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President Bush Issues 48 Hr. Ultimatum....Please Pray For Our Soldiers

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  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
    But you made a sweeping generalization condemning the entire Middle East based upon what their governments and terrorists are doing. That's like condemning all of South America because of the dicators who were in power, etc etc etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The majority of Middle East countries have no experience with freedom or democracy- that is a fact and not a sweeping generalization. Those countries have the "royal" minority ruling and a majority oppressed poverty population base. When and if a Middle class develops- with the opportunity to vote in leadership- we will see change. Looking at the Iraqi people tasting freedom for the first time in how many generations is awesome! Iraq could become the next Jordan or Turkey.

    Hope that explains my view better! I'm not suggesting the Middle East change their clothing, food, religion or recreation to suit "western" expectations but a little "western democratic freedom" could go a long way to making "John Doe" Middle Easterner routine life better.

    SLW

    Comment


    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
      SLW Actually Cleo is my Sister..do you have a problem with that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      Sheesh, guess I'm busted too.....I'm the third daughter of Laura and George Bush!

      Have a good one!

      SLW

      Comment


      • SLW, that 'splains it much better. Thank you for your clarification!

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
          Note that the article came from the British newspaper The Times, for what it's worth. It's a real newspaper but I don't know if it's tabloid-y.
          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
          This was a couple of pages back, but NO, The Times is NOT "tabloidy". It is the most authoritative and stuffy newspaper in Britain. AN article in The Times has at least the credibility of an article in The New York Times.

          Janet
          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
          Janet

          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

          Comment


          • Palisades, your original post to which I responded initially was indeed inflammatory to me. I should have responded as such:

            "First of all, I completely disagree with this war. I think that there MAY be valid reasons for intervention in Iraq, but I really can't believe that the Bush Administration has those at heart."

            I should have asked you: Isn't the freeing of a suffering people a valid reason? What do you think his intentions really are since you did not elaborate, nor clarify. There must be something more....right?

            "I don't care if you believe America is the greatest country in the world (which, btw, the UN rankings have never agreed with..."

            Was that a dig? or does it just sound like one.

            "Not to mention that a lot of his Christian "God supports us""

            At least this president has morals supported by his strong faith. Sounds like you have a problem with this. Just my observation.
            Am I incorrect?

            "..have the guts to stand up and say that no, the United States cannot flout world authority and do whatever it pleases."

            What are you really saying? Sounds like sour grapes. Why do you feel so impotent?

            "I am disgusted with Bush, and quite frankly, will be disgusted with your country as a whole if he is reelected."

            Sorry you feel this way. I'm afraid you might have to get used to it. He may indeed be re-elected.

            "I realize that not all of you support him, and I respect the opinions of those who do, but I'm going to lose a lot of faith in the American people if you can't see what kind of a road Bush is heading down."

            I'm not sure you really do respect our opinions. Are you calling us a bunch of losers for voting for someone WE think will do a good job? Please, could you explain how you really feel about us?

            "And while I do believe that we shouldn't sit by and watch human rights violations being perpetrated, a country has to first revolt and ask for our help, IMHO."

            Do you honestly believe the Iraci people had the slightest chance of revolting against that dictator? I think it's been proven (and not my opinion), THAT would never have happened.


            "Syria, North Korea, I don't think any of them threaten world security as much as America does right now."

            Could you please explain how the US threatens world security? I do not understand what you mean.

            Now, I think I have managed to be civil and non-inflammatory with this post. The above quotes irritated me at first, but maybe once you clarify,I will be better able to respect your opinions. Thank you for your response.

            Comment


            • You are correct, Eomer, BDU are just Battle Dress Uniforms.

              Actually the desert ones have their own name: DCU's or Desert Camoflauge Uniforms.

              "I can justify anything!"
              \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

              Comment


              • I want to apologize for my remarks the other day in which I said that our Military Leadership could take lessons from the Boy Scouts with regard to preperation and planning. I said this about the way the arhealogical and historic assets of Iraq were protected. This was a mean and wrong minded thing to say. I do think the ball was droped, I should have just said so.

