Friend is at wit's end with insanely mean mare

[crosscreeksh]

What in the world would motivate an owner to keep a horse so mean/dangerous?? Love, affection, great show results?? Doesn't sound like a horse that I would want to feed for a single day. At eight years of age she is probably set in her ways....reguardless of the reason.

[Bluey]

We choose to "live with it" because once under saddle he is pretty darn close to perfect- He will happily tote a rank beginner, be a fun ride for an advanced rider, tackle any obstacle, safely navigate any mountain trail, etc. We know his quirks and his triggers and done the best to fix what is fixable and live with the rest. Personally I would much rather deal with an SOB on the ground than an SOB to ride.

I thought this was a mare, now a he?

No, you don't need to work or ride with dangerous horses, either one is foolish.

That horse, according to the first story, is not a good competition horse, because the owner is afraid to compete with it, so that it is a competition star is questionable anyway.

No one will live with an abusive person but those that don't have much sense, why an abusive horse?

Whatever is going on there, that is not the right horse for that owner and circumstances.

Someone else may get along with that horse fine, maybe the horse is truly over the top aggressive, either way, that doesn't seem to be a safe or sensible situation.

[My3Sons]

I knew a mare who had a brain tumor and displayed similar behavior

[Ambitious Kate]

The techniques the OP describes reinforce the mare's understanding that she dominates the owner, and the owner has not done the mare any favors by not learning how to enforce rules and boundaries, has in effect created this monster. Horses with dominant personalities cannot be allowed one step out of line, and owners who don't know how enforce correct boundaries end up with a dangerous 1200 pound dominant animal.

If the owner doesn't get some correct training for both herself and the mare, she should put the mare down. And no, Natural Horsemanship is not the correct training for this horse.

[2boys]

[QUOTE=Bluey;6395579]I thought this was a mare, now a he?[QUOTE]

Tabulah rashah responded to the op with a similar story about a gelding. The op is still a mare.

[happyfeet]

I thought this was a mare, now a he?

It's two different horses. The OP's is a mare.

[SLW]

Kicking = lack of respect. Whether or not anyone can stop this established, dangerous vice with this mare remains unknown. Since it is escalating- twice in the past week- someone is going to get hurt badly, sooner rather than later.

The only caveat is we can't see how your friend works around the horse. It could be as simple as weak, dreamy eyed owner + strong horse or as sad as a dangerous horse. Me, I would euthanize or unload the horse to a select few people with full disclosure.

[D Taylor]

How does this mare treat other horses in turnout?

Is she mean, nasty and abusive to them?

Has she ever been turnout with a herd alpha matron and had her clock cleaned for being a nasty, disrepectful "female dog"? If yes, did she repeat her behavior or did she learn respect and manners around the herd matron?

How a horse behaves in a herd says a lot about how far they are willing to push bad behavior with humans.

[mbm]

i would say after rereading, that the owner has created this horse from just uneducated training.

this horse needs to be handled by folks that know what they are doing - not natural horsemanship - but a real horseman.... because now it is to the point that the horse is dangerous.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=2boys;6395614][QUOTE=Bluey;6395579]I thought this was a mare, now a he?

Tabulah rashah responded to the op with a similar story about a gelding. The op is still a mare.

It's two different horses. The OP's is a mare.

Thanks, that makes more sense now.

As the recipient of such horses to retrain, after some owners "train" them, I feel sorry for all, the horse and owner, that are trying hard to like a horse that is not suitable for them.

I have offered free lessons after I get a horse working well, but generally the owners don't think it is them, so are not interested.

For those, I finally learned to say I didn't have the time, was full, whatever, as retraining and sending the horse back into the same situation is not helping anyone.

Now, some of those horses are really rank, bad actors.
Innate or learned those behaviors may be, there is a limit to what we should try with them.

[meupatdoes]

Two suggestions:

1. Cock.
2. Boom!

[tabula rashah]

Whatever is going on there, that is not the right horse for that owner and circumstances.

Someone else may get along with that horse fine, maybe the horse is truly over the top aggressive, either way, that doesn't seem to be a safe or sensible situation.

