President Bush Issues 48 Hr. Ultimatum....Please Pray For Our Soldiers

[libgrrl]

Remind me not to hire Charlie Daniels as Secretary of State when I become president.

[Midge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sallylou: we are not alone we have about 29 countries backing us and sending troops (including France and Germany). .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only Britian and Australia are sending troops.

****
Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

[Ms. Anthrope]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by libgrrl:
Remind me not to hire Charlie Daniels as Secretary of State when I become president. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what would you do in this situation?

Just because I have a short attention span doesn't mean I

[lauriep]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sallylou:
Maybe we should just aggree that those who think this is a just cause and those who don't will never aggree. Thank God 72% of Americans back OUR President. We will see what we discover in Iraq...France, Germany and others are changing their tune, we are not alone we have about 29 countries backing us and sending troops (including France and Germany). They obviously know we will find WMD and that Iraq is a REAL threat to US. Should we really wait for them to attack US (again). After 9/11 many blamed the government for not "protecting" us, now we hear from some we can not attack "first", some people are just never going to be happy and would rather trust Saddam than their own government.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, really? Polls can be skewed to reflect whatever the pollsters want them to show. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that figure.

29 countries offer support, from sending troops (us, GB and Australia, only) to a hearty "We're with you!" There are alledgedly about 15 more who support us, but don't want it known that they support us. So, who's to say. France and Germany are NOT among those nations. France has now graciously said that IF we are attacked with chemical/biological weapons, then they'll come on board. Big whoop.

As far as trusting a man that I did not vote for implicitly, completely suspending any belief that there may be some alternative motives here, it's just not going to happen. I cannot accept that.

And for the person who posted (canterlope?) that the reason Powell couldn't make his case to the UN was because we couldn't show all of our intelligence, I don't buy that either. In order to have full support of everything we want to do, ALL we had to do was show something, anything, resembling a smoking gun. Do you really believe that IF we had this information that it couldn't be trusted with the top diplomats in the world on the Security Council? If just these few had been convinced, they could/would have come out and said "yup, he sure does have 'em and he needs to go now. Rally 'round the flag, boys!" Or, the information could have been given to the weapons inspectors to go directly to to confirm. Who cares if they move them subsequently? If we go in and take over the country, we'll find them eventually. But that didn't happen either. So, I just don't buy that they EVER had the proof to begin with.

Sure I think SH has these weapons. He's just threatened us with them. But did Bush prove his case for war. Not in my book.

But I also admit this may be the only way, in the end. I just think that his diplomatic measures suck.

Laurie

[This message was edited by lauriep on Mar. 19, 2003 at 09:13 AM.]

[Duffy]

Diplomacy only works if all sides want it to work. There was no way diplomacy was going to work, in this case. I am not saying that all sides are blameless, and I do think there are multi-sides here - not just two, if only because politics and money come into play...

"I can justify anything!"

[Duffy]

One of the recent deployment planes was delayed...Because the flight crew did not have chemical gear to wear. This is very scary and I do hate it.

"I can justify anything!"

[June]

I have been really hesitant to open my mouth on this subject. Growing up, Dad would let me read his letters occasionally. Doug MacGarther, after letting Dad know he got the book Dad sent him, wrote this postscript, "I pray your sons never know the horrors of war." It always stayed in me. In '77, I worked on the Kenya/Uganda border (the summer of Entebbe and the discovery of Marlburg virus in the Kenya Highlands...my poor parents). Dealt with refugees from Uganda. War is horror. I don't pretend to know any answer, but I can say that I will be praying so very hard for servicemen and servicewoman, their families, for Iraqi women and their families and I will also pray that we won't have a "domino effect" in the Mid East. I think I won't possess ever, the information out there that guided the decisions made. NYT or NPR or Foreign Press is valuable reading but perhaps not for analysis. Maybe for understanding what shapes opinion. And polls remind me of the phrase, "Figures don't lie , but liars sure figure." So I would take any poll with a grain of salt. Polls phrase their questions so very carefully...not to be a Pollyanna, can the idea of concern, worry, and caring for all involved parties lead us to prayer for their safety, and for those not comfortable with the concept of prayer, holding good thoughts for all, which means of course, us, too?
gently, June

[lilblackhorse]

(psst June, it's MacArthur, or Mc)...


As far as Charlie Daniels? In the words of Dr.Evil, "yeah, right".

72% of Americans support the president in attacking Iraq? Where did this number come from? I am truly curious, I have not heard numbers, and really don't think that sounds right. Do you have a source of the poll and who took it and when?

Elippses Users Clique........
Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group

[buryinghill1]

For those of us who have friends or family stationed in the middle east, here are some good ideas to put in care packages:
(nothing that melts! no chocolate!)
your local daily paper, chap stick with very high SPF #, baby wipes/face wipes, hand cream (unscented for the guys),hard candy,gum,
letters from the neighbors (even a card),
photos, small USA flag and/or state flag,
prepaid phone cards,a list of email addresses (for those who email), small lightweight packets of chips (pringles), granola bars, oreo cookies, bubble gum, disolvable breath strips, breath mints, magazines, and of course love from home.
My friends don't want to be over there, but I support them and send them my love.

