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Friend is at wit's end with insanely mean mare

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  • #61
    Originally posted by 2DogsFarm View Post
    WTFruitbat??!?!?

    I'm another one curious about where you are seeing all this violence and thinking your perception is mightily skewed.

    Trust me, I can get obedient behavior from both my 12h Hackney & my 17h+ WB as well as from every horse I've ever owned or worked with without anything even approaching the crack-dream you describe.
    In most cases just my tone of voice or The Look is all it takes.
    LOL...I'm thinking the same thing! I can discipline my horses and they still gallop half a mile to greet me from the pasture when they see me (poor mistreated creatures).

    And wendy, you boarded someplace like that and didn't turn people in? Did you share the video with the HSUS? You should have! It sounds wretched. I'd love to know what you did to help the horses out that were subjected to that - it sounds awful! and would keep me awake at night.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Snowflake View Post
      I don't agree with this. I had a mare that was very much as described in the OP. She was 8 years old and had been through 7 homes because she was simply evil incarnate. I got her from a woman who, I found out after the fact, was terrified of her.

      She was just plain nasty on the ground but really a peach to ride. We had a few explosive CTJ moments but what she really needed to learn that I did not tolerate her BS. One step out of line resulted in me sprouting an extra head and becoming the scariest monster she's ever encountered. And I always had to be prepared - there was no "going to get the whip" as in your friends case. I had the whip in my hand and I was always ready to use it. I couldn't let my guard down for a moment and any punishment had to be immediate, hard and fast.

      It took about a good 3 months before things really sunk in that a.) she wasn't going anywhere and being shuffled off to the next unsuspecting person and b.) I was always one step ahead of her. I think after that she relaxed quite a bit and stopped needed to put on a show. She got the fact that she wasn't tougher or smarter than me and there was no point in trying to prove any different. Had she gone to a less experienced horse person, I know she would have the real potential to hurt someone and probably severely. In that case, I think it would have been in her best interest to put her down.

      I've owned this mare 11 years now and will never sell her considering her past. I don't want to run the risk of her ever reverting back to that horse again. She's in a good place and is a wonderful horse. But, I would have to ask your friend if she's willing to make that level of commitment for this mare. If she can't, then it's much fairer to put her down.
      I had to requote this because its really just where its at, with the OP's friend's mare. She has to make a commitment to be one step ahead of the horse at all times. She has to be able to train her in her ground work, and has to be able to have the skills to come back at her hard and fast if the mare even thinks of laying an ear wrong.

      Horses communicate as we see them in the field - if a horse moves into another horse's space, either the other horse yields, in which case the dominant horse has 'won' and can continue to bully the other horse, or else the other horse stands his ground and does.not.move.

      If you move your feet, for example, the horse has taken the upper hand. If a horse lunges at you, teeth bared, and you take a step away, the horse has just been trained to keep you submissive by lunging at you with teeth bared. How you handle each 'challenge' - and this mare is both challenging and keeping her status as 'dominant' - is training the horse.

      Horses have the capability to escalate according to their personality - a horse who believes, as the OP's Friend's mare does, that she can bully the owner, has alot of tricks in her repretoir to keep pulling out until the owner moves her feet.

      That is why we carry a whip for a dangerous, dominant horse. It is an extension of OUR repretoir, and extension of our arm, our teeth. We can't bite back, or turn our haunches and let a kick fly to make our point. There are other 'tricks' such as a war bridle, to make a horse back up - making him move his feet while you advance really makes a strong impression.

      It would take, I know, a good trainer to train the horse, and to then train this owner, who is far, far out of her league, with only treats and finger shaking in her bag of tricks. The mare's bag of tricks is so much more dangerous and extensive and she has to be made to believe that yours, or the owner's is bigger and badder.

      Lots of luck to her, but I don't foresee a good ending, if the owner can't get on board with learning how to correctly handle this horse.
      My warmbloods have actually drunk mulled wine in the past. Not today though. A drunk warmblood is a surly warmblood. - WildandWickedWarmbloods

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      • #63
        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post

        So.
        Someone has brought Wendy a horse to train, and upon unloading it from the trailer, it tries to bolt forward past the leadrope and kick back at her.

        How specifically does Wendy handle this situation?

