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President Bush Issues 48 Hr. Ultimatum....Please Pray For Our Soldiers

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  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flashy Gray:
    YNH: great suggestions. I have no immediate family serving currently; can us non-military folk put care packages together for any soldiers and ensure they'll get through and be used? Maybe through the USO? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    yes. your post is making me cry.
    ask your friends in church, at work,... anywhere. Get his/her full APO address and pack carefully. Make sure your info is on the outside of the package. you'd be surprised who has family, husbands, wives, kids over there. A package would lift spirits! Include a card saying you're a friend of so and so and you are sending some support from home!

    Comment


    • Every single guy in my family has been in the military--for at least a while--all the way back to the Revolutionary War (Basil Shaw, glamorous position of Quartermaster) and including WWI, WWII, Vietnam, and Desert Storm.

      They've got guts I can't even imagine ... putting their lives on the line for ideas. It makes me humble and grateful.

      For any of our gals/guys that frequent this board:

      Thank You. Big Time.

      The adventure has begun...
      KT
      "For God hates utterly
      The bray of bragging tongues."
      Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders

      Comment


      • It is being reported on the news media in Europe that Tariq Aziz and his family have been killed by the Republican Guard trying to escape Bagdad. I don't know if this is true but it explains why Saddam hasn't been overthrown. I also lived in Africa for 12 years and I observed that many dictators keep the families of their right-hand men close in order to control the actions of their ministers.

        Comment


        • Here's an article on the current status of the coalition, from today's news headlines on Salon.com

          World Opposition Rises Against Coalition
          - - - - - - - - - - - -
          By William J. Kole

          March 19, 2003 | Vienna, Austria -- President Bush's "coalition of the willing" is a conflicted alliance: Its political leaders want to help disarm Saddam Hussein by force, but many of their people want no part of it.

          "I'm sure Saddam is a bad guy, but you don't need an army to swat a fly," said Peter Illes, 49, a parking ticket inspector in Hungary, where three out of four people say they are against an American-led war and their government's pledge to help.

          Secretary of State Colin Powell said Tuesday that by his count, 30 nations consider themselves coalition members and 15 more have quietly promised support.

          However, some of the countries Powell named, such as Japan, have said they will offer only post-conflict help. Others, such as Spain and the Netherlands, have offered military support but not combat troops. And some, such as the Philippines, have not yet approved basic support such as U.S. overflights.

          Powell's list also included countries like anti-war Belgium, which said it was allowing use of its territory for military transports mainly to show Washington that it is important for nations to work together.

          A U.S.-led force of about 300,000 troops, roughly 1,000 combat aircraft and a naval fleet is in place in the Persian Gulf region, ready to attack Iraq on Bush's orders. Britain, the United States' chief war partner, has sent 45,000 troops and its largest naval deployment since the 1982 Falklands War.

          Even France, vilified by Americans for blocking a U.N. resolution authorizing force, made it onto Powell's "B" list for opening its airspace under treaty obligations and offering more help if Saddam uses biological or chemical weapons.

          Despite fierce public opposition in Australia, Prime Minister John Howard said Tuesday his government would commit 2,000 military personnel already on standby in the Middle East, along with 14 Hornet fighter jets, transport ships, aircraft and other firepower.

          Poland said it would commit 200 troops. Turkey said Wednesday it would ask parliament to let the U.S. military use Turkish airspace in an Iraq war but would not immediately ask lawmakers to allow in American troops.

          Italy has continuously expressed its solidarity, though it has no plans to send troops and surveys suggest 75 percent of Italians oppose a war. Parliament was expected to debate a government request Wednesday to authorize the use of bases and airspace.

          Spain, the United States' staunchest ally after Britain, seemed unlikely to play a significant military role. The government on Tuesday ruled out sending any troops but said it would provide military personnel and equipment in a support capacity and offer warplanes to defend Turkey.

          Spain's strong pro-U.S. stance has proved deeply unpopular: All opposition parties oppose a war, and recent polls show more than 80 percent of Spaniards do, too.

