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President Bush Issues 48 Hr. Ultimatum....Please Pray For Our Soldiers

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  • Anyone who thinks Bechtel was a good choice for rebuilding Iraq clearly hasn't lived therough the Boston "Big Dig"....

    Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

    Comment


    • Wow, Taryn. How impressive.

      "I can justify anything!"
      \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

      Comment


      • "Warmongers".
        [i]\"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be wo

        Comment


        • Aww Duffy. You know I have nothing but love for you. It's just my nature.

          Julie..... war + pornography = warnography.

          www.foalcams.com
          "Wherever man has left his footprint in the long ascent from barbarism to civilization, we will find the hoofprint of the horse beside it." ~John Moore

          Comment


          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
            Americans could definitely use some education in manners. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            Bgoose, you are too funny, and for that you are loved

            I also have to say, the constant discussion of the "private Topic" and it's obvious superiority reeks of elementary school play grounds and unintelligible bullies. Every time I think about posting on this thread I tell myself having &lt;names omitted to protect the cranky and insecure&gt; or someone else throw my education or opinion in my face, instead of having partners in debate that will actually let down their blinders and listen to an opposing view is more frustrating than it's worth.

            I don't think anyone called anyone stupid, I was raised differently than that. But if you would like to continue to take care of that for me, I certainly wont stop you.

            I am not a liberal, I am not a democrat, I'm really just someone who pays attention to all sides of all stories. I'm also someone who refuses to get so unattractively angry at people I've never met over issues I realize there is no point in discussing. I think any professional (of any capacity) on this board might want to think about the impression given to the unsuspecting public. Debate and differences are a good thing. Close mindedness and belligerence are not smiled upon on many circles that I know of…except perhaps a private topic

            --- And how did you feel about being denied these Hungry Hippos?
            ------------------------------
            Life Goes On

            Comment


            • While cleaning a soiled cow pen at the clinic today I found myself thinking of this discussion and how it related exactly to the nasty task at hand.

              I think the majority agrees that Saddam is a pile of cow poop, just like those filthy piles I was taking out of the pen with the power washer. Some folk think the enema given to *Saddam Bull* to produce the pile is about oil, “W”, the US military and other stuff. Other folk think the enema is about the USA stopping a man who harbors, supports and supplies terrorist and an ineffective UN. To each, his own though I am squarely in the second camp. Time and discovery will provide the whole truth and until then, the bottom line is this, *Saddam* stinks and as his piles hit the ground they splatter an awful mist onto everything near them causing contamination, smell and unrest.

              I figure the framework offered above is even simpler than the whole “good verses evil” one discussed many pages ago but this one may draw some of us closer to an agreement, of sorts.

              SLW

              Comment


              • SLW, what a delightful and accurate comparison you've drawn!!

                Comment


                • Glad it works Duramax!!

                  On another note, if I was milking cows or raising beef cattle for a living there ain't no way in hell milk would sell for $2.50 a gallon or ground beef for $1.49 a pound. Cows are a messy, onrey critter to work around! A bull "cow kicked" in the chute today squarely nailing the attending vet just below his rib!!! That bull was lucky I was assisting the vet at the time and didn't have my Super Heavy Duty power washer hooked up or I would have blown his black hide to the Gulf of Mexico!!

                  SLW

                  Comment


                  • Excellent, SLW. Simple enough for even me to understand.

                    What I want to know, and maybe you can answer this, or maybe not (time will tell), but I would like to know why it is that when one "side" sticks to their guns, and the other "side" also sticks to their guns, that means one is close minded and belligerent? I know several folks from one "side" who have listened and even slightly agreed with statements from the other "side", yet they are still considered this. Is this because one "side" did not change completely to the other "side"? I have yet to see anyone from a particular "side" agree with anything except that Saddam was "bad" (but not "evil"), and the definition was argued as ambiguous. Why must one "side" change their minds in order to be open minded? One "side" seems to constantly throw those terms at the other, while the other "side" says the others are elitists. Anyone care to explain this?