        I for one would have that horse briskly popped with the chain shank a couple times and whacked on the offending leg so it steps AWAY from me, but this would apparently be "violence begetting violence" so I'm all ears for alternatives.
        I had a new gelding lunge at my 6 year old child and grab her by the head, taking a chunk of scalp. I instantly went all momma bear on that horse and scared the bejeezus out of him - you bet I was "violent". I barely made contact with him with the fork handle I was holding, but he burst off at warp speed and tried to come back over and over while I was tending to my daughter. I drove him off several times for another several minutes. He deserved that and he never tried anything remotely that violent ever again....but I never gave him an inch again (first by mother instinct but then it was all was fine-tuned by an instructor who took it even farther and showed me the less obvious signs of his rudeness and insecurity). That horse adored me and would climb the fence to get to me - he wasn't afraid of me, he was relieved someone was actually in charge. THAT was what was missing in his previous handling. An insecure horse reacts like an idiot from being treated like a baby by an insecure, uncertain handler - they just want SOMEONE to keep them safe and in line.

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        • #64
          I think this is true. Hopefully the OP can convey some of this to her friend in Australia. She's a teen in CA, I think, so the OP isn't actually in touch with the friend, as far as I can tell. We can only wish the friend well, and hope that she gets good counseling and appropriate training from someone.
          My warmbloods have actually drunk mulled wine in the past. Not today though. A drunk warmblood is a surly warmblood. - WildandWickedWarmbloods

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Ambitious Kate View Post
            Horses communicate as we see them in the field - if a horse moves into another horse's space, either the other horse yields, in which case the dominant horse has 'won' and can continue to bully the other horse, or else the other horse stands his ground and does.not.move.
            This is true, but the communication started way before one horse stepped into another's space. Horses do 95% of their communication visually. All it takes is a flicked ear or even less to signal intention way before anything else happens. We humans miss most of it because we're so used to communicating verbally.

            And that's why humans say "all of a sudden, my horse spooked/kicked/bit/whatever" when the horse was showing signs all along of what it was likely to do. We just didn't notice -- either because we don't know the horse (or at least not as well as we think we do) or we weren't paying sufficient attention.

            Horses with dangerous habits MUST have handlers who are both vigilant and can pick up those tiny tiny changes that signal the horse is about to act up. Or have really good health insurance.
            __________________________
            "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
            the best day in ten years,
            you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

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            • #66
              Originally posted by wendy View Post
              violence begets violence.

              SENSELESS violence does, but not strong, physical dominating body language and physical responses. In the field, the animal who stands their ground 'wins'. If you don't insist that a horse respect you and your space, he will take over and be the dominant animal. Not a choice, in my book.


              I know the old "dominance" and "alpha" concepts based on violence and force are still very popular (no idea why), but if you repeatedly attack an animal ("come to jesus" meetings, "corrections"), some animals will become afraid of you and will become "passive" around you, but not surprisingly, some will fight back. That's what this gelding, and the OP's mare is doing- she's responding to the violence directed at her with violence.

              No, she's not, and if you knew anything about horses, you would know that she is not responding to violence, she is using all the tools in her toolkit to intimidate the owner and make the owner 'passive'. The mare has no problem dominating the owner and is doing so effectively. Its not violent, not to her, its appropriate alpha behaviour on the part of the horse.

              If you discard the violence, dominance, "alpha" concepts and instead use cooperative, motivational methods of handling, she may stop trying to kill you and may turn into a partner for you.

              That's ignorant - YOU may discard the dominance and alpha concepts, but the mare won't. That's how she operates, that's how horses operate. An agressive animal is "alpha" and you have a choice - either the 1200 pound animal is in charge or you are. So far, the owner is letting the animal be in charge, and the horse will go to any length to keep that status.

              A horse communicates with HORSE communication, not human communication.

              The "laying the horse down" procedure is the ultimate in violence. Its intent is to destroy the animal psychologically- induce "learned helplessness".

              Its only you who thinks the horse is destroyed by being laid down. Its ignorant to think the procedure is violent, if done by a competant trainer. It doesn't have to be violent if done correctly, and doesn't always have to be used at all, but it can be a useful tool for controlling some horses.

              Why people think they can win a physical fight with a huge animal I do not know. Instead of picking fights, why not use your brain?

              It takes brains to train a horse to back off if they are agressive. It takes brains to teach a horse that when they are in your presence they respect your space, period, no possiblities for negotiation or treats about it.

              If we can figure out ways to get dolphins to work with us without beating them up, surely we can figure out ways to get horses to work with us without beating them up and teaching them to try to kill us in retaliation.

              Horses don't kill in retaliation - they kill in agression and dominance. Horses don't retaliate - they react. Retaliation is a human characteristic, and antrhopomorphosizing horses is a dangerous ignorant thing to do.

