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President Bush Issues 48 Hr. Ultimatum....Please Pray For Our Soldiers

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  • I'll add my "well saids" to Beezer as well. I don't agree with 100% of everything that the reasonable posters have posted here, but I very much appreciate their well spoken views and opinions. And just because I support this Administration and military does not mean that I blindly agree with everything they do or how they do it. I, too, worry about the possible repercussions to come that might be because of our actions.

    One thing for sure though, I don't regret getting rid of Saddam's regime and there was no way that was going to happen without military force. Further economic sanctions were only going to make the Iraqi people suffer, not Saddam and his minions. He was only going to get stronger given more time.

    "I can justify anything!"
    \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

    Comment


    • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eomer:
      Machievelli, I believe, defined War as politics by other means. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      Nope, not Machiavelli, but Karl von Clausewitz, the Prussian soldier & strategist. I'd bet money on it.

      Comment


      • Eomer, I have to beg to differ yet again. I DO believe that having volunteered to do a job, being better trained, better prepared and having better equipment, thereby being more confident in oneself, DOES make a difference "when the bullets fly".

        "I can justify anything!"
        \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

        Comment


        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anne FS:
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eomer:
          Machievelli, I believe, defined War as politics by other means. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          Nope, not Machiavelli, but Karl von Clausewitz, the Prussian soldier & strategist. I'd bet money on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          You may be right, very well could have been. I'm "familiar" with Clauswitz, yep you are right, now that you've made me think about I'm sure you are. Got my authors crossed up. Thanks!

          "The fool on the hill"
          \"The fool on the hill\"

          Comment


          • [QUOTE]Originally posted by Duffy:
            Eomer, I have to beg to differ yet again. I DO believe that having volunteered to do a job, being better trained, better prepared and having better equipment, thereby being more confident in oneself, DOES make a difference "when the bullets fly".

            I would agree that it would inhance the survivability of green troops. But taken side by side, IF that could happen, six weeks in (in a no $#!+ war) there would be no difference, beyond what you would normally expect among individuals, in those that were still fighting.

            EDIT

            I've thought about this and want to add, Training aside the green troops suriveablity would still depend MORE on the "quality" of the NCO they were assigned to. A savy sargent can make all the difference in who comes home ... or not. In the end it boils down to kids depending on kids. What we do to ourselves?

            "The fool on the hill"

            [This message was edited by Eomer on Apr. 16, 2003 at 12:33 PM.]
            \"The fool on the hill\"

            Comment


            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:

              BTW, DMK, did you see last week there was an article in _Salon_ _about_ _The Daily Show_? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Wow... it's like nirvana... (and I had to clean off my screen after the first sentence!)

              As for the debate on the merits of a draft versus a voluntary military, I think the draft was in effect for WWI and II, and the fighting forces were very good and effective (Steven Spielburg told me so).

              Draft or volunteer, I suspect it has a lot more to do with the support from the government. In WWI, II and almost every other war other than Vietnam, the internal forces within the administration were supportive of the effort and worked in tandem with the military. The same could not be said of Vietnam.

              As for the technical capability of the modern soldier, I hope they are better trained, better prepared, better supported, better armed, better fed and get less Dear John (or Jane) letters from home than the soldiers of the last war (and the war before that). And I expect the trend to continue for the next war (and the war after that).

              Now on to Syria!

              "Speak yer mind. But ride a fast horse"
              Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

              Comment


              • You would have to live in my family to know that Jesus when he spoke said his Father's house has many doors.

                Mohammed said that Moses and Jesus were both prophets of God and the Koran says that Mohammed joins them as a Prophet. The fact is that Ishmael was the first born son of Abraham and Abraham was God's first chosen one because he did not question but obediently followed God's Commands.

                Abraham's village was UR which is in Iraq and God promised Abraham that he he didn't need to worry because Sarah his wife wanted Hagar and Ishmael out of Abraham's house because God promised Abraham that Ishmael would found a great nation.