[Duffy]

Ok, I admit it. I posted something idiotic earlier!!

Dipolomacy works sometimes BECAUSE of politics and money. (I stand by the first part of the post. )

I can't believe I'm posting this from one of my client's offices. I'm not billing her for this time. Ok, I DO believe it! I fretted all the way here about that stupid post - in typical Duffyesque fashion.

"I can justify anything!"

[Duffy]

Excellent ideas ynh!

When my honey's son was in Afghanistan less than a year ago, he baked toll house cookies to ship over there. Unfortunately, he left them cooling on the kitchen table and left to run an errand.... His big old yellow lab ate pretty much all of them. Needless to say, they both suffered for the next day or so!

He's planning on trying again, but will protect those assets better this time.

"I can justify anything!"

[Eomer]

The problem is there is no reasonable way to talk about war. War is devoid of reason, it has it's own law, morals and values all of which are incomprehensible in the context of polite society.

When our young men and women step of thier airplane they leave what normal people consider sanity behind and walk into a compassionless world where they will need to kill or be killed. No quater given or taken, un-relenting fatigue, heat, cold, wet, dry ... misery as a companion. There has to be a better way. I admire those of you that believe this is a war of principal and honor. But, I'm dumfounded that in the next sentence you can write off thousands "innocent's", the end justifies the means. Is one life worth whatever it is we think we're accomplishing with this madman. It is? What if that life is yours? Fine, you'll die for the cause. What if that life is the person most dear to you in the world. Is Sadam worth that? Is anyone or anything?

When are we going to grow up? When do we settle our differences ... with maturity. The world needs to move beyond war as a means to our ends. Which of you mothers would tolerate you childeren fighting each other? How is war different, other than the consequences are much more permanent. When I was young fighting WAS tollerated, even expected (we had boxing in gym class). Thank goodness we've grown beyond that. It's time society grows beyond war.

"The fool on the hill"

[June]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lilblackhorse:
(psst June, it's MacArthur, or Mc)...


Ohh... I knew it, I knew it, I knew it! I looked at the spelling, fiddled with it twice, and then took my best shot. My only excuse is I never wrote the man, my father did. I will now go look it up and thanks for the nudge with Aunt Ester's purse ! very kind regards, June!

[Portia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maggymay:
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/ These guys are _ staying in Iraq_ They need money and good thoughts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks, MaggyMay, forthe reminder to make my contribution to MSF. (My late father was a doctor, so I have a special place in my heart for MSF.)

[DMK]

Actually diplomacy works when diplomats are committed to finding common ground, can whittle away at respective differences with an infinite amount of patience and logic, resort to creative, yet subtle blackmail and stroke the hell out of any ego that calls for immediate stroking. Oh yea, and eliminating bathroom breaks in moments of crucial negotiation is not necessarily frowned upon...

If money or politics solved it, we would have Hollywood on top of it, slapped it into a 30 second TV spot with awe inspiring fade outs and touching B&W scenes, and be the undisputed kings of it.

And I don't disagree that it takes two to tango, but it is pretty well known that there was a split on this issue within the adminstration (not along party lines) that pretty much hamstrung the diplomatic effort. And since ultimately it is OUR men and woman marching into war and putting their life on the line, I would argue WE had the greater burden to make it work. Apparently Colin Powell thought so too, as he was the one who pushed (and pushed and pushed) for a much earlier start to the diplomatic effort. I'm of a mind that he was a wee bit closer to the repercussions of a diplomatic failure than Rumsfeld or Rice. And maybe nothing would be different, but at least we would know we really gave it our best.

"Speak yer mind. But ride a fast horse"

[Miss Perfect]

For the person who asked about the poll information - it was widely reported on internet news sites yesterday. Here's a quote from MSNBC:

NBC NEWS

"March 18 — Sixty-five percent of Americans believe the United States should take military action against Iraq, but a majority also believes a war will increase the threat of terrorism inside the United States, according to an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll released Tuesday....

THE 65 PERCENT supporting action against Iraq compares with a previous high of 60 percent last month and in October 2002.
Thirty percent were opposed to action in the latest survey, conducted Monday after President Bush gave Iraqi President Saddam Hussein 48 hours to leave Iraq. That’s about average for the series of polls taken since April 2002, but the percentage of those “not sure” hit a low of 5 percent.
Tim Russert, NBC’s Washington bureau chief and host of “Meet the Press,” said the Bush administration believes support could reach 70 percent after the president addresses the nation in the event of war.
Among Republicans polled, 88 percent back war, Russert noted, but more surprisingly a majority of Democrats — 49 percent to 43 percent — also support the president’s strategy.

Asked if the United States should take more time to try to resolve the conflict diplomatically, 61 percent favored military action now. Thirty-three percent favored more diplomacy."
The telephone survey of 506 American adults was conducted by Hart/Teeter and has a margin of error of 4.4 percentage points.

