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President Bush Issues 48 Hr. Ultimatum....Please Pray For Our Soldiers

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  • Thank you Moesha.

    I'm staying out of it But I will agree that I am also a Canadian who agrees with Canada's stand. That, as a country, is our option.

    But....I am travelling to Los Angeles next month. I have been to the US hundreds of times, in fact it is our favourite holiday destination....but for the first time EVER, I am....fearful.

    I fear the comments, the looks, the bubbling-under judgements from strangers. May not happen, but.... For the first time in my life, I am scared of what reaction my nationality will bring.

    Comment


    • Well, Turkey was quite willing to allow the U.S. to use their airspace for $93 Billion. A figure the U.S. rejected.

      Comment


      • Read your history. The US goes in when it is in their (perceived) interests to go in. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not saying other countries are more noble in their motives, but let's not be delusional about US motives somehow occupying a higher moral plane.s

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by halfhalt:
          The US goes in when it is in their (perceived) interests to go in.
          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          And what do other countries do? They do anything different?

          Comment


          • Michael Moore is a kook but he is often funny and frequently has insightful points to make.

            I mean, you gotta admire a guy who for his TV show (TV Nation) called up the heads of big companies and asked them to demonstrate the use of their signature product. For example, he called all the automaker presidents and asked them to demonstrate changing the oil in one of their cars. I think it was the Ford guy who was somewhat confused but cheerfully changed the oil in an Explorer (or similar) by himself without difficulty.

            He has also suggested that the Palestinians could get much further if they used Ghandi's tactics and simply sat and peacefully occupied all the checkpoints. I don't know if it's his idea originally, but IMHO it's one of the smartest solutions I've seen.

            Plenty of things I don't agree with but he always makes me think.
            If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

            Comment


            • Would you allow the U.S. to fly over your Airspace and attack a county that might or might not have weapons of Mass Destruction and chemical and biological weapons that could EASILY reach your cities and your people? Without something in return to aide an economy DIRECTLY affected by this... I think not.


              And frankly there was more aid promised earlier for allowing the U.S. to stage out of Eastern Turkey..which was rejected overhwhelmingly by the palriment.

              Everyone has something to gain and something to loose...Countries should not be picked out and only their flaws and motives picked apart...especially because they are not "falling in line"

              Talk about the Pot calling the Kettle Black.
              "All life is precious"
              Sophie Scholl

              Comment


              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
                Countries should not be picked out and only their flaws and motives picked apart.
                <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Yet that's exactly what is being done to the US now.

                Comment


                • Another thought on France and Germany.

                  In addition to whatever other motivations they have, one thing I haven't seen discussed here is that there is the very real possibility that this conflict will increase terrorist recruitment among young Arabs, and that those countries would be likely to get the brunt of it. I believe American polling in Arab countries has reported that 80+% of those polled believed that terrorism would increase.

                  That is alarming enough for us Americans, who are an ocean away and not used to thinking much about terrorism before 9/11. However, terrorism has been an issue in Europe for much longer, and their closer proximity gives them a much larger basis for fear. Further, several al-Qaeda cells were found in Germany (as well as the US and other countries) and France has a huge Arab population that already causes them some domestic turmoil.

                  I think it's fair to say that they are a much easier and a more likely target for less organized terror organizations than the US would be.

                  This is not to say that I think that "running scared" is the right response - but that there is real and honest opinion that there were less risky ways to handle the crisis, and that an argument could be made that the French faced very real and large threats to their civillian population and also to their internal security.
                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                  Comment


                  • Yes but we decided to do this knowing that a lot of the international community was against us.

                    Like I said I am not going to debate it because we can all go on for years. are we going to talk about history of region? the Arming and training Iraq against Iran? The Ottoman Emprire? British Pretoleum? World War one and two? The Set up of the Shah in Iran? Training the Taliband against Russia? Where do we start and who do we blame?? There is simply too much inolved here that stems from centuries of conflict, change and strife.


                    I want Saddam Hussein to be accountable for what he has done, I want my Cousins and all of the U.S. Military home as soon as possible safe.

                    I want the world to go back to some normalcy and to have people not living in fear.
                    "All life is precious"
                    Sophie Scholl

                    Comment


                    • For a different perspective

                      CBC re-broadcast a documentary last night on the lives of ordinary Iraqis entitled, "Generation of Hate' - focusing on the children of Iraq, who comprise 50% of the population.

                      Enlightening, eerie, heart-breaking - terrifying. The documentary closes with a shot of dozens of young boys chanting against America.

                      http://www.cbc.ca/witness/iraq/interview.html

                      Comment


                      • Duffy, I said I respect an individual's right to choose to join the armed forces. As for police, I don't equate them with military. War is not part of the job description.

