue tonight. Tomorrow I'll be diplomatic.)

                                ________
                                Sarah

                                "Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one's horse as he is leaping."~ Julius Hare
                                ________
                                Sarah
                                formerly known as Alohamora
                                \"Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one\'s horse as he is leaping.\"~ Julius Hare

                                Comment


                                • Might does not equal right. I agree with you there, Lisi. I just don't think it applies in this case, except that far fewer lives have been lost because of it.

                                  "I can justify anything!"
                                  \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                                  Comment


                                  • Why is it that when the negatives are voiced it is called "critical discussion", but when the positives are espoused it is administration propaganda? Not that all the positives have been called propaganda here, but it sure seems like more times than not it is discounted as such. I get so sick of hearing so much negativism. Everytime we take a step forward, we are pounded back with negatives. We didn't do this right, we didn't do that right, we shouldn't be there in the first place, yada yada yada.

                                    Why should any other country feel respect for our country when the loudest shouts are negatives? And who the hell cares whether other countries like us or not? The good that America has and does far outweighs any and all the bad. No country is perfect. Not everyone likes those who lead. They may suck-up, but they don't necessarily like.



                                    Duffy, remember, not only were they trying to protect the Iraqi people, they were trying to protect themselves. I consider that a priority.

                                    PEOPLE were priority ONE, Janet. Is the life of a person less valuable than historical items? Talk about a way to turn the mobs against our soldiers. Is that what you guys would prefer to see? That we turn our guns on the Iraqi people and in turn, the Iraqi people turn on our soldiers. Recipe for disaster. And wouldn't that justify all the arguments for not going in there in the first place? How convenient.

                                    Now, the Iraqi people have asked for our help. And we will assist them, not police them.

                                    ********
                                    I'm just the mom.

                                    Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

                                    Comment


                                    • Lisi;

                                      You raise a real issue. I agree with your concern about the presumption that we are and always will be a superpower, to a certain extent.

                                      I believe that it is our 1st amendment right (free speech) and the general affluence of our population that allows for our ranking as a superpower. I think that because, for the most part, people in the US don't feel threatened and they can, they are willing to consider others points of view as they are presented. And I think that open discussion and disagreement helps keep this all in balance. I supported this military action because I think Saddam was a really bad guy for any number of reasons and nothing short of this would stop what was happening in Iraq under his rule. Is he the only thug/ruler on the planet? Certainly not. He was the one that all members of the UN Sercurity council agreed to focus on. Do you think that it was a coincidence that as he became more intransagent that N. Korea pulled out of the nuke treaty? Or that, now that his regime has been blown off the map, the N. Koreans are making concessions? I don't.

                                      In America, we can say what we want. I, for one, listen hard to the opposition. I think it keeps me honest. It keeps me real. It forces me to examine my ideals all the time. That is a good thing. Opinions, trends and sentiments change; what is right and what is wrong don't. Because I give most people credit for having at least my level of intellect, I think as long as we can freely examine issues, we will do OK.
                                      See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                                      Comment


                                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
                                        Thise things are absolutely unique and irreplaceable. many of them are also quite fragile and have probably been destroyed by the looters.

                                        I think it is REPREHENSIBLE that the US military stood by and did NOTHING to protect the PLANET'S earliest civilized history

                                        Janet
                                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        Their lives are also probably pretty unique, irreplaceable and quite fragile. I think the military has it's priorities. (Oh wait a minute guys, stop what you're doing, someone is making off with a vase ???) It's a shame but I'm sure some will show up on Ebay some day. Actually it's probably good that it happened...this thread seemed to be slowing down and this gives everyone something else to complain about! (That IS what it's all about, right? )

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Albion:
                                          New found freedoms do NOT include the right to steal whatever is not nailed down.

                                          -Albion

                                          'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          Tell that to all the criminals over here on welfare, new found or not. Vote Republican

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