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Friend is at wit's end with insanely mean mare

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  • #41
    but other than that- watch out. He will charge you down in the field and kick you, he will corner you in his stall and kick you, he will attack you when you try to tack him up, etc. (And yes, he has had thorough medical work ups). He has no abuse in his past and I started him. I also know his parents and owned a full sibling to him- all are super sweet horses. Any type of come to jesus meeting makes him worse- if you go after him, he will come after you. After trying pretty much everything we could think of, including hauling him across country to a BNT- we decided to try laying him down. I know it's not a popular method,
    violence begets violence.

    I know the old "dominance" and "alpha" concepts based on violence and force are still very popular (no idea why), but if you repeatedly attack an animal ("come to jesus" meetings, "corrections"), some animals will become afraid of you and will become "passive" around you, but not surprisingly, some will fight back. That's what this gelding, and the OP's mare is doing- she's responding to the violence directed at her with violence. If you discard the violence, dominance, "alpha" concepts and instead use cooperative, motivational methods of handling, she may stop trying to kill you and may turn into a partner for you. No, these methods have nothing to do with "natural horsemanship" methods, which are firmly entrenched in the "dominance" paradigm. Instead, they use behavioral modification techniques established in studies in laboratories and for working with wild animals. Instead of using brute force, you communicate and motivate. Clicker training was derived from these studies.

    The "laying the horse down" procedure is the ultimate in violence. Its intent is to destroy the animal psychologically- induce "learned helplessness".

    Why people think they can win a physical fight with a huge animal I do not know. Instead of picking fights, why not use your brain? If we can figure out ways to get dolphins to work with us without beating them up, surely we can figure out ways to get horses to work with us without beating them up and teaching them to try to kill us in retaliation.

    Euthanasia is certainly a valid option- keeping a huge animal that is trying to kill people seems like a very bad idea.

    Comment


    • #42
      There's another thread somewhere on here with a video of a horse behavior guy -- I think he would consider laying the horse down "flooding,' which brings about learned helplessness.

      Kind of like "stewarding." Fries their brain.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
        In unskilled hands, "natural horsemanship" is a really, really good way to spoil a horse and teach it to be a total bully. And if the natural tendency is already there, God help the amateur finger-shaker.

        Sounds like the mare needs a "come to Jesus" with someone who is REALLY, TRULY, and GENUINELY EXPERT in handling and retraining a spoilt, aggressive horse. It might not be pretty, but the horse is worthless unless it can be handled safely. Cowboy time.
        I could not agree more. The ONLY horse that I'm constantly having behavior issues with on the ground (although not to that extent!) belongs to one of those amateur finger-shakers.
        Originally posted by EquineImagined
        My subconscious is a wretched insufferable beotch.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by wendy View Post
          violence begets violence.

          I know the old "dominance" and "alpha" concepts based on violence and force are still very popular (no idea why), but if you repeatedly attack an animal ("come to jesus" meetings, "corrections"), some animals will become afraid of you and will become "passive" around you, but not surprisingly, some will fight back. That's what this gelding, and the OP's mare is doing- she's responding to the violence directed at her with violence. If you discard the violence, dominance, "alpha" concepts and instead use cooperative, motivational methods of handling, she may stop trying to kill you and may turn into a partner for you. No, these methods have nothing to do with "natural horsemanship" methods, which are firmly entrenched in the "dominance" paradigm. Instead, they use behavioral modification techniques established in studies in laboratories and for working with wild animals. Instead of using brute force, you communicate and motivate. Clicker training was derived from these studies.

          The "laying the horse down" procedure is the ultimate in violence. Its intent is to destroy the animal psychologically- induce "learned helplessness".

          Why people think they can win a physical fight with a huge animal I do not know. Instead of picking fights, why not use your brain? If we can figure out ways to get dolphins to work with us without beating them up, surely we can figure out ways to get horses to work with us without beating them up and teaching them to try to kill us in retaliation.

          Euthanasia is certainly a valid option- keeping a huge animal that is trying to kill people seems like a very bad idea.
          sorry but most of that is a bunch of BS- you can live in your nicey, nice world but I far prefer the real one. No one has beat the horse I am talking of- has he been disclipined? of course he has. And I'm guessing you've never actually seen a horse that was laid down, it is not violent at all- dominant yes, violent no.
          "You'll never see yourself in the mirror with your eyes closed"

          Comment


          • #45
            TR is about the last person on the planet I can see attacking a horse. Good heavens, that drama llama is saddled and waiting at the ready, isn't it?