                Somewhere along the way we have all felt we were better at interpreting what is God's plan. There are always people who can create a Sect out of a paragraph. Because they are vocal does not make them right, people need somehow to feel special and that weakness creates all the schisms which cause all the trouble. It is Man who creates the differences and not God.

                We all seem to forget the minor sins that are the real weaknesses of humanity, lust, jealousy, greed, pride, vanity. It seems to me that since we are in the image of God then God has some times admitted that he lost his temper and was impatient with his own creation of man. I believe after Noah he promised to never have a temper tantrum again and destroy the earth.

                But God has nothing to do with this problem. We all simply have different ways of following the word and we don't all have tolerance for the others priority. That's our weakness and not that of the message or the messenger.

                Yes! it will be difficult for us as Americans to understand the patient suffering of others. This world is not a place of comparative values because we can't compare something like a value.

                The Arabic peoples have a different set of standards for what is right behavior than we do as Christians or Hebrews or Buddhists or any other religion. We will learn that their personal space is different than ours.

                We have been so isolated here between the big ponds, and we are so self absorbed because in a little over 200 years that we have come from cowboys and native americans to computers and a space travel. They have a civilization that has lasted 10,000 years so time is quite different for them. They have seen religions and peoples assimulated a disappear so they have have learned patience. It's easy to believe that God has looked after us and we are chosen because the rebels from other countries all came here. They don't understand our urgency to acquire so many of the vanity toys we find necessary.

                This will be a great lesson for all of this country to see that it is possible to have other ideas and other priorities and still be good people and free people. Who is there more free than a Bedouin? For the first time in our history we are compelled to meet the whole world and to negotiate with each other and learn to respect each others differences.

                The preachers who preach hell and damnation is for everyone but them are to be pitied not hated.

                Battle Scarred Veteran

                [This message was edited by Snowbird on Apr. 16, 2003 at 11:55 AM.]
                http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                Comment


                • Here's an interesting policy brief from the Carnegie Endowment (thanks RAyers!)...

                  Lessons from the Past: The American Record in Nation-Building

                  Along with the exec summary...

                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Executive Summary

                  The record shows that democratic nation-building is among the most ambitious and difficult of foreign policy undertakings for the United States. Of the 16 over the past century, democracy was sustained in only 4 countries ten years after the departure of American forces. Two of these followed total defeat and surrender (in World War II) and two were in tiny countries (Grenada and Panama). The record also reveals that unilateral nation-building by the United States has an even lower success rate perhaps because unilateralism has led to the creation of surrogate regimes and direct American administration during the interim post-conflict period. The use of interim surrogate regimes has produced a record of complete failure. No American-supported surrogate regime made the transition to democracy and only one case of direct American administration (in Japan) succeeded in ushering in democracy. To heed the lessons of experience, the Bush administration should support a multilateral reconstruction strategy centered on bolstering political legitimacy and economic burden-sharing under the auspices of the United Nations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                  "Speak yer mind. But ride a fast horse"
                  Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                  Comment


                  • Quote from Duffy

                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Oh, and don't call me honey.
                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    dcm's sig line

                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm just the mom.

                    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Quotes from Eomer

                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What's needed is understanding and accpetance of difference's. Better education for our children so that they can think for themselves when confronted with propaganda. And compassion for ... each other.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


                    Eomer responding to dcm
                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> More than "just a Mom", <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Eomer responding to Duffy

                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> HONEY

                    "The fool on the hill" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                    Rather than compassion, how about starting with common courtesy. We'll move on to compassion from there. I have a hard time reconciling the pleas for the world to embrace peace with the jabs and baiting, Eomer.

                    You've shown us that you can talk the talk, walking the walk is a little tougher.
                    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                    Comment


                    • Well, I am certain I can find just as many jabs from dcm, but that would be really tedious. (But not Duffy; she has earned the expectation to be treated like a lady time and time again. ) I am always for common courtesy.
                      The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

                      Comment


                      • Well aren't you the selective one nhwr. How did you ever miss the string of jabs the were ponted at me. You hypocrite. You don't like me, fine. Just don't try to dignify that disdain with the selective BS you posted above.