                    We can continue to throw tomatoes at one another forever on these issues. I agree with SLW, time will tell the truth.

                    The private topic was created so that those of us who are of like mind on this issue could discuss findings without being made to feel like we did not think through all possible conspiracy theories before placing our trust in GWB. Many times I have been offended here on this thread because of the manner in which people from one "side" refused to see anything but conspiracies, and how they continually implied (with veiled insults and a superior attitude) that I (and others) had no basis for my opinion because I (we) could not possibly know what I (we) was (were) talking about. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>From the Private Topic:
                    In appreciation, I created this topic as a little oasis far away from the LEFT, where you can say anything you might have left unsaid so as not to offend anyone. Where you won't have to defend yourself over every word, or hear your President referred to as a moron. At least here, you're amongst friends.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, feel free to create your own PT, if you wish. That is your right, as provided by our wonderful sponsor, COTH.

                    ********
                    I'm just the mom.

                    Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

                    Comment


                    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taryn:
                      On a funny aside, my husband is currently working as an independent contractor for Bechtel. So, I asked him if he would go to Iraq to rebuild their land-line/wireless system. He said "sure". I hope that makes all the 'warnographers' happy to hear that yes, indeed Radar O'Reilly would go to Iraq.

                      But not for less than $700 a day PLUS per diem.
                      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                      I am offended by the implication that I, a proud supporter of our efforts in Iraq and a mother of two teenagers, have a connection with pornography. Thank you Taryn for your tact and manners.

                      And, why would anyone be happy that your wonderful spouse would go to Iraq and profit off the lives given by our soldiers who stood behind their oath to defend our country?

                      ********
                      I'm just the mom.

                      Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

                      Comment


                      • dcm, I think both "sides" are equally guilty of the same thing you're complaining about.

                        Rational people, from the beginning of time, have looked at the same set of facts (for lack of a better word, because "facts" often change -- just look at how everyone once thought the world was flat) and come to different conclusions.

                        One is not more right (or wrong) than the other, although those on the opposite side may not see it that way. And neither "side" is going to sway the other by hurling invective and slogans and insults.

                        A well-thought-out, rationally expressed opinion may never sway anyone to your argument. But it's a sure bet that assigning labels, knee-jerk reactionism and parroting things one has heard without bothering to do one's own research is not going to make anyone see anything other than red.

                        And again, that goes for anyone on any side of any debate.

                        ***Dear Sam: All I really want for Mother's Day is FLYING LEAD CHANGES!!***
                        Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

                        Comment


                        • Beezer - I agree. It just saddens me to see all these people who are here because of our affinity for horses, arguing so about politics, of all things.

                          I can't seem to stay away, though. I am pretty set in my support for what we have done. We could have been a bit more diplomatic, but I don't see where France, et al, would have budged on their stand. I truely believe our course of action was set with 9-11, regardless of all the conspiracy theories set forth here. Sierra Leone would not have been the starting place because no Africans terrorists had a hand in the 9-11 attacks. Besides, the UN is already there and war crimes tribunals are underway. The terrorists were all Middle Eastern, from varying countries. We found Bin Ladin, a Saudi, in the caves of Afganistan (but missed him by mere minutes). Proof of Saddam's connections to terrorists and WMD are beginning to surface.

                          Yes, there are some valid arguments from those that oppose this action we have taken. But we have already taken the action. The only course left is to speak with their votes in 2004.

                          Oh well. There is more to life than this thread.

                          PS - I guess the Easter Bunny forgot your lead changes. Sorry about that. Hopefully for Mothers' Day. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

                          ********
                          I'm just the mom.

                          Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

                          Comment


                          • Oh Christ dcm, it was a joke. I'm not going to get into it again with you, it's pretty much a lost cause. You're right and I'm wrong.



                            www.foalcams.com
                            "Wherever man has left his footprint in the long ascent from barbarism to civilization, we will find the hoofprint of the horse beside it." ~John Moore

                            Comment


                            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taryn:
                              Oh Christ dcm, it was a joke. I'm not going to get into it again with you, it's pretty much a lost cause. You're right and I'm wrong.