          The Netherlands has contributed three Patriot missile batteries and 360 men to operate them and defend Turkey in case of an Iraqi counterattack. But Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende said Dutch troops are out of the question "given the resistance in society."

          The NATO alliance -- which is deeply divided over the prospect of war -- will not play a direct military role in a strike on Iraq but has sent units to defend Turkey.

          Powell's roster contained some surprises.

          Bulgaria, which has stood by the United States in the Security Council and offered a 150-member noncombat unit, wasn't listed among Powell's top 30.

          Some of the most spirited, albeit largely symbolic, offers of help have come from unlikely countries.

          Tiny Albania, which is mostly Muslim and among Europe's poorest nations, has offered a small non-combat army unit of 70 soldiers. It has also made available its airspace, land routes and territorial waters.

          Romania is among eight countries behind the former Iron Curtain that have lined up behind Washington -- partly out of gratitude for American support during the Cold War, and partly because they expect U.S. backing in their quests to join NATO and the European Union.

          Romania has opened its airspace, contributed 278 non-combat nuclear, biological and chemical decontamination specialists, military police and mine-clearing units, and offered the use of strategic ports on the Black Sea.

          "It's not about supporting an intervention, as we don't even have the means to do it. It's about meeting certain obligations as allies," said President Ion Iliescu.
          "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry

          Comment


          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> For those of us who have friends or family stationed in the middle east, here are some good ideas to put in care packages:
            <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            Don't forget the Avon Skin-So-Soft. When my brother was fighting in Desert Storm, it was the one thing that he constantly asked for from us back here because it was the best thing they found to repel the sand fleas that plagued the troops.

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            A dog has one master, a cat has an entire staff.
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            If the Number 2 pencil is so popular, why is it still number 2?

            Comment


            • Also, for those who want to take a look, here are the headlines/teasers for today's Salon articles on News and Politics, and it's opinion columns. The featured story is the first one, an opinion piece:

              Wednesday, March 19, 2003
              [In Opinion]
              See No Evil
              Progressives have lots of arguments against the war on Iraq -- some of them compelling. But why aren't they burning to free Saddam's oppressed masses?
              By Edward W. Lempinen

              News & Politics

              In Iraq, Fear is Blooming Like a Flower
              Refugees streaming north into Kurdish-controlled territory bring stories of midnight abductions and warnings of chemical attack.
              By Phillip Robertson

              Odd Man Out
              Career diplomat John Brady Kiesling talks about his resignation over U.S. policy in Iraq, and a president "not intellectually equipped" to understand worldwide opposition to the war
              By Eric Boehlert

              Bush Moves an Inch on the Mideast
              Under heavy pressure from British Prime Minister Tony Blair, the president finally raises the Israeli-Palestinian issue. But does he really intend to solve it?
              By Aluf Benn

              The World on the War
              How the international press views Bush's ultimatum and the looming war
              Compiled by Laura McClure

              Opinion

              Take This War and Love It
              Iraqi exiles see a U.S. invasion as something to celebrate, not protest
              By Adil Awadh and Sayyid Ali Al-Ridha

              A Higher Threshold for War
              In a resignation speech to the British Parliament, Robin Cook said that "history will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations" over Iraq -- and earned an unprecedented standing ovation

              Joe Conason's Journal
              Bush pulls a fast one on our allies -- and everyone will suffer for it
              "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry

              Comment


              • June, no worries. I hate it when I can see that a word looks wrong...and a dictionary at hand wasn't going to help you

                Miss Perfect, thank you for the article-had not heard that poll. Perhaps the west coasters are more of the watch and wait types, as I know very few people in our town wanting to support this war.

                I like that one quote by the fellow about not needing an army to swat a fly-do I think Hussein is a bad guy? Totally--what happened to covertly sending in operatives to "take out" someone....I'm sure that the CIA has sharpshooters and such who could carry out the task with ease.....I don't think anyone here or even in Europe doesn't agree the guy needs to go--its the "HOW" thing and timing of all this that has our knickers in a knot.