              Nobody is beating up the horse. A sharp sting with a whip, or whap under the jaw, is one way to respond to a horse who is going to use his teeth on you, when you don't have teeth to give it to him before he gives it to you. And as for dolphins, they will kill you in a heartbeat and make no mistake. It is extremely dangerous to work with dolphins, who are agressive, incredibly strong animals (they will slaughter all the young in a strange pod they come across, and try to kill the rest of the adults as well). They also are NOT horses, and don't think like, or act like horses. Dolphins are predators, horses are prey animals, and the difference in training and handling is NOT to be mistaken. That was a very poor comparison. Not comparable at all.
              I just wanted to adress this - my responses in red. I found the post to be full of fallacies and really bad and dangerous statements about horses.
              My warmbloods have actually drunk mulled wine in the past. Not today though. A drunk warmblood is a surly warmblood. - WildandWickedWarmbloods

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #67
                Stopping in again - I have gave her the gist of the thread. She's very attached to this horse and really does not want to euth her. Her trainer (renowned AU eventing trainer, Chris something?) has tried working with the mare to no avail.
                Proud member of the COTH Junior (and Junior-at-Heart!) clique!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by PonyPeep View Post
                  Stopping in again - I have gave her the gist of the thread. She's very attached to this horse and really does not want to euth her. Her trainer (renowned AU eventing trainer, Chris something?) has tried working with the mare to no avail.
                  That doesn't sound good. I hope it works out somehow.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by MistyBlue View Post
                    An extremely violent and mean woman just might be pacified with an exploding penis.
                    isn't that like deflating the football at the end of the game...

                    wait........
                    Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                    I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

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                    • #70
                      I have an eventing Australian friend with a MEAN 8 year old OTTB mare. She has never been abused, had a perfectly normal upbringing, but is, for lack of a better word, a female dog. Her owner, S, was picking her hooves today and got kicked in the back.

                      Try having the mare wear kicking chains while picking her feet (accustom her to them first as a normal first reaction is to try to kick them off).

                      This mare should probably be introduced to hobbles, scotch hobbles and tying up a front leg (not all at once) to demonstrate to her that humans can handle all parts of her body without causing her harm and at the same time keep her from harming them – which means keeps the handler calm and the horse unattacked.

                      Really needs to be taught to stand tied as well. Sacking out and stroking with a long whip.

                      3 years ago, S was riding her and the horse tripped, threw her off and then trampled her, breaking her back.

                      Leave that alone. 3 years ago is a long time. “threw her off? No. rider fell when mare lost her balance. The rest was an unfortunate sequence unless the horse turned back and attempted to stomp her –unlikely.

                      Just last week, S got kicked by this horse and when S went to retaliate with a whip, the horse grabbed her by the arm and dragged her.

                      Retaliate is the wrong response for a trainer. Trainers see the kick coming with this sort of horse and squelch the behavior before the escalation. This horse also likely pulls her feet away from the handler, tries to kneel or bite or hop sideways when being groomed/picked. All these behaviors are leading up to the kick and should be addressed long before actual hiking a leg, let alone taking a shot at a human starts.

                      When I asked what methods she's tried to correct this behavior, she said "natural horsemanship, whips, catching her only in a bridle, bareback riding to "connect" with her, food, treats, professional trainers, calming supplements, seperating her from other horses, keeping her in the home paddock where i spend all my time with her to get her used to me, ignoring her" and NOTHING has worked. she's a phenomonal mare under saddle, talented, trainable, but S has never competed her because she's genuinely afraid that the mare would hurt a spectator once she got off. She's afraid of breeding her for fear that the foal would turn out the same OR the mare would hurt the foal.

                      She's had vet and chiro out, it isn't a pain issue. She is just at her wit's end and I want to help her! Any suggestions?


                      She needs to stop trying to make friends with this horse, she is annoying it and encouraging wrong behavior. No treats, no bareback riding no spending time with her just cause.

                      Staying out of reach and always having something for the mare to do for the handler is a very good approach.
                      Keep it all business with “that’s it!” or “Good!”
                      Having a long buggy or longe whip, not a crop, for cueing and correction (not retaliation) keeps the handler far from teeth and heels.
                      And if you do use a crop for correction be sure the horse isn’t backed into a corner – they will defend themselves and humans are no equal to their strength.

                      If the handler doesn’t have the skills needed she needs to find a trainer that does.

                      The horse needs to be WORKED to develop a habit of obedience and doing the right things. Horses prefer a hassle-free experience and need to understand they can choose that by doing as they are asked, one simple stage at a time.
                      Habits are developed over time. in the mean time, don't be a target.

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