                        "The fool on the hill"
                        \"The fool on the hill\"

                        Comment


                        • Eomer,

                          I have never made any jabs at you, although possibly others have (this is a long thread). I don't condone them either.

                          I never said I don't like you. In point of fact, I don't know enough about you to like or dislike you. I am not a hypocrite. It is just that you had me believing you were sincere with the "Peace on earth, goodwill toward men" thing. I am disappointed, that's all.
                          See those flying monkeys? They work for me.

                          Comment


                          • nhwr, amen sister!

                            Comment


                            • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What makes Christianity right and all the hundreds of other religions wrong? And don't tell me "Because it says so in the Bible." The Torah, Koran, etc. all say basicly the same thing about THEIR God, so give me some other REAL reasons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Arguing over religion is like arguing over who has the best imaginary friend. Besides, what Jesus, Mohammed, etc. preached was not religion, it was spirituality. Unfortunately, being flawed human beings, we managed to royally screw things up and apply narrow-minded views to the teachings of these spiritual leaders. Religion was created by man, for man. It barely resembles the messages that our heavenly creator was trying to send us through his earthly messengers.

                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Posted by Eomer: Well aren't you the selective one nhwr. How did you ever miss the string of jabs the were ponted at me. You hypocrite. You don't like me, fine. Just don't try to dignify that disdain with the selective BS you posted above.

                              "The fool on the hill"
                              <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              You've gotta love a man that lives up to his signature line.

                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              A dog has one master, a cat has an entire staff.
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              If the Number 2 pencil is so popular, why is it still number 2?

                              Comment


                              • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
                                I don't think anyone has brought up the phrase "freedom of speech" more than you dcm. NO ONE said you didn't have that right. Eomer said "don't expect me to respond". Or something like that (was it Eomer?) No need to get snippy with me....

                                _I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                bgoosewood, you made fun of a comment I made to Eomer that I was totally serious about. To me that says you belittled me as a person. Maybe face to face it would have 'sounded' different, but after Eomer discounted my being a mom, I was understandably sensitive.

                                ********
                                I'm just the mom.

                                Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

                                Comment


                                • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eomer:
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:
                                  Eyore<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  this isn't going to be flatering, is it?

                                  My apologies, it was a purposeful dig. I take it back. I do, however, have a hard time pronouncing your name. Help me out, please.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> your dismissal of my being a mom was so insulting to me yesterday. That is the most important thing in my life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  I whole heartedly agree, Motherhood is job one, no other comes close to it in importantce. But I did not dismiss you as a mother. I dismissed you as an expert on military training and your right to be so audacious as to even _pretend_ to question mine. I have never braged or stated that I was even in the military, exactly. My background is supposition because one day when someone (it might have been you)was talking of killing and war and glory; or some part of that, I told them they were talking out of their @$$. And went on to alude to some of my experiences, of which I find no pride.

                                  You can question the government, but I cannot question you? How is that fair? My question was as legitimate as yours are about the administration.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Second, your continued claim that the war is about oil + your comment that if it is oil then GWB could be tried for treason = you believe GWB should be tried for treason.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  I believe it is my DUTY as a citizen of this country to call bull$#!+ when I see it. The Bush clan's ties to big money and oil, and their general disdain for "common" folk is well documented. Everyone has had superiors they don't like. Mr. President is my Commander and Chief, I have to respect that. But I will do my best to alter that situation in the next election. You do whatever math you like. I never said nor do I think it would serve our Country to try him for treason. But I believe it would be treasoness for any President to use our Country's resources, especially the military for their own ends.

                                  Ok. So the Bush family does not have the best of personalities.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>it made me angry, therefore the which means 'mad'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  Yeah, well get over it.

                                  I am, simply by being able to state how I felt about your comment.

                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nothing to do with your great age, whatever it is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  I'm not _that_ old; where did that come from anyway? Nevermind.

                                  Okay with me.

                                  "The fool on the hill"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                  No problem here, Eomer. We all have questions that need answering, we all have opinions that differ, and we all live here together in relative peace. That is the beauty of this country.