                "The fool on the hill"
                \"The fool on the hill\"

                Comment


                • I have to jump in here and address some of these points:

                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlotTwist:
                  "First of all, I completely disagree with this war. I think that there MAY be valid reasons for intervention in Iraq, but I really can't believe that the Bush Administration has those at heart."

                  I should have asked you: Isn't the freeing of a suffering people a valid reason? What do you think his intentions really are since you did not elaborate, nor clarify. There must be something more....right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  then we have a LOT of wars to fight and frankly, I think we're going to forget this whole "suffering people" thing pretty fast. Too bad b/c I DO happen to think that is worth fighting for (just not unilaterally )

                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
                  "Not to mention that a lot of his Christian "God supports us""

                  At least this president has morals supported by his strong faith. Sounds like you have a problem with this. Just my observation.
                  Am I incorrect?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  OK, I have a problem with it a HUGE problem. I do NOT want ANY religious values being used in government. I don't care if they're Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Wiccan. Don't need 'em, don't wnat 'em. In my experience deeply religious people are the least tolerant, least compassionate, and least objective. They have privately decided to live by a set of rules that differ from our secular law which is their right, but I don't want them as judges or politicans unless they are proven capable of setting aside their choosen "moral" viewpoint when necessary.

                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "..have the guts to stand up and say that no, the United States cannot flout world authority and do whatever it pleases."

                  What are you really saying? Sounds like sour grapes. Why do you feel so impotent? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  So what you're implying here is that because Palisades is Canadian and they don't have a really big army she should just be quiet? I HOPE not.. but that is how it comes across.

                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "I realize that not all of you support him, and I respect the opinions of those who do, but I'm going to lose a lot of faith in the American people if you can't see what kind of a road Bush is heading down."

                  I'm not sure you really do respect our opinions. Are you calling us a bunch of losers for voting for someone WE think will do a good job? Please, could you explain how you really feel about us?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  You know; there are a lot of people in this country and I think that palisades was trying not to lump them all together. Why do you, Plot Twist, insist on lumping us all together and refusing to recognize that there are people with different opinions than yours, and that those opinions are equally valid?

                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "Syria, North Korea, I don't think any of them threaten world security as much as America does right now."

                  Could you please explain how the US threatens world security? I do not understand what you mean.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  I'll give you an example. India was talking last week about using the US pre-emptive strike idea to invade Pakistan b/c they have WMD and harbor terrorists. Oh, wait did I say invade? I meant start a nuclear war with. The whole "not striking first" thing has been pretty influential in preventing major wars since 1945.

                  Comment


                  • Well said, Eomer.

                    I will also say that I wish our people had protected the museums better. But, we were not there and do not know the exact circumstances, so I will not criticize their actions or lack thereof.

                    "I can justify anything!"
                    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                    Comment


                    • Very well said, maggymay.

                      -Albion

                      'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

                      Comment


                      • Why do you think we will be forgetting the "suffering people", maggymay?

                        "I can justify anything!"
                        \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                        Comment


                        • For you Canadians there is another opinion coming out of Canada by some of my friends. Here it is:

                          I guess you know we support the US in the Iraq war by the emails I forward. We are very disappointed to say the least that our Federal Gov’t. did not support the US at the UN, and then send troops etc.



                          However our Premier of Alberta has voiced that Alberta supports the US to the fullest, have been articles in our papers talking about separation etc.,



                          We have a lot of emails ridiculing our Gov’t on it’s stand at the UN and the lack of our support to the US. Our Gov’t has not kept up our armed forces as it should have.

                          "There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Sir Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965)

                          www.talloaksfarm.net
                          http://www.talloaksfarm.net ---"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts." --- Winston Churchill

                          Comment


                          • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
                            Why do you think we will be forgetting the "suffering people", maggymay?