                Elippses Users Clique........
                Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group
                Ellipses users clique ...
                TGFPT,HYOOTGP

                Comment


                • Tariq Aziz is a christian, a Copt. Although he has been the foreign minister in Iraq, he is not in Saddam's "inner circle". About 3 years ago, Saddam had Aziz's brother imprisonned on ficitious charges and he (Aziz) has been essentially hostage to Saddam's will.
                  See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                  Comment


                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eomer:
                    The problem is there is no reasonable way to talk about war. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Unfortunately, there has to be. I think Eomer and I are pretty much on the same side of this one, and probably pretty much in agreement on war in general (I'll have to confess I don't have the personal experience that he does). But despite the horrors of war, there may be times when it's necessary. And necessary or not, there WILL be times when it happens, and it needs to be discussed reasonably.

                    I apologize if I was too personally critical of those who joke about it; I just don't feel that war, justifiable or not, should ever be the subject of glib jokes, considering that it always takes an unfair toll on innocent lives.

                    Considering the toll in innocent lives, and the relative worth of one life vs. another, I considered some interesting hypothetical questions (purely hypothetical because the issues are so complex that they couldn't ever be resolved this simply, but worth thinking about anyway)

                    How many innocent Iraqi civilian lives are you willing to sacrifice to remove Saddam from power? Would you be willing to sacrifice the same number of US civilians? or even half that number? If not, does that mean Americans are worth more than Iraqis?
                    (I know this is a loaded question, and I don't disagree with those who say it's Saddam's fault and we wouldn't have to worry about it if he wasn't such a vile evil person. But unfortunately that doesn't change the fact that forcibly removing him costs innocent human iives, so we need to consider that cost.)

                    Suppose you could prevent an act of terrorism that would cost 100 American civilian lives by taking military action that cost 1000 Iraqi civilian lives? Is it worth it, considering the Iraqis that would die were not personally responsible for the terrorism? If so, does that mean Americans are better than Iraqis?

                    I realize these questions are overly simplistic. Unfortunately, we can't correct all the unfairness and misfortune in the world. It is unfair that innocent civilians have to live under the rule of a dictator whose actions have such horrendous repercussions for his people. We can't fix that. And maybe some innocent Iraqis do have to die as a result of being unlucky enough to be born in a country whose ruler incites the rest of the world to military action. But, as Eomer says, you just can't shrug that off, wash your hands, and say "Sorry, but it's Saddam's fault". You need to open your eyes, consider the human cost of the action you're supporting, and say "Yes, I know this is horrible, but we have to do it". And I think you need to consider whether, and why, you are more willing to sacrifice civilians in another country than civilians in your own. What makes one life more valuable than another?

                    Comment


                    • I can't agrue the fact that Hussein is a disgusting human being that has done horrible things to his own people. He is and he has and will probably continue to do so as long as he is in power. I'm sure he cheered when our trade center fell. Then again, so did his people, Wonder why? Could it be because our country helped put a ruthless, evil man in power? Our gov't meddled in their affairs for our own gain. We meddle in far too much that is not our concern and often make a mess of it because we judge what is best for others based on our culture and our beliefs. What works for us here will not work for Iraq. If I believed for a minute this war would free the Iraqi people and allow them to live in peace I would have an easier time supporting it. I just don't see that happening. Until the Iraqi people want to change their culture and beliefs women will still be viewed as property, and the stonger clans will torture and kill the weaker. Maybe it won't be Saddam at the helm but it will be someone else just like him. Take a good look at Afganistan, their in much better shape now aren't they? How many people in that country do you think are thanking us for our "help"?
                      I also have no doubt that Hussein has WMD. However in 12 years he has not attempted to use them against another country. Wonder why? Because we, with the support and help of the world community would blow him off the face of the map before he could lauch a second weapon. The idea of having WMD is not to ever use them. We have them to deter the crazies of the world from using theirs. If what we have in our arsenol doesn't do that this war certainly will not.
                      Finally, if anyone thinks getting rid of Hussein will end the terroist threat to our country I've got a bridge in Broklyn I'd love to sell you. This war will escalate terrorism. These terrorist are fighting the only way they know how for what they believe in. They don't value life as we do and believe that by giving their life fighting the "infidels" they will get the ultimate reward. Its horrible and wrong but the worst acts done to mankind have been in the name of religion, so here we go again.
                      I don't claim to know what the answer to this mess is. there may not be one. I see us going down a slippery slope, this is just the start and it scares the crap out of me. I'm scared for our men and women over there and greive for the losses that are sure to come both in the middle east and at home. No one wins in war. Even for those who survive their soul will be forever changed. Right or wrong, this is a sad, sad time.
                      The big question is will the human race learn to live in peace before we destroy ourselves? Right now its not looking good.
                      www.stallionstation.com/phoenixhill