                        Comment


                        • Yes, I've heard people say terrorism against Americans will increase if we fight Iraq. I have news for you: it's going to increase whether or not we fight Iraq.

                          We weren't fighting either Iraq or Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia on 9/11, were we? Can bin Laden hate us more than he currently does? Al Queda has already successfully executed and continues to plan, terrorist attacks. Do you think for one moment that if we didn't go into Iraq, these people would stop their plans? I don't believe that for one second.

                          With Hussein paying each & every Palestinian families $25-28,000 for a suicide bombing, that was in place before we went in. Would he stop paying them if we stayed out? Would bin Laden stop planning terrorist attacks if we didn't go in? No way.

                          Recruitment is high among terrorists. If Israel didn't fight back each time they were bombed, do you really think their enemies would say okay, we'll stop trying to wipe you off the earth now, you didn't fight back?

                          Comment


                          • Heidi that is sad....lives wasted..on hate, potentials never met....another genreation brainwashed to hate instead of being allowed to grow and build a better country for themselves and the world.

                            "All life is precious"
                            Sophie Scholl

                            Comment


                            • Reed - excellent post. Accountability.

                              With respect to the contempt and anger towards countries that are not following suit with the US, please remember that several of them are democracies. Democratic government. Accountability to their people. Is the French or German or Turkish populace in favor of their country supporting the US, and their leaders are disregarding them? Or are their leaders doing what is more expected of a democratic government and following the will of their people? Is Britain or Germany acting more like a democratic government should in this type of situation?

                              Certainly, leaders can shape opinions and obviously the leadership in France and Germany are not interested in trying to reshape their citizens opinions, but I can not understand such contempt. They are reflecting their citizens' wishes in not providing US support. Turkey, even if it were not on the fringe of receiving the possible onslaught of WMDs, has both poplular and CONSTITUTIONAL issues with our situation. Their people don't want them to support the US. Support for the US places their people in danger and threatens the stability of their own government given the resentment such action takes. Supporting the US means increasing the complexity of their own situation with their Khurdish population and their own uneasy border. Beyond all of this, also, is the fact that their constitution does not allow them to let a foreign nation base off their soil for a military altercation without the equivalent of a UN resolution.

                              Just bc there were discussions to try to wring every $ commitment they might get from the US as a preliminary to the parlimentary vote, there can be no confidence, whatsoever, that the parliment would have voted in favor, even with the additional aid package. There was even discussion that the opposition might abstain from voting to allow such a resolution to "pass" and then attempt to have the party and party leaders removed for violating the constitution. Everything is a little more complicated than - "We need X billion more $"

                              Personally, I believe the French have likely been violating trade sanctions and this will come out. But that is just one factor that may have affected the route taken by their leadership. If their citizens were in support of the US action, and if the US used even minor league diplomacy, there could have been a way of "letting bygones be bygones" After all, we were not dissuaded from selling weapons when Iraq was killing its Khurdish population, but we can let that be a bygone so that we are now the liberators.

                              I really am not happy with how the situation has been handled, what has been told to us, etc. but I also have to admit that I will not be sad to see Saddam go. I am very worried, however, with what will replace him and how the way this whole thing was handled will affect stability in the region and the world. I am very worried that we did not have someone this war, like Stormin Norman last war, who absolutely DEMANDED enough troops to keep the situation as safe as possible. I am nauseous over the POW situation.

                              But what really concerns me is the point that Moesha made - that things are not a simple black and white, but are so very complex. We have lived in a sound bite society for so long that no one wants to have to consider more information that a sentence summary before forming a "deadset" opinion.

                              Soundbites start a fight pretty easily.

                              Comment


                              • &lt;&lt;UNITED NATIONS (AP) - The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations walked out of a debate on the Iraqi war Thursday after Iraq's ambassador accused the United States of trying to exterminate the Iraqi people.&gt;&gt;

                                Oh, yes, that's us. We are trying to exterminate the Iraqi people. What is WITH other nations who just sit there are allow this nonsense to be said?

                                Yesterday I read that France, China, Russia, and Germany are insisting that every cent of humanitarian aid being brought into Iraq be paid for NOT by the UN, but by the USA. France & Germany et al. are choosing to let the people of Iraq go hungry rather than pay one penny in aid. Now that's appalling. And they criticize us?

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We weren't fighting either Iraq or Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia on 9/11, were we? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  In answer to your question, the US was bombing Iraq on September 10, 2001 and there were civilian casualties. This was reported in US newspapers on 9-11.