                                  ********
                                  I'm just the mom.

                                  Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

                                  Comment


                                  • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
                                    Well, I am certain I can find just as many jabs from dcm, but that would be really tedious. (But not Duffy; she has earned the expectation to be treated like a lady time and time again. ) I am always for common courtesy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    And well, I guess you continue to belittle me.

                                    What makes you so much better than me?

                                    Sorry, this is becoming too personal for me. I asked legitimate questions of people and have been belittled and insulted. How dare some of you do that to me? I support our soldiers, I support our government, and I am damn proud to be an American. I do not necessarily agree with the way GWB handled this, but by God we went in and GWB along with our troops deserved our support. So many of you have gone out of your way to find as much negatives as possible about GWB and this country. That is the negatives I was speaking of. Page after page after page.....

                                    ********
                                    I'm just the mom.

                                    Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

                                    Comment


                                    • DMK,

                                      Try that post again. I'm not sure anybody heard.

                                      I am still trying to go through all of that information not to mention get more details about the idea that the origins of the doctrine that this war is based upon can be traced as far back as the Ford administration.

                                      Reed

                                      Comment


                                      • Anybody agree with this guy?

                                        &lt;&lt;blasted US foreign policy adopted in the wake of the September 11 attacks, arguing the United States cannot kill, jail or occupy all of its adversaries.

                                        "Our paradigm now seems to be: something terrible happened to us on September 11, and that gives us the right to interpret all future events in a way that everyone else in the world must agree with us, and if they don't, they can go straight to hell."

                                        He said that sooner or later the United States had to find a way to cooperate with the world at large.

                                        "We can't run. If you got an interdependent world, and you cannot kill, jail or occupy all your adversaries, sooner or later you have to make a deal."

                                        He said he believed Washington overreacted to German and French opposition to US plans for military action against Iraq and suggested that the current administration had trouble juggling foreign and domestic issues.

                                        "Since September 11, it looks like we can't hold two guns at the same time. If you fight terrorism, you can't make America a better place to be." &gt;&gt;

                                        I think this is what a LOT of Americans feel.

                                        Comment


                                        • <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eomer:
                                          What's rash about it, shall I start a poll.
                                          How many here know what death smells like.
                                          How it feels to have someones life eb from them, and you were the one that took it.
                                          Who remembers the gurgling gasp of last breath
                                          How many have fallen sick to their stomach at the sight of battle.
                                          Who watched a friend die when it should have been you.

                                          Shall we have that poll? Fools rush in where angles fear to tread. War is fun, lets us all go. You don't know what you're missing.

                                          "The fool on the hill"
                                          <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


                                          Well, I can't speak for those "angles' Eomer, but can see what's missing here....how about a footnote for that poem you tried to pass off as personal experience? I'm sure it was just a simple oversight. Surely you wouldn't portray war with such passion had you not survived one?

                                          Yes, you're a sly one Eomer. We were moved by your words, so few and far between. They had us thinking you were one of the unsung heros, uncelebrated, unappreciated, perhaps humbled by the stigma of having served in a less than popular military action.

                                          But now it's apparent Eomer, your badge of courage begins and ends with the click of your mouse. Sorry, but we don't need you to glamorize the horrors of war. I'm sure there are enough real live veterans right here who could do it much more accurately, even if not so eloquently. And there'd be no need for footnotes because it isn't necessary to paraphrase words that come from the heart.

                                          Now if you're still intent on taking a poll, Eomer, how about this one? Choose all that apply.

                                          __Would you serve in the military if called upon to do so by your country?
                                          __Would you serve your country voluntarily, even without the draft?
                                          __Would you use any means possible to get a deferment rather than be drafted?
                                          __Would you use any means possible to get into a leading military college?
                                          __Could you convince yourself and everyone else that you were always a CO at heart?
                                          __Would you be on the next plane to Canada?

                                          There's no PASS or FAIL here. You know what you are.
                                          "WHINNYING" IS EVERYTHING!!

                                          Comment

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