                              http://www.foalcams.com
                              <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              I guess we just rub the wrong way, Taryn. It's not right or wrong. I just don't see your humor. Nothing funny about pornography or sworn oaths.

                              ********
                              I'm just the mom.

                              Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

                              Comment


                              • BTW, the other "side" has created their own PT as well. They just haven't talked about it here.

                                On another aside, some jokes are just plain in bad taste and are humourless. Discussing/flaunting/bragging about/whatever how much one's husband is going to make on a daily basis after our soldiers have lost lives is...Well, you fill in your own descriptive word.

                                There is a long and difficult journey ahead of the world. I say, let's get on with it. It will take even more than our soldiers' engineers and than those independent contractors' help to do it. (I do not have a problem with independent contractors making good money over there. I just have a problem with the presentation of it...)

                                "I can justify anything!"
                                \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                                Comment


                                • I for one have no interest in surrounding myself with nothing but like-minded people. How boring is that? To have differing opinions and discuss them is great fun, but it requires people to have some respect and the ability to listen to the other side(s). And it requires enough confidence to not be constantly offended or assume every differing opinion is some kind of attack. Some humour goes a long way as well!!

                                  I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf
                                  The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

                                  Comment


                                  • Touche, bgoosewood!

                                    Laurie
                                    Laurie

                                    Comment


                                    • I know there are those of you who use PT's to discuss the fact that those of "us" will never "get it".....however, I truly wonder if we were not dependant on Middle East Oil, actually oil in general, if we wouldn't be far better off. My guess is that we would care far less about what was going on in hte ME-kindof like we have ignored the other "evil doers" who happen to live in far less prosperous areas.

                                      I read this today-I realize the contract thing was brought up at the beginning of this thread-I wish subsequent presidents had followed Carter's suit in understanding it is dependance on oil that could set us free and reduce emissions. Oh yeah, we're talking about Bush. I saw ol' Colin talking for Earth Day yesterday saying what a great environmentalist GW is--let's see, drilling in the Anwar, panning the Kyoto Summit, backing off all endangered species acts......hmmmmmm.


                                      The Empire Needs New Clothes
                                      By Thom Hartmann, Article Dated 3/20/2003

                                      It's easy to vilify George W. Bush as a cynical warmonger, anxious to
                                      attack Iraq to repay the oil companies that funded his election campaigns.
                                      But to do so is to make a dangerous and fundamental error, and such a myopic
                                      view of the Bush administration's policies puts America's future at risk.

                                      The reality is that the current administration has a clear and specific
                                      vision for the future of America and the world, and they believe it's a
                                      positive vision. In order to put forward an alternative vision, it's
                                      essential to first understand the vision of America held by the New Right.

                                      The core of the neoconservative vision was first articulated on June 3,
                                      1997, in the Statement of Principles put forth by the Project For The New
                                      American Century. Signed by Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Bill Bennett, Jeb
                                      Bush, Gary Bauer, Elliott Abrams, Paul Wolfowitz, Vin Weber, Steve Forbes
                                      and others from the Reagan/Bush administration, it clearly stated that "the
                                      history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of
                                      American leadership."

                                      Frankly acknowledging that America is a small portion of the world's
                                      population but uses a large percentage of the world's oil and other natural
                                      resources, Poppy Bush is famous for having said, "The American lifestyle is
                                      not negotiable."

                                      McMansions for two-person families, a transportation infrastructure
                                      based on 6,000-pound SUVs carrying single individuals, cheap Chinese goods
                                      atWal-Mart and cheap Mexican food in the supermarket - all of this is not
                                      anything America intends to give up. We're king of the hill, and we intend
                                      to stay that way, even if it means going to war to keep it.

                                      At the core of this is oil. When the administration's people say
                                      American involvement in Iraq is "not about oil," they're often responding to
                                      charges that they're only going after profits for American oil companies.
                                      They speak truth, in that context, when they say the war isn't about
                                      revenues from oil - the profits will only be a desirable side-effect. What the war is
                                      really about is the survival of the American lifestyle, which, in their
                                      world-view, is both non-negotiable and based almost entirely
                                      on access to cheap oil.