                      Comment


                      • OK...any one who thinks the opinion of the UN should matter had better make reference back to that small incident called the REVOLUTIONARY WAR where we fought to REMOVE ourselves from the yoke of EUROPE when dealing with issues that AFFECT our SOVERIEGNTY as a NATION. The only reason we all can post here (liberal or conservative, educated or brainwashed) is becasue SOMEONE cared enought to RID the world of the oppression of a two bit, evil, tyrants like Hitler, Saddam, etc etc etc...Given enough time we COULD try to REASON with these types of people IF THEY WERE AT ALL REASONABLE!!!!!!!!! Amen to the Charlie Danials open letter about Hollyweirds who have NO clue about living in the real world! For God's sake they get paid HUGE dollars to PRETEND to be something!!!! Thank God Bush and Blair and the great American Sevice men and women have their priorities straight so your children and mine will not have to live with evil and oppression under the dicates of a regime of evil. God Bless America and Let Freedom ring!

                        Betsy
                        www.threewindsfarmny.com

                        Lead, follow, or get out of the way...
                        The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                        Comment


                        • I think it is a mistake to link this war to terrorism. Although, I do believe there will be some terrorism as fallout from the war. This is about removing an evil man from a position of power where he oppresses his own people and threatens the world.

                          I am sadden by the prospect of innocent life being destroyed. But innocent life is snuffed out everyday in Iraq by Saddam. Yes, this happens in other parts of the world where people has different colored skin and less oil. We have done nothing about that in the past. There is a lot of resistance to taking out the sovereign leader of another country. That is an issue I struggle with. But at the end of it all, this man is evil. I believe that. And finally, I think he needs to be stopped.

                          It is not a question of how many lives it is worth. I am scared for our troops and the Iraqi people. I pray for them all. I pray for us all. I don't think that those of you who are against the war are misguided, stupid. But I think accepting evil in our midst allows it to grow. We might not choose to do something about it all the time, but we are choosing to something about it this time. It is terrible, but it is the right thing to do, IMO.
                          See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                          Comment


                          • Betsy, just curious: why isn't it possible for your "Hollywierds" to be equally as well read and knowledgeable as anyone else, including you?

                            Your post about all the rights we have long fought for contradicts itself when you seem to not want to grant these same rights to the celebrities. They are also citizens of this country, and agree or disagree, they have as much right to voice their opinion as you do.

                            Few people who think independantly will be swayed by someone's opinion just because they are in the public eye. And those that are? So what? We are all influenced by something, and if Susan Sarandon is someone's muse, so be it!

                            Charlie Daniels voiced his opinion, and you think he's terrific. Why, because he happens to agree with you? How is he different than the rest?

                            Laurie
                            Laurie

                            Comment


                            • Oh YEs they DO have the right! I too have the right to expose them for what they are! PAID PRETENDERS. They might be the next Albert Einstein but when they make ugly disparaging comments about the country that sponsors and supporsts their obscene wealth, then they ought to consider making a change of alliegence. Where else but in America could these people even be GIVEN A PLATFORM to speak MUCH less even be taken with a grain of salt as far as credibility!!!??? I prefer to trust MY information from those who are educated and informed IN THE AREA under discussion..When attornies start writting texts on Eco science (and being given credibility) it is time for me to write a text book on brain surgery. Hey, what a country!