                            "I can justify _anything_!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                            We forgot the Afghani women pretty fast.

                            Comment


                            • Well then you have a big problem with history I think because our founding fathers determined this was a white protestant country and that's why even all our money says "IN GOD WE TRUST".
                              Basically the rules were simply that they didn't care which way you worshipped God, but there always that assumption until that atheist lady decided to object.

                              When I went to grade school we did the pledge of allegiance every day and we read a paragraph from the Bible. The school I attended was 99% Hebrew and they leaned to sing Christmas Carols and we all learned about their holidays. I don't know of a single child that ws in that converted away from their own religion and I know there was no discrimination betwist all the various levels of Judaism nor was there war between the protestants and the catholics.

                              So MAYBE! since our generation has to take the blame for having spawned all of you biggoted self centered egotists there was something better in the old way than what is done with this new idea of no religion at all.

                              Maybe instead of boycotting religions it would be better to learn more about them so that you can realize how similiar they really are, instead of judging them by the outrageous extremists that pretend to represent all the religions it would be better to welcome them all into the system.
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>OK, I have a problem with it a HUGE problem. I do NOT want ANY religious values being used in government. I don't care if they're Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Wiccan. Don't need 'em, don't wnat 'em. In my experience deeply religious people are the least tolerant, least compassionate, and least objective. They have privately decided to live by a set of rules that differ from our secular law which is their right, but I don't want them as judges or politicans unless they are proven capable of setting aside their choosen "moral" viewpoint when necessary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              As to the Museum, I listen to BBC and some less hysterical channels and I have learned that many archeologists have confirmed that in that Museum they had made copies of most of the valuable artifacts aand that's what was on exhibit. Further, there have been several certifiiications that they had a system where with only a 24 hour warning they could pack and store every valuable artifact and keep it out of harms way. These archeologists have said that they were personally informed by the Museum that for many years they had practiced this policy whenever danger was threatened. That is certainly has not nor has it been a peaceful part of the world and the idea makes complete sense.

                              In this case they had more than two months to pack up and store everything. Further they do not believe that the Museum could have been raided unless someone had access to the top secret private key system. And they said only experts would have known what artifacts to take because the thieves were very selective and only removed the really valuable items which have already started showing up for sale.

                              It doesn't take an Albert Einstein to figure out that if the loyalists knew the game was over they would grab whatever they could to pave themselves a soft bed. WHY are you so anxious to believe that Americans are always the bad guys? With the knowledge of the above system there would be no reason for the Museum to have a priority since they thought everything was safely locked away.

                              Instead why not be asking how they knew which were the most valuable pieces, how they knew which were copies and how did they get the keys to acquire all the loot.

                              Battle Scarred Veteran
                              http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eomer:
                                How did this thread become a battle ground? Some of you girls need to quit gardening in your husbands BDU's, you're starting to scare the children.

                                "The fool on the hill"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                Eomer...I don't garden. I'm an accountant. But that's okay. I also don't cook or clean. I'm basically a lousy wife with an income.

                                Comment


                                • Maggymay, I am not implying that since Canada does not have a big army Palisades should be quiet. That was not what I meant. A country can still have great influence without a big army.

                                  And just as you interpretted my statements differently as I intended, I did see Palisades
                                  lumping us all together. I know better than to try to speak for the many different and very valid views of the people of our country. I'm not stupid.

                                  As far as India is concerned, I have not heard what you stated so I don't feel educated enough to comment properly.

                                  Comment


                                  • Aregard
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How does a person/army/government prove that something doesn't exist? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    I think that was the question that kept being raised back when WE were the ones saying that we would send forces over unless Iraq would prove beyond doubt that it had completeyd disarmed itself of chemical and biological weapons. I think it is just a bit of hoisting us on our own petard when they now say: Uh, gee, since you guys are in charge now, why don't you go ahead and prove that little thing so we can lift the sanctions, OK?