            Some horses, rare though they may be, have a chip on their shoulder. TR raised this colt. Owned his full brother, IIRC. And she raises and trains quality horses. She routinely handles top notch horses. She's not some yokel snatching and yanking and throwing horses for sport. This horse has a chip on his shoulder. And I am confident that she laid him down calmly, without emotion, no dramatics... simply to show him she could take his power, his feet, away from him. Big yawn.

            I know TR doesn't need me or anyone to do her fighting for her, but good heavens, I know her IRL and I'd trust her with any of mine, all day long. For what that's worth, I trust her read on this situation with this horse. I know her horsemanship. She's good in my book.

            Comment


            • #46
              Two suggestions:

              1. Cock.
              2. Boom!
              An extremely violent and mean woman just might be pacified with an exploding penis.
              You jump in the saddle,
              Hold onto the bridle!
              Jump in the line!
              ...Belefonte

              Comment


              • #47
                And the thread takes a bizarre turn.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by katarine View Post
                  TR is about the last person on the planet I can see attacking a horse. Good heavens, that drama llama is saddled and waiting at the ready, isn't it?

                  Some horses, rare though they may be, have a chip on their shoulder. TR raised this colt. Owned his full brother, IIRC. And she raises and trains quality horses. She routinely handles top notch horses. She's not some yokel snatching and yanking and throwing horses for sport. This horse has a chip on his shoulder. And I am confident that she laid him down calmly, without emotion, no dramatics... simply to show him she could take his power, his feet, away from him. Big yawn.

                  I know TR doesn't need me or anyone to do her fighting for her, but good heavens, I know her IRL and I'd trust her with any of mine, all day long. For what that's worth, I trust her read on this situation with this horse. I know her horsemanship. She's good in my book.
                  Thanks Katarine
                  "You'll never see yourself in the mirror with your eyes closed"

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
                    In unskilled hands, "natural horsemanship" is a really, really good way to spoil a horse and teach it to be a total bully. And if the natural tendency is already there, God help the amateur finger-shaker.

                    Sounds like the mare needs a "come to Jesus" with someone who is REALLY, TRULY, and GENUINELY EXPERT in handling and retraining a spoilt, aggressive horse. It might not be pretty, but the horse is worthless unless it can be handled safely. Cowboy time.



                    I could not agree more. The ONLY horse that I'm constantly having behavior issues with on the ground (although not to that extent!) belongs to one of those amateur finger-shakers.
                    __________________
                    Quote:



                    ture

                    i bet youve been feeding her/him tipbits and treats thats a no no horsey after foody and not you

                    and i bet you have it on a high energy diet - thats also a no no
                    have a high energy diet and lovely lush green grass and lovely treats
                    you will have a ticking time bomb on your hands that wont do jack s$$t

                    horses only have 2 fear factors 1sy is to flee 2nd is to advade you that can be handled ridden or driven

                    baering on whats been said above with the natural horsemanship

                    then you will have a bully no doubts about it


                    listen
                    up any commands or signals must be directly given

                    pat and scratch the horse rather than sweeties as a reward the horse sees it in his mind as bonding as this what they do to one another they don't give each other sweets

                    your horse now knows his/her own strength which isnt and shouldn't be allowed as it will be harder for you to gain control of him/her

                    your horse is aggressive you may think but more likely to be defensive rather than aggrressive why

                    every thing you have taught it you have confused the horse
                    confusion is a fear factor ---------------- so horsey is defensive


                    you need to calm this horse down and get him/her to respect you

                    1 restrict it in take of all feedstuffs that's concentrates- and just feed play old hay ab lib

                    2- get the horse out in the field more

                    3- work it on lunge until you can ride it, if you can ride it then work the horse in plenty of walk and trot using all paces of walk and all paces of trot do not canter it until its been worked in properly and if this takes you all day then so be it

                    4- put the horse to bed with his tea and leaft him to settle dont disturb him rest period

                    5- put a wooden bar nose height up above his door this will stop him lunging if he has a tendancy to do which i bet he does

                    the bar acts as illussion making the door look bigger if how ever when you go into the stable he does not respect you in his space then by having the bar up as you pull it out it makes a loud noise the horse should automactically walk backwards from the door, if how ever he does not get your friend the broom
                    and hold it up side down and tap the floor and say back

                    horse should step back, if he doesn't then outstretch our arm with broom and tap the floor again the horse will automactically walk backwards
                    if not turn the broom sideways tap the wall and hold other arm out side ways he will go back then


                    the point of this illussion is you have make yourself bigger than he is
                    so he will be more respectful of you i have given you ideas of how to make an illusion work for you with him