                                  Comment


                                  • [QUOTE]Originally posted by poltroon
                                    In addition to whatever other motivations they have, one thing I haven't seen discussed here is that there is the very real possibility that this conflict will increase terrorist recruitment among young Arabs, and that those countries would be likely to get the brunt of it. I believe American polling in Arab countries has reported that 80+% of those polled believed that terrorism would increase.

                                    QUOTE]

                                    Actually I mentioned this possibility a couple of pages ago

                                    "Just because it's my god given right to dissent, it DOES make it right Duffy. I'm not going to sit here and support this travesty while American and British men and women get killed, not to mention the "oops, we didn't mean to drop those bombs on your houses" innocents who happen to live in Baghdad. I want enough people to say bullsh!t to the fact that because we are the most powerful nation in the world, doesn't make it right that we think we can impose our values and beliefs on other countries, much less bomb the crap out of them just because they might come over and get us someday. Get real-the breeding grounds for AlQueda to get new Arab recruits willing to fly planes into buildings or be human bombs is going to be incredibly fertile now that we have pissed off the entire Arab and Muslim world by this attack. I have heard many experts on the news discuss this very thing-you think that after we "win" this war with Saddam that we are going to be safer? Not a chance the experts say--Bush's little war here is opening up a Pandora's box of hatred the like we in the western world have never seen."

                                    Cheers

                                    Elippses Users Clique........
                                    Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group
                                    Ellipses users clique ...
                                    TGFPT,HYOOTGP

                                    Comment


                                    • You are right, Jer. Even I forgot about trying to enforce the UN resolutions all those nations voted for. We have been dropping stuff on Iraq for awhile.

                                      Comment


                                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lilblackhorse:
                                        Get real-the breeding grounds for AlQueda to get new Arab recruits willing to fly planes into buildings or be human bombs is going to be incredibly fertile now that we have pissed off the entire Arab and Muslim world by this attack. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        I think flying planes into buildings is not going to work for them; I think they're going to do other stuff. Why? Because the PA plane showed them that average Americans will beat the crap out of them and run the plane into the ground rather than let them crash into a building. Not our soldiers, not our FBI or CIA, but ordinary blokes off the street with absolutely no training fought back and stopped them. They swung on their parallel bars & jumped over walls in their desert training camp films and a couple guys in business suits with briefcases accompanied by some flight attendants armed with a pot of boiling water defeated them. These folks know they're in for trouble when they come here. The Fahadeen have nothing on us when it comes to determination.

                                        Again, I agree the Iraq invasion isn't helping, but frankly, these terrorists ultimately hate us for what we ARE, not what we do, and that will never change. We need to get used to it. We hear from them about our evil, sinful culture that they don't want, so fine, don't want it. A lot of our culture disgusts me, but guess what? I neither do nor watch those things. They want CONTROL. They hate us because contrary to the BS a lot of you seem to be swallowing, the US doesn't want control. Muslims are freer to worship in the US than anywhere else in the world. Women can worship too, and they can show some skin on the beach and kids can listen to any kind of music they want and we all can get on this BB and kvetch about anyone we please and guess what, no one cuts our tongues out. And man, they hate us for that.

                                        80% of the fatalities in the Kenya embassy bombings were African Muslims. Did it matter to the terrorists? No.

                                        I couldn't understand in Afghanistan why the world (including us prior to 9/11) thought it was just peachy keen okay to abuse women the way the Taliban does. People talk about how evil it was to let the Nazis exterminate the Jews, gays, and Catholics, yet we all sit back and watch Afghanistan decree that women can a) not hold jobs, b) not attend school, c) not be outside unless in the presence of a male relative, and no one lifts a finger.

                                        Here is NOT a rhetorical question: for those of you against the bombings of Afghanistan & Iraq, what do you think we should have done?

                                        After 9/11, should we have said, oops, too bad, that stunk, and done nothing?

                                        After 12 yrs. of ignored UN resolutions, should we have continued for 12 more years to do nothing?

                                        [This message was edited by Anne FS on Mar. 27, 2003 at 03:03 PM.]

                                        Comment


                                        • One possible reason we sat back in Afghanistan, was that Unocal and various other oil companies were actively negotiating with the Taliban for an oil pipeline deal. Oddly enough, we were not only not lifting fingers, but actively supporting SH while he was killing, maiming and torturing. We encouraged rebellion during the Gulf War, then pulled out and let them be slaughtered. No one seemed to lose any sleep over it. We haven't cared about the Geneva convention vis a vis the Israeli destruction of Palestinian homes, although we are pretty concerned about it now that there are US POWs. We forced the UN to pass a resolution that no US peacekeeping troops could be subject to war crimes prosecution and refuse to be subject to the World Court.

                                          I'm not saying that there are not some solid reasons for some of these things, but off of even this short list, is it that hard to see why there is a lack of trust for our motivation?

                                          Comment

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