That's not really for you to judge is it? We (as in my friend and I who are the only people who handle the horse on the ground) are comfortable with how he currently is. He is 13 now and she's had him for 13 years. I'm guessing you think I am a backyard, knows nothing boob but I am quite equipped to handle this horse. Everyone has their things they will put up with ( I read threads on the menagerie forum all the time that people put up with animals who eliminate in the house and I think- wow that would so become an outside cat or dog- but you know what, not my house, not my choice) and we know that the good with this horse outweighs the bad. I would much rather deal with a horse that's jerk on the ground than a horse that's a jerk under saddle.

[ako]

I cannot imagine keeping a horse that would intentionally bite and drag me! That's mentally unstable behavior in my book. This horse needs some immediate retraining by a horse person with lots of experience with the troublesome types. If that doesnt work, I can't imagine this horse can be rehabbed or rehomed, but the current situation is just not tenable. I would agree with euth'ing before someone gets hurt even worse.

Call me old fashioned, I require that my horses actually like and somewhat respect me - or they learn to fake it pretty well.

[Aggie4Bar]

Personally I would much rather deal with an SOB on the ground than an SOB to ride.

That works when one stays on the horse.

The only horse I've encountered similar to what the OP describes attacked his rider during a clinic when she fell off. In the saddle, she was fine. They were jumping a small grid when she got popped out of the tack, and once she was on the ground, game on. He came at her striking with front feet, spinning and backing at her with both barrels... nasty. He's pushing up daisies now.

To the OP: If your friend is attached to the mare and willing to spend money, spay her. Ovary removal can be done standing and isn't that expensive (ballpark $1200). There is no guarantee whatsoever that it will change the behavior. If it doesn't, euthanasia isn't unkind.

[Bluey]

That's not really for you to judge is it? We (as in my friend and I who are the only people who handle the horse on the ground) are comfortable with how he currently is. He is 13 now and she's had him for 13 years. I'm guessing you think I am a backyard, knows nothing boob but I am quite equipped to handle this horse. Everyone has their things they will put up with ( I read threads on the menagerie forum all the time that people put up with animals who eliminate in the house and I think- wow that would so become an outside cat or dog- but you know what, not my house, not my choice) and we know that the good with this horse outweighs the bad. I would much rather deal with a horse that's jerk on the ground than a horse that's a jerk under saddle.

Not really judging, just offering one more opinion.
There is no way to know from some posts on the internet if someone is or not, as you say, "a know nothing boob".

I don't think that horse is like a dog that is inconveniently soiling in the house, more like one that is attacking anyone that moves fast or tries to do anything with it.
An important difference in my opinion.

[LauraKY]

How does the mare behave for the trainer? How much turnout? Indivdual or with a herd? How does she behave in the herd? If she's been well behaved with someone else, then it looks like the problem is the owner and this isn't the right horse for her. If the horse behaves this way with everyone and everywhere...well then, there are too many nice horses out there to be screwing around with one that is dangerous.

My daughter's first horse was a rank QH (we still own him). His previous owner's husband hates him, won't even allow him back on the property. His previous owner and my daughter love him. I'm pretty fond of him too. If you show you're afraid, or you don't stay on top of him every single minute...if you let him get away with anything, watch out, so we keep a thumb on him at all times.

Around children and someone who is handicapped, he's an angel.

I'm setting a CD of his "finer" moments to music..."Don't Mess with Bill".

[SwampYankee]

Two suggestions:

1. Cock.
2. Boom!

Exactly! These kind you can't fix, and trying just isn't worth it. I used to think I could fix them, but whomever said there are too many nice ones out there had it just right.

It's not safe, let alone any fun, to be around a horse like that for any amateur--there is simply no point.

Send her to Valhalla with the rest of the Valkyries and find something that you can enjoy!

[2DogsFarm]

In unskilled hands, "natural horsemanship" is a really, really good way to spoil a horse and teach it to be a total bully. And if the natural tendency is already there, God help the amateur finger-shaker.

Sounds like the mare needs a "come to Jesus" with someone who is REALLY, TRULY, and GENUINELY EXPERT in handling and retraining a spoilt, aggressive horse. It might not be pretty, but the horse is worthless unless it can be handled safely. Cowboy time.