                    the other one also works - if hes still lunging over door then place a blanket over the bar he wont see so he wont do it again the illusion of the door being bigger and closed in

                    when dealing with horses that show aggression or in this case denfenssive
                    you have to find the route cause to sort the problem - and i have no doubt in my mind its what deltaware says it is

                    but you must set your boundairies now and be assetive with him
                    you must not be hesistant----- lack of confidence
                    these are all fear factors to a horse
                    lack of confidence creates a doubt
                    a doubt creats a fear factor to a horse,
                    hesistant creates a doubt and a doubt creats a fear factor to ahorse

                    your voice and tones of voice count talk to him as you would another human and not nampy pmaby baby talk they dont undertsand that and gues what it creates a doubt a doubt is a fear factor

                    so use your tones as him something via direct signal of command
                    and not a halft peeny pied one as that creates a doubt

                    this horse has been brought up by you as dunno ifs a him or her and horses only leanr by the human hand

                    so what ever your doing good or bad you have taught him/her that
                    and guess what horses have long memories

                    so get that respect and regain control becuase he will end up killing someone if you dont and the only way for him which is not his fualt
                    is to have him pts

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      No one has beat the horse I am talking of- has he been disclipined? of course he has. And I'm guessing you've never actually seen a horse that was laid down, it is not violent at all- dominant yes, violent no.
                      most traditional ways of handling horses are extremely violent and forceful, and "discipline" is always an act of violence. Anyone who talks about convincing the animal that you are "dominant" or "the alpha" is talking about using violence or threats of violence against the animal to intimidate and bully the animal into not-behaving or not-reacting.
                      You don't think of it as violence because you consider it to be "normal", but from an objective point of view it is violence directed at the horse. Chains, whips, spurs, ropes, threats, slaps, yelling, bullying. Go to any barn, and just hang out, you'll observe regular acts of violence against the horses. You shank a horse with a chain, that is an act of violence. You hit a horse with a whip, that is an act of violence. You use ropes to forcible lay a horse down on the ground, that is an act of extreme violence.
                      The "laying the horse down" is a deliberate attempt to induce "learned helplessness". This a state in which the horse is taught that nothing he can do will release him from pain and fear, so he stops trying.
                      There are quite a few traditional horse handling methods that are designed to create "learned helplessness": for example, tie the horse's head to his stirrup for an hour, or tie him out in the hot sun on a short rope for hours on end.
                      Even our terminology admits that is what some people try to do to horses: we "break" them.

                      So basic, non-abusive traditional horse handling and training methods are violent. Most horses simply "get broke" and stop doing much at all around humans unless given orders to do something. They are broken.
                      Some animals don't, and they fight back. Which is what this mare is doing. And the owner responds with escalation of the violence, and you're trapped in a physical fight with a huge, dangerous animal who is out to get you before you get her. It's stupid and very avoidable.

                      Violence begets violence. Several studies have shown that animal trainers who use the paradigm of "dominance" to train animals are much more likely to end up with animals who are violent towards humans and exhibit behavioral problems. Trainers who don't feel the need to be "dominant" and instead just go about training using behavioral modification are much more likely to end up with peaceful, non-violent animals without behavioral problems. Children raised in an atmosphere of violence- spankings, intimidation, bullying- tend to grow up to be violent themselves. Violence begets violence.

                      You see the effects of the violence directed against horses all the time, you just think it's normal. Go to any barn, and if you hang out and watch, you'll see a level of on-going violence that is rather disturbing to see in what should be well-behaved, well-trained animals. Horses turning their butts to threaten to kick anyone coming into their stall. Horses biting at people trying to saddle them. People arming themselves with pitchforks and whips before approaching horses. This is fallout from the violence people choose to direct against horses in the name of training. The people are violent towards the horses, so the horses are violent towards the people, so the people are violent towards the horses.

                      There are better ways to train animals that don't require you to intimidate, bully, whip, shank, or "discipline" the animal.
                      You don't have to be "dominant" over an animal in order to train or handle the animal, you just have to train the animal using established methods of behavioral modification.
                      It's probably too late for this particular mare, she might have to be put down for everyone's safety, but possibly not.
                      Escalating the violence against the mare is very unlikely to be successful, she'll just fight back all the harder. Unless you actually DO manage to "break" her. In which case it would have been kinder to just put her down.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by wendy View Post