                                    On the one hand we are saying that there are still a lot of bad guys out there and that the war is not over yet and things are not wrapped up and there is still danger and we still haven't located the WMD, but on the other hand we are saying, everyingthing is fine, lift the sanctions. (BTW - it is by no means clear that any part of the sanctions would prevent the commencement of reconstructive efforts, either under the terms of the sanctions or via the authorizations granted to an occupying force)Everyone, on both sides of the conflict, is speaking out of both sides of their mouth, but we have to realize it in ourselves as well as recognize it in other, IMO.


                                    Museum
                                    With respect to the looting and robbing (BOTH I think have been proven to have existed, not just one or the other) of the Museum, we do know that 1)the same things happened in the South in '91; 2)the issue of the possible looting of this site was something that the Pentagon was alerted to well before we even ceased our diplomatic efforts in the UN; 3)not only was the Pentagon fully aware of this issue, but they were specifically aware of professional thieves poised to loot the Museum, as discussed by the army in a briefing April 5 for correspondents to discuss this very issue http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...7579318260.xml ("There are archaeological cowboys out there right now in Iraq," Lt. Col Jack Kuttas told reporters in Kuwait City.); 4)numerous US and foreign organizations and agencies and individual scholars had all alerted the government to the issues and dangers well prior to the looting; 5)despite the advance notice and the army's own April 5 briefing, at the April 15 Centcom briefing, the position was that there was no way to predict the looting; 6)Rumsfeld's position seems to be that it is just an untidy consequence of freedom, because "free" people are free to do bad things and even commit crimes (NOTE: Please do not test this statement by getting some friends together for a "VISIT" to the National Museum this holiday weekend.); 7) some of the Administration sources and statements have been to the effect that there were just "not enough ground forces" for a city of that size(wasn't this one of the recurring initial criticisms with the Rumsfled plan - that it did not provide the amount of forces necessary to minimize destrucion and damage during occupation?) yet we somehow managed to have plenty of soliders to help topple statutes and even to assign to chipping off a disrespectful mural of GWB in the Al Rashid Hotel http://www-news.uchicago.edu/citatio...ibson-ct.html; 8) everyone agrees that the sole tank and handful of men that did stop briefly by the Museum were able to drive off all the looters with no injuries, but they were not allowed, despite pleas from the Museum staff, to stay; 9)in addition to the Museum artifacts, many of which will (hopefully) be preserved even if in the hands of private collectors, the BURNING of the the books and manuscripts, many many ancient irreplaceable texts, in the National Library, is a complete loss, now and forever. Forever. Gone.

                                    So I will still say that I think we did a bad job, had bad planning, and made bad decisions. YOu can look at pages on this thread, days ago and prior to the Museum looting, that expressed the worries and concerns that we did not have the ground personnel to handle the taking and holding of the major cities in an organized manner. To call the situation "untidy" and to dismiss it as just one of those things that happens with "free people" makes me upset, so I can imagine how it makes the people in the area. I attribute all of Rumsfeld's statements to the administration in total, but geez - doesn't anyone want to shut this guy up and let someone else handle our national position statements that are going to be posted worldwide?

                                    nhr - Glad you clarified. I guess as a country that manufactures chemical and biological weapons, a country that has been pretty happy to use depleted uranium shells, Agent Orange (still causing cancer in Vietnam), Napalm and the like, a country that was assaulted with its own Anthrax, and the only country to have actually used a nuculear weapon (against civilian populated areas) I understand your concern about these kinds of things.

                                    Before you say - how can you compare us to..... I am NOT. But, don't you see, these things are not as black and white as we would all like for them to be - I think some great philosopher named Moesha had something to say about that. What we DO have to be aware of are the reactions of others to what we say and do. Would you let your 13 yo daughter wear a mostly see through blouse and a thong out to a party with a lot of college student and a keg? BUT MOM - she may say - you know I am not THAT KIND of girl. Well, maybe not, but you are responsible fore the effect on others of your actions and statements. If you dress like a whore and claim to be a virgin, you've got to understand that some folks may not be believers.

