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Fella is turning out to be a very reactive horse

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  • Fella is turning out to be a very reactive horse

    Fella,

    My percheron/standarbred boy loves me. I can do anything with this horse...on the ground. He's been in training with a woman whom I trust for her ability (she has stallions). As he's settled in to her barn, settled in for good feed and fine horsey friends he is becoming more and more reactive.

    He was always looky and a bit spooky, but he was a spook in place kind of fellow. He spooks at everything now and tries to get in your lap. He's knocked her down and one of her working students. In both situations he's spooked at something like a halter on the gate or something similarly horse eating.

    I rode him at the other barn, but even there he was starting to get a grain head so he was on low starch. He was not as reactive then, and even now with me it's like I'm his person.

    I'm going to take him out of training and try a calming supplement, but I'm having a problem here. I want a horse that I can throw on a trailer and go camping, trail riding, eventing, dressage(ing) or whatever suits me.

    We'll see what happens with the supplements, but I am feeling quite pessimistic about this.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

  • #2
    I have TBs, which can be very reactive too. Is he a young horse? It seems some go through this sort of "teenage" thing when they are at the -broke, but still really green- stage.

    I've foung that 24 hour turn out and consistent riding throughout the week helps my guys.

    Are you using any new supplements or feeds?

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      He's 11 years old. He is stalled at night, but turned out all day. I just talked to his previous owner and found out he was always hot but not as spooky as he is. I can deal with hot, it's the crazy that's getting on everybody's nerves. She said she used "Calm and Cool" supplement for a bit. I'm consulting with our vet this morning and will give a supplement a try.

      The feed is pretty potent at this barn -the Purina line- so we may have to change that.

      Paula
      He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm curious:
        What does your current BO do to address the behavior?
        You say she has stallions, so I'd imagine she's adept at handling reactivity (is that even a word?).

        Of the 5 horses I've owned, all but one have been reactive to start with.
        But I've learned that keeping an eye open and reacting quickly yourself along with tons & tons of patience works to calm them down.
        My latest - a Hackney pony - has taken 2 years to go from WildThing to a PocketPony.
        Time is my BFF

        If Fella is ignoring the space of his ground person then that needs to be addressed ASAP - they are just TOO Big to intrude on that, no matter how scary the World is to them.

        I think you're on the right track looking suspiciously at a high energy feed.
        Cutting back on that might be all the help you need.
        *friend of bar.ka*RIP all my lovely boys, gone too soon:
        Steppin' Out 1988-2004
        Hey Vern! 1982-2009, Cash's Bay Threat 1994-2009
        Sam(Jaybee Altair) 1994-2015

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          I'm feeling a lot less frantic today. He came with a personal space problem that has been getting much better. Unfortunately animals -man and beast -stop thinking when they're reactive. I think we need to modify our behavior with him -for instance, we can't take him out to the field with someone else in your other hand. He's not reliable that way. Our attention needs to be on him.

          I'm switching him back to Triple Crown L S - Purina Ultium is too hot for him. I'm going to put him on a calming supplement, and I've been reading about magnesium deficiency and he is in just about the right environment for that to be an issue -on grass, late spring, in work. And symptoms of magnesium deficiency include nervousness.

          Paula
          He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
            Fella,

            My percheron/standarbred boy loves me. I can do anything with this horse...on the ground. He's been in training with a woman whom I trust for her ability (she has stallions). As he's settled in to her barn, settled in for good feed and fine horsey friends he is becoming more and more reactive.

            He was always looky and a bit spooky, but he was a spook in place kind of fellow. He spooks at everything now and tries to get in your lap. He's knocked her down and one of her working students. In both situations he's spooked at something like a halter on the gate or something similarly horse eating.

            I rode him at the other barn, but even there he was starting to get a grain head so he was on low starch. He was not as reactive then, and even now with me it's like I'm his person.

            I'm going to take him out of training and try a calming supplement, but I'm having a problem here. I want a horse that I can throw on a trailer and go camping, trail riding, eventing, dressage(ing) or whatever suits me.

            We'll see what happens with the supplements, but I am feeling quite pessimistic about this.

            Paula
            Sounds like he is not the horse for what you want.

            Be careful while trying to work thru his quirks, don't get hurt or get others hurt while you try to sort them out.

            Sounds like, at his age, his escalating jumpiness, if that is getting worse, may have an answer that you may address with different management.

            Right now, his problems are a safety concern for all, as you say, maybe not the best horse for you after all.

            I got a horse not to long ago that was wonderful in everything, an excellent fit for me, very sweet and a beautiful horse to boot.

            He was also very reactive, way too much for a mature, well trained horse.
            He needs a stronger rider than I am now, with my heart problems that makes me dizzy and we don't seem to be able to control well.

            At different times in our lives we need a different type of horse and should be smart enough to listen when the little voice in our ear is saying this is not a good idea.

            Your horse may have a simple problem like the wrong kind of trace minerals for best function, run blood analysis, thyroid test also.

            Or that may be just who your horse is, some are wired more tight than others and then, if he is too much, you may be right, he may not be the right horse for what you need right now after all.

            Stay safe.

            Edited to add just read your last post, sounds like a good plan.

            Comment


            • #7
              My morgan, while hottish, was also unnecessarily spooky for the first 18 months I owned him. All the despooking training in the world did nothing for him. He'd settle down at the end of a school but the next day be right back to the beginning again. It was like living the movie Groundhog Day, he just could not retain his training for more than 24 hours.

              I put him on Quiessence which helped a wee bit, and he got no grain, just RB and beet pulp at the time. He lived outside for most of that time and had hay 24/7. He was a picture of health, great appetite.

              Searching for reasons for his extreme overreactiveness (he too would jump in your lap and knock you down on the process) a wise COTHer suggested possibly ulcers. I thought the suggestion was crazy, he had none of the typical ulcer indications, but I was desperate, he was climbing walls, breaking fences, constantly having panic attacks, and just miserable to be around.

              I treated him for ulcers (I used calcium bentonite, I didn't have the pocketbook for gastro guard) and 6-8 weeks later I had a completely different horse and never looked back.
              Being terrible at something is the first step to being truly great at it. Struggle is the evidence of progress.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                I never considered ulcers. We'll ask the vet about that as well. We'll just treat the heck out of him and see what happens!

                Safety is important. Regardless of what treatment is used, he can't be knocking people down because he's freaking out about something. We're going to have to set up some rules about his handling while we're waiting to see the outcome of these regimens. For example, he needs to be taken out to the field by himself so you can focus on his behavior (as opposed to taking out a couple of horses at a time).

                Paula
                He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                Comment


                • #9
                  A couple things stood out:

                  You trust her ability because she has stallions. I don't know you or this person, and absolutely not trying to ruffle feathers, assuming/hoping you're basing your faith on more than just that fact. I've met a couple stallion owners who (obviously) had stallions, could even manage to handle them safely 80% of the time, but I wouldn't exactly say I had faith in their abilities. There could be something inadvertently bringing out more exaggerated 'upness' in your particular horse. I have 4 horses here at home. I have the same expectation of behavior out of all of them, but