^
1000% agree with this

Sounds like the mare has S's number and she is not going to be the one to correct the behavior.

Saw this once with a timid rider who sold her Babysitter of an App for the Trainer's idea of a more suitable show horse: TB Mare.
Mare scared the heck out of rider from Day One - came in at her off the longeline, teeth bared.
They were NOT a good match and eventually mare was resold after rider broke her leg coming off AT THE WALK.

Tell S to get some professional help or move the horse on before she really gets hurt.
Or dead.

[RaeHughes]

OP - I apologise in advance for the length of this post.

Australia has lots of OTTB's available that are nice to handle and ride (even if they need a lot of flat training ). There is not a shortage of horses that WONT try and maim/kill you. As I live in NZ and know the racing industry in both countries - they are essentially the same - what is this mare's breeding? I may know the TB bloodlines and have other contacts within the industry and this may be a line-fault. Or have someone who knows how this line should be handled.

I dont think it is necessarily the end for this mare although that would certainly be a card up my sleeve. Before then, other than posting her blood-lines, I would:

(1) check what the mare is being fed - lucerne is a big bad no-no for most TBs here for example as it can cause them to get (1) do-lally and (2) have sore tums. Your friend may simply not be feeding her correctly.

(2) has the vet check for ulcers? quickest way, give the mare the ulcer-guard stuff without the full endoscoping and if she calms down, well she knows that the mare probably has/had ulcers and manage accordingly

(3) checked for spasmodic colic? this is not quite colic and is hard to describe. Essentially, if the mare's gut is tight, a little distended and/or sensitive to the touch, she may be suffering from this due to too much young rich grass or too rich a feed. Simplest way to check? Lock the mare up in a dry-lot or stable for 24 hours and feed 1/2 the normal amount of meadow hay - the poorer the hay the better as long as it is still okay. Ensure plenty of fresh clean water is available. This allows the stomach to settle down and get rid of the gases. Let her out for a period of 4-6 hours onto her normal grazing(10 is okay-ish) and then check what she is like. Repeat for comparison. If this is likely, you need to gradually add back in feed to see where the trigger point is. (Yes, this is experience writing - my old horse got spasmodic colic every spring/autumn and lived on this sort of regime. I dont know where you are but parts of Australia is coming out of a decade-long drought and it may be that this mare has never really experienced good grass.)

(4) If not the above, get a good trainer to give the horse a CTJ moment - if you were living in NZ, I would strongly recommend my horse-breaker as he is honest as to what a horse is like and a brillant kind horseman.

(5) Decide whether she does or doesnt want to continue with this horse. If not, well there is nothing wrong with euthanasia and a lot wrong with passing a problem on.

Good luck to you both.

[Snowflake]

Exactly! These kind you can't fix, and trying just isn't worth it.

I don't agree with this. I had a mare that was very much as described in the OP. She was 8 years old and had been through 7 homes because she was simply evil incarnate. I got her from a woman who, I found out after the fact, was terrified of her.

She was just plain nasty on the ground but really a peach to ride. We had a few explosive CTJ moments but what she really needed to learn that I did not tolerate her BS. One step out of line resulted in me sprouting an extra head and becoming the scariest monster she's ever encountered. And I always had to be prepared - there was no "going to get the whip" as in your friends case. I had the whip in my hand and I was always ready to use it. I couldn't let my guard down for a moment and any punishment had to be immediate, hard and fast.

It took about a good 3 months before things really sunk in that a.) she wasn't going anywhere and being shuffled off to the next unsuspecting person and b.) I was always one step ahead of her. I think after that she relaxed quite a bit and stopped needed to put on a show. She got the fact that she wasn't tougher or smarter than me and there was no point in trying to prove any different. Had she gone to a less experienced horse person, I know she would have the real potential to hurt someone and probably severely. In that case, I think it would have been in her best interest to put her down.

I've owned this mare 11 years now and will never sell her considering her past. I don't want to run the risk of her ever reverting back to that horse again. She's in a good place and is a wonderful horse. But, I would have to ask your friend if she's willing to make that level of commitment for this mare. If she can't, then it's much fairer to put her down.