                                      The same year Cheney, et al, wrote their papers on The New American
                                      Century, I wrote a book about the coming end of American peace and
                                      prosperity because of our dependence on a dwindling supply of oil. "Since the discovery
                                      of oil in Titusville, PA, where the world's first oil well as drilled in
                                      1859," I wrote in The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight, "humans have extracted
                                      742 billion barrels of oil from the Earth. Currently, world oil reserves are
                                      estimated at about 1,000 billion barrels, which will last (according to the
                                      most optimistic estimates of the oil industry) 'for almost 45 years at
                                      current rates of consumption.'"

                                      But that doesn't mean that we'll suck on the straw for 45 years and
                                      then it'll suddenly stop. When about half the oil has been removed from an u
                                      nderground oil field, it starts to get much harder (and thus more expensive)
                                      to extract the remaining half. The last third to quarter can be
                                      excruciatingly expensive to extract - so much so that wells these days that
                                      have hit that point are usually just capped because it costs more to extract
                                      the oil than it can be sold for, or it's more profitable to ship oil
                                      in from the Middle East, even after accounting for the cost of shipping.

                                      The halfway point of an oil field is referred to as "The Hubbert Peak,"
                                      after scientist M. King Hubbert, who first pointed this out in 1956 and
                                      projected 1970 as the year for the Hubbert Peak of US oil supplies. Hubbert
                                      was off by four years - 1974 saw the initial decline in US oil production
                                      and the consequent rise in price. In 1975, Hubbert, who is now deceased,
                                      projected 2000 for a worldwide Hubbert Peak. Once that point had been hit,
                                      he and other experts suggested, the world could expect economy-destabilizing
                                      spikes in the price of oil, and wars to begin over control of this vital
                                      resource.

                                      Most of the world has now been digitally "X-rayed" using satellites,
                                      seismic data, and computers, in the process of locating 41,000 oil fields.
                                      Over 641,000 exploratory wells have been drilled, and virtually all yields
                                      which show any promise are well-known and factored into the one-trillion
                                      barrel estimate the oil industry uses for world oil reserves. And of
                                      that 1 trillion barrels, Saudi Arabia has about 259 billion barrels and Iraq
                                      is estimated by the US Government to have 432 billion barrels, although at
                                      the moment only about 112 billion barrels have been tapped. The rest, virgin
                                      oil, can be pumped out for as little as $1.50 a barrel, making Iraqi oil not
                                      only the most abundant in the world, but the most profitable. This at a
                                      time when virtually all American oil field except the Alaska North Slope) have
                                      dwindled past the Hubbert Peak into $5 to $25 per barrel pumping costs.

                                      Thus, we see that our "lifestyle" - our ability to maintain our
                                      auto-based transportation systems, our demand for big, warm houses, and our
                                      appetite for a wide variety of cheap foods and consumer goods - is currently
                                      based on access to cheap oil. If we assume that the American people won't
                                      tolerate a change in that lifestyle, then we can extrapolate that our very
                                      security as a stable democracy is dependent on cheap oil.

                                      Viewed in this context, the rush to seize control of the Middle East -
                                      where about a third of the planet's oil is located - makes perfect sense.
                                      It's a noble endeavor, in that view, maintaining the strength and vitality
                                      of the American Empire.

                                      Of course, there are a few cracks in this vision. In order to have such
                                      a new American century, we must be willing to foul our waters and air with
                                      the byproducts of oil combustion and oil-fired power plants, and tolerate
                                      the explosions in cancer they bring. We must be willing to gamble that raising
                                      CO2 levels won't destabilize the atmosphere and tip us into a new ice age by
                                      shutting down the Great Conveyor Belt warm-water currents in the Atlantic.
                                      We must be willing to hold the rest of the world off at the point of a bayonet,
                                      and to take on the England/Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine type of
                                      terrorism that inevitably comes when people decide to assert nationalism and
                                      confront empire.