                                    It takes more than good intentions - it takes thinking about what you do and the consequences - thinking it through and then ponying up and taking responsibility.

                                    ALSO - I do not understand the wide eyed wonder at Russia's statement about its investment. This is pretty much in keeping with the statements you would get from any American company whose factories and facilities in another country are about to be nationalized. This is something we, as a country and a country that supports relatively free trade and capitalism, have come up against many times. It is part of what makes international development risky. Any idea how pricey it is to do the deep drilling and pipeline development in the area? Big big $$. So why would it be a shock that Russia has made this statement? Or was there something I didn't get.

                                    It is a little disingenous to pretend we would let an American company put that kind of money into an overseas project, then have it privatized and they operation of the project offered only to non-American companies, and not be upset. IF we do choose to take the route of kicking out the Russians, I hope that decision will be made with more foresight and planning than what we have shown with regard to the Museum situation. There is a rather large boatload of reasons why we should consider cutting a deal with Russia IMO - for our own economic and national security interests.

                                    WHEW - I have now used most keys and managed, in what I think is a requirment for any lengthy COTH thread, to work in thongs. My work is done.

                                    [This message was edited by mbp on Apr. 18, 2003 at 05:45 PM.]

                                    Comment


                                    • talloaks you are entirely correct - the majority in Canada support the coalition, (contrary to information circulated in the interests of not offending anyone).

                                      There are three reasons Canada is not in the war:

                                      1) the people who think we should be there didnt vote for Chretien

                                      2) Chretien insanely believes he can forge himself a legacy as Champion of the UN

                                      3) Our military is already stretched beyond its capability with deployments in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

                                      Comment


                                      • Snowbird - Some of our founding fathers were Christians, but not all. Some of our original settlor were escaping religious persecution, some were just plain escaping, some were looking to make it rich.

                                        A few founding father quotes:

                                        Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin
                                        Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

                                        "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

                                        I think those types of quotes indicate that, even when the country was founded, it was founded by men who respected someone's right to believe - or not. Not every "founding father" or original settlor had a believe in God and you can see that the concept of having people who question even the except of God within our country was not new and was one that some, at least, of the founding fathers were comfortable with protecting.

                                        Personally, I still stick by "God is great, God is good" and hope I never lose that belief. But I am pretty sure the founding fathers intended to protect even atheists, as long as the exercise of their beliefs did not pick our pockets or break our bones.

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                                        • mbp,

                                          I agree there could have been a better plan about the museums (on everyone's part). The more recent press on this subject is interesting. First, it looks like thing might not be as bad as was initially thought. And secondly, I heard a report on the radio yesterday that said that the Iraqi National Museum in Baghdad believes the worst damage might have been done by an employee, in other words it may have been an inside job planned for a long time. They think that on the basis on what was stolen and what was left behind. That is one reason why the FBI has offered assistance.

                                          I am not going say much about the US's use of nuclear weapons in WWII except that we were at war with Japan at the time. Nuclear weapons were developed while we are at war and used to end the war, not control an ethnic group through genocide. We won and I think that was a good thing. I'll agree Viet Nam wasn't our shining moment. And do you seriously think we'd use Anthrax as a weapon? I know we have weaponized anthrax, but not litres and litres of it lying around in a manner that we can't account for, as Saddam did.

                                          As far as the Russians and the French go, I am only pointing out they aren't pacifists. They did a lot of business with a bad guy. They took the risk, knowing full well they were dancing with a devil. It seems disingenuous to me. To use your analogy about the 16 year old daughter, my primary concern would be for her safety in the scenario you outlined, as I am here. I am not much concerned with the opinions of others ( ) since they aren't always based on anything rational. As to how the US would feel, review your history. It has happened to us plenty, in Iran and South America. It falls under that category of taking your lumps, in my book.
                                          See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

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