                        You see the effects of the violence directed against horses all the time, you just think it's normal. Go to any barn, and if you hang out and watch, you'll see a level of on-going violence that is rather disturbing to see in what should be well-behaved, well-trained animals. Horses turning their butts to threaten to kick anyone coming into their stall. Horses biting at people trying to saddle them. People arming themselves with pitchforks and whips before approaching horses. This is fallout from the violence people choose to direct against horses in the name of training. The people are violent towards the horses, so the horses are violent towards the people, so the people are violent towards the horses.
                        Where do you board?? I have had horses since I was 12 and boarded them until I was lucky enough to buy my own farm 7 years ago. I have never seen what you are talking about here. I guess I have been lucky to have have never experienced what you are talking about and I have been at polo barns, saddlebred barns and reining/reined cowhorse barns.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by spotnnotfarm View Post
                          Where do you board?? I have had horses since I was 12 and boarded them until I was lucky enough to buy my own farm 7 years ago. I have never seen what you are talking about here. I guess I have been lucky to have have never experienced what you are talking about and I have been at polo barns, saddlebred barns and reining/reined cowhorse barns.
                          I agree!! I have never seen anything like this, ever, anywhere I have boarded.
                          What's wrong with you?? Your cheese done slid off its cracker?!?!

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by wendy View Post
                            violence begets violence.
                            Originally posted by wendy View Post
                            You don't think of it as violence because you consider it to be "normal", but from an objective point of view it is violence directed at the horse. Chains, whips, spurs, ropes, threats, slaps, yelling, bullying. Go to any barn, and just hang out, you'll observe regular acts of violence against the horses. You shank a horse with a chain, that is an act of violence. You hit a horse with a whip, that is an act of violence.
                            What planet are you on? It sounds nice.

                            While I don't approve of extreme violence, punishment definitely plays a role in dealing with horses. It's not stupid on the part of the humans. It's a way of communicating DIRECTLY with the horse without having to bribe him every second of every day. Have you ever watched horses interacting with each other?

                            My horse responds very nicely to your definition of violence. He'd be a total PITA otherwise.

                            OP have this mare's testosterone levels been checked??

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by wendy View Post
                              most traditional ways of handling horses are extremely violent and forceful, and "discipline" is always an act of violence. Anyone who talks about convincing the animal that you are "dominant" or "the alpha" is talking about using violence or threats of violence against the animal to intimidate and bully the animal into not-behaving or not-reacting.
                              You don't think of it as violence because you consider it to be "normal", but from an objective point of view it is violence directed at the horse. Chains, whips, spurs, ropes, threats, slaps, yelling, bullying. Go to any barn, and just hang out, you'll observe regular acts of violence against the horses. You shank a horse with a chain, that is an act of violence. You hit a horse with a whip, that is an act of violence. You use ropes to forcible lay a horse down on the ground, that is an act of extreme violence.
                              The "laying the horse down" is a deliberate attempt to induce "learned helplessness". This a state in which the horse is taught that nothing he can do will release him from pain and fear, so he stops trying.
                              There are quite a few traditional horse handling methods that are designed to create "learned helplessness": for example, tie the horse's head to his stirrup for an hour, or tie him out in the hot sun on a short rope for hours on end.
                              Even our terminology admits that is what some people try to do to horses: we "break" them.

                              So basic, non-abusive traditional horse handling and training methods are violent. Most horses simply "get broke" and stop doing much at all around humans unless given orders to do something. They are broken.
                              Some animals don't, and they fight back. Which is what this mare is doing. And the owner responds with escalation of the violence, and you're trapped in a physical fight with a huge, dangerous animal who is out to get you before you get her. It's stupid and very avoidable.

                              Violence begets violence. Several studies have shown that animal trainers who use the paradigm of "dominance" to train animals are much more likely to end up with animals who are violent towards humans and exhibit behavioral problems. Trainers who don't feel the need to be "dominant" and instead just go about training using behavioral modification are much more likely to end up with peaceful, non-violent animals without behavioral problems. Children raised in an atmosphere of violence- spankings, intimidation, bullying- tend to grow up to be violent themselves. Violence begets violence.

                              You see the effects of the violence directed against horses all the time, you just think it's normal. Go to any barn, and if you hang out and watch, you'll see a level of on-going violence that is rather disturbing to see in what should be well-behaved, well-trained animals. Horses turning their butts to threaten to kick anyone coming into their stall. Horses biting at people trying to saddle them. People arming themselves with pitchforks and whips before approaching horses. This is fallout from the violence people choose to direct against horses in the name of training. The people are violent towards the horses, so the horses are violent towards the people, so the people are violent towards the horses.