[June]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eomer:
The problem is there is no reasonable way to talk about war. War is devoid of reason, it has it's own law, morals and values all of which are incomprehensible in the context of polite society.

When our young men and women step of thier airplane the leave sanity behind and walk into a compassionless world where they will need to kill or be killed. No quater given or taken, un-relenting fatigue, heat, cold, wet, dry ... misery as a companion. There has to be a better way. I admire those of you that believe this is a war of principal and honor. But, I'm dumfounded that in the next sentence you can write off thousands "innocent's", the end justifies the means. Is one life worth whatever it is we think we're accomplishing with this madman. It is? What if that life is yours? Fine, you'll die for the cause. What if that life is the person most dear to you in the world. Is Sadam worth that? Is anyone or anything?

When are we going to grow up? When do we settle our differences ... with maturity. The world needs to move beyond war as a means to our ends. Which of you mothers would tolerate you childeren fighting each other? How is war different, other than the consequences are much more permanent. When I was young fighting WAS tollerated, even expected (we had boxing in gym class). Thank goodness we've grown beyond that. It's time society grows beyond war.

"The fool on the hill"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't tolerate fighting between the two scholars; I pre-empted that years ago, sharing the thought with them after a controversy that when I died, they would only have each other to soften the upsets of life and they didn't have a choice in the matter, get along, period. Must be that Catholic guilt thing but also common sense. We are Quakers now, my children get hazed in school big time because of our faith, Mary less so than Jim. And I am still wondering how I can accept the idea that I would let someone shoot me, but if they tried to do that to my scholars, I would shoot them first &lt;sigh&gt;, if it was in my power to do so. And I wonder if we will ever find a way to change that. I don't have quick answers. I think I am not a good Quaker. But I am trying to be a good mother. They ought to be the same, but for me, I fail the Faith when it comes to scholars. I can only hope some higher power will be tolerant, but maybe I don't deserve that. All I know is that I will do my best to protect family, not breach personal conscience, and seek non-conflict. From those three strategies, I do have an operational plan. And the only comfort realized is my contentment to be judged. Most troubling to me in today's news is that I am not sure what circumstances would exist, save imminent peril, that would ever provoke me to take the first shot...pre-emptive actions.
June

[Flashy Gray]

You are an amazing bunch!

To all the BBers who both agree with the objective of ridding the region of Saddam Hussein, and to all the BBers who don't: reading the posts on this thread makes me proud of everyone here, and the life experiences that have shaped your viewpoints on this.

I work in politics, and we "political hacks" have the unfortunate and arrogant habit of assuming that "Joe Six-Pack" American is not capable of/does not care to educate themselves about the pressing issues of the day. How small of anyone to ever think that way; the American people are so blessed to enjoy our freedoms, especially our freedom to speak our minds!

I find the vigorous and intelligent debate on this thread to be very refreshing. Someone earlier posted that "all of the anger" on this thread was disturbing to them. I say that it's great, and it's in the best tradition of American liberty! Passionate political debate is not a negative thing!

Duffy, Eomer, June, Portia, canterlope and many others have made excellent points on both sides.

YNH: great suggestions. I have no immediate family serving currently; can us non-military folk put care packages together for any soldiers and ensure they'll get through and be used? Maybe through the USO?

Maybe we need to do a BB care package drive for the troops - maybe the calvary guys (I know they don't have real horses anymore)?

June: what did your family do in Uganda? Were you a humanitarian worker, or a missionary? Were you near Entebbe? Wasn't it Benjamin Netanyahu's brother who led (and was killed) in the raid on Entebbe?

[lauriep]

Well said, DMK.

What has made me always question the sincerity of the diplomatic attempts is that from the VERY FIRST utterances about Saddam from this administration, the tag line was "we'll use force and we'll go it alone, if necessary." (or some reasonable facsimile thereof1)

This didn't come about after months of negotiation, or failures of the inspectors this time around. It was the very first salvo.

And for those who hold up the 12 years of non-compliance as the reason we are doing what we're doing: those 12 years didn't have the added push of our troops massed outside Iraq. Perhaps if we had shown our force, and then tried a little harder to prove our case (show the damn intelligence, if we had it), ther would be a different outcome.

Perhaps not, but I don't think we can truthfully say we gave it our all first.

Damn, I love a good discussion!

As for the poll, I saw the figure, but ya just never know who the pollees are, do you? I just refuse to give much credence to something that is unverifiable.

Laurie

[buryinghill1]

Oops I forgot the other stuff I sent that was a big hit...
Playing Cards, Travel-size games, Cracker Jacks, Trail Mix, Twizzlers, Chicken Noodle Soup mix, Bazooka, Life Savers, Planters Peanuts, SunMaid Raisins, and Peanut Brittle. A plastic travel coffee mug (from a local java house is awesome). Drawings from the kids. A CD or tape or video from the kids or family (find out which machine your serviceman/woman may use).
Make sure you put to and from info inside the box as well. That is very important!
My package took one month to get to [base in middle east].