                              Betsy
                              www.threewindsfarmny.com

                              Lead, follow, or get out of the way...
                              The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                              Comment


                              • Well said, RUSTI!!!!
                                Unfortunately it seems we're going to war, regardless.
                                So now we must support our troops whether we believe in the war or not...
                                http://www.halfpassfarmva.com

                                Comment


                                • Betsy, you failed to answer my question about Charlie Daniels.

                                  And please provide me with your sources that all the celebrities are paid to espouse their politics. Seems to me their studios would pay them to keep quiet...I would enjoy reading your sources.

                                  Just can't tolerate sweeping generalizations...

                                  Laurie
                                  Laurie

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SimpsoMatt:
                                    How many innocent Iraqi civilian lives are you willing to sacrifice to remove Saddam from power? Would you be willing to sacrifice the same number of US civilians? or even half that number? If not, does that mean Americans are worth more than Iraqis?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    I know LITTLE about the general views of Iraquis, but my sense was that they value life differently than we do. That is to say, am I wrong in thinking that a fair number of people in Iraq view losing their lives in battle as a sacrifice?

                                    My sense is that that sort of view is not widespread among Americans. So, it seems that we would have to do a lot more killing to resolve a conflict over there than we would over here. Not that our lives are worth MORE than the lives of Iraquis, but, rather, we are less willing to use our lives as bargaining tools.

                                    Phrased differently, if a powerful nation were standing at our door demanding that we behave reasonably or get whomped in war (such as the US is standing at Iraq's door), we'd be more willing to look at the peaceful option, I would think.

                                    Please correct me if I am making points that are factually inaccurate. I will admit that this is not my area (hence Bush never asked me to be his Secretary of Defense ).

                                    Comment


                                    • Flashy Grey asked:June: what did your family do in Uganda? Were you a humanitarian worker, or a missionary? Were you near Entebbe? Wasn't it Benjamin Netanyahu's brother who led (and was killed) in the raid on Entebbe?

                                      Flashy Grey, this is truly a sidebar, email me at my private profile email. Basic nuts and bolts, I paid my way over by selling a yearling who Rodney Jenkins wound up with, to go over and see if I wished to pursue my area of undergrad study on a graduate level. Did all those shots, experienced being stuck on a tarmac at JFK during a hijacking, all backpacks were lost in Frankfurt, arrived in Nairobi to soldiers with AK-47s wandering about, got sent to the wrong place in Homa Bay, where a Tanzanian refugee (yes there were many refugees, not only from Uganda), about 14, stole my passport and lost his life for it, despite my actions which got me jailed briefly; got evacuated yadi yadi and then got sent to the Nyanza Node to a village named Rongo where I taught and cared for refugees. When I returned, I wrote and completed an honors thesis on Man-Land Relationships in Eastern Kenya (spent time also after the first evacuation in the Tana River Basin)for Boston University. The experience altered me very much. Back to the topic of conversation. June
                                      \"The world\'s greatest achievements often happen on the edge of chaos\"

                                      Comment


                                      • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:

                                        Just can't tolerate sweeping generalizations...

                                        Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        And yet, deep in your heart of hearts, you know you are spitting into a forest fire, right?

                                        "Speak yer mind. But ride a fast horse"
                                        Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumphigh83:
                                          Where else but in America could these people even be GIVEN A PLATFORM to speak MUCH less even be taken with a grain of salt as far as credibility!!!???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                                          Ummm, Canada, England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Austrailia, New Zealand, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, The Netherlands, Iceland, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Germany, Italy, Greece, Spain, Mexico, Bermuda ....

                                          Yes, the U.S.A. is a wonderful country and a great democracy, and our right of free speech is a cherished asset that we have prized for over 225 years and I hope will continue to prize forever. The Founding Fathers and those men and women who followed them led the way. But, thankfully, we aren't the only free speech- and freedom-loving democracy in the world.

                                          [This message was edited by Portia on Mar. 19, 2003 at 12:22 PM.]
                                          "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry

                                          Comment

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