                                      And, perhaps most distressing, the third George to be President of the
                                      United States must be willing to clamp down on his own dissident citizens
                                      the same way that King George III of England did in 1776. These are the
                                      requirements of empire.

                                      The last American statesman to put forth a different vision was
                                      President Jimmy Carter, who candidly pointed out to the American people that
                                      oil was a dwindling domestic resource. Carter said that we mustn't find
                                      ourselves in a position of having to fight wars to seize other people's oil,
                                      and that a decade or two of transition to renewable energy sources would
                                      ensure the stability and future of America without destabilizing the rest of
                                      the world. It would even lead to a cleaner environment and a better quality of
                                      life. Carter put in place energy tax credits and incentives that birthed an
                                      exploding new industry based on building solar-heated homes,
                                      windmill-powered communities, and the development of fuel alternatives to petroleum.

                                      Ronald Reagan's first official act of office was to remove Carter's
                                      solar panels from the roof of the White House. He then repealed Carter's tax
                                      incentives for renewable energy and killed off an entire industry. No
                                      president since then has had the courage or vision to face the hard reality that
                                      Carter shared with us.

                                      And so now we discover these oddities. Osama bin Laden, for example,
                                      explicitly said that he had attacked the US because we had troops stationed
                                      on the holy soil of his homeland - a position not that different from
                                      Northern Irish, Palestinian, Tamil, and Kashmiri terrorists. And our troops
                                      are there to protect our access to Saudi oil, a dependence legacy we
                                      inherited from Reagan's rejection of Carter's initiatives.

                                      If we are to hold a vision of America that doesn't depend on foreign
                                      sources of oil and doesn't require the enormous expenditures of
                                      money and blood to project and protect empire, simply saying "stop the war"
                                      isn't enough. We must clearly articulate a vision of what America could be
                                      in a world in balance, a world at peace, and a world where the planet's vital
                                      natural resources are protected and renewed. This is the ultimate family
                                      value, the highest patriotism, and the most desperately needed story to
                                      guide the next generation of Americans.

                                      As President John F. Kennedy said in his 1961 Inaugural Address,
                                      "All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be
                                      finished in the first 1,000 days, nor in the life of this Administration,
                                      nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin."

                                      -----------------------------------------------------

                                      Thom Hartmann is the author of over a dozen books, including "Unequal
                                      Protection" and "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight."

                                      www.thomhartmann.com.This article is copyrighted by Thom Hartmann and in
                                      multiple submission, but permission is granted for reprint in print, email,
                                      blog, or web media so long as this credit is attached.

                                      Elippses Users Clique........
                                      Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group
                                      Ellipses users clique ...
                                      TGFPT,HYOOTGP

                                      Comment


                                      • With the end of the active warfare, this thread has reached the end of its useful life and the end of the "national event" exception to the horse related rule.

                                        Prepare to say good-bye, folks. We'll give you time to have your final say, but fair warning, it's soon to be going ... going ... gone.
                                        "I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?" Dave Barry

                                        Comment


                                        • While we realized that this is far from horse related, I find it's a pity that it will be closed. Other than a few snippy folks, I think this has been a really good dialogue about matters.

                                          I guess the sad thing for me, is that after one month, we are supposed to see all that is rosy in Iraq-that the "end justifies the means" for going over there. The truth is that this is the beginning, and there are huge stirrings of resentment against us (the so called liberators) who want us gone, which leaves a huge power vacuum. And, just like the reports at the beginning of the war in Afghanistan, we always heard the news that "ohh, we think Osama is dead." Well, we keep getting that in Iraq too.

                                          I mean if the true reason for this war was regime change, then I still stand by my plan on page 2 or whatever that we should have sent in one sharpshooter. There would have been a helluva lot less dead americans and Iraqi citizens, and the amount of money WE are going to spend repairing their country could be better spent on repairing our OWN country, which in case no one noticed is falling apart (schools, roads, inner cities, etc). Same end, different means.

                                          Elippses Users Clique........
                                          Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group
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