                              There are better ways to train animals that don't require you to intimidate, bully, whip, shank, or "discipline" the animal.
                              You don't have to be "dominant" over an animal in order to train or handle the animal, you just have to train the animal using established methods of behavioral modification.
                              It's probably too late for this particular mare, she might have to be put down for everyone's safety, but possibly not.
                              Escalating the violence against the mare is very unlikely to be successful, she'll just fight back all the harder. Unless you actually DO manage to "break" her. In which case it would have been kinder to just put her down.

                              I'm guessing you don't actually own a horse and most likely have never even worked around one from the sounds of it. Have fun sipping your koolaid.
                              "You'll never see yourself in the mirror with your eyes closed"

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by oliverreed View Post
                                I agree!! I have never seen anything like this, ever, anywhere I have boarded.
                                Same here. I'd leave if I did.

                                So basic, non-abusive traditional horse handling and training methods are violent. Most horses simply "get broke" and stop doing much at all around humans unless given orders to do something. They are broken.
                                Some animals don't, and they fight back. Which is what this mare is doing. And the owner responds with escalation of the violence, and you're trapped in a physical fight with a huge, dangerous animal who is out to get you before you get her.
                                Not tracking with this either. I have a horse that needs a firm, consistent hand or he will take over. I certainly don't beat on him, but he knows the rules and gets in trouble when he breaks or even bends one. That can mean a bump with my elbow, a growl or a good WHACK with whatever I have handy, depending on the transgression. This horse constantly pushes the boundaries. It's just a game with him but you cannot give him an INCH or he will take the proverbial mile.

                                As far as why people put up with horses that have ummm ... habits, it's just a personal choice. I wouldn't trade my horse for any in the world. He can be a pain in the ass, but he's smart and confident. He's fun to ride and I love him. For other people, his constant multi-tasking and world domination plotting would drive them crazy. To each his/her own.
                                __________________________
                                "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                                the best day in ten years,
                                you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Kwill View Post
                                  And the thread takes a bizarre turn.


                                  This ^^^^^^^

                                  Running for the microwave popcorn!!!!!!!!

                                  Where is my boxed wine?

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Dear Wendy:

                                    WTFruitbat??!?!?

                                    I'm another one curious about where you are seeing all this violence and thinking your perception is mightily skewed.

                                    Trust me, I can get obedient behavior from both my 12h Hackney & my 17h+ WB as well as from every horse I've ever owned or worked with without anything even approaching the crack-dream you describe.
                                    In most cases just my tone of voice or The Look is all it takes.
                                    *friend of bar.ka*RIP all my lovely boys, gone too soon:
                                    Steppin' Out 1988-2004
                                    Hey Vern! 1982-2009, Cash's Bay Threat 1994-2009
                                    Sam(Jaybee Altair) 1994-2015

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by wendy View Post
                                      most traditional ways of handling horses are extremely violent and forceful, and "discipline" is always an act of violence. Anyone who talks about convincing the animal that you are "dominant" or "the alpha" is talking about using violence or threats of violence against the animal to intimidate and bully the animal into not-behaving or not-reacting.
                                      I shortened the whole post . .



                                      Why do I hear the music from the movie "The Sound of Music" when I read the above?

                                      The hillllllls are alivvvveee with the sound of muuuuusic . . . . la la la laaaaaaaaa".

                                      And in the back ground I spy Rainbow Pony farting butterflies.

                                      I have seen many horses laid down, and I saw no violence from the handler or horse. Well the horse did protest some, but the handler was not mean at ALL.

                                      2Dogs yes, she is describing something from a weird dream and made up scenario.

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                                      • #59
                                        When an qualified equine professional, which TR is, lays a horse down it's not remotely "violent"...

                                        as to the rest of all that noise, I have not the energy or time to sort through it.
                                        “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey

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                                        • #60
                                          I always wonder, when someone posts all about how "violence begets violence" etc etc and so forth, what exactly is a person SUPPOSED TO DO when, say, a horse tries to push past them or kick them or threaten them in some way.

                                          Say, "No, dearest?"

                                          The answer is always, "Well, if the horse is handled properly..."

                                          But the whole point is, inevitably, you have to meet every horse FOR THE FIRST TIME. You can not control how the horse was handled BEFORE IT MET YOU.

                                          So.
                                          Someone has brought Wendy a horse to train, and upon unloading it from the trailer, it tries to bolt forward past the leadrope and kick back at her.

                                          How specifically does Wendy handle this situation?

                                          I for one would have that horse briskly popped with the chain shank a couple times and whacked on the offending leg so it steps AWAY from me, but this would apparently be "violence begetting violence" so I'm all ears for alternatives.
                                          The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                          Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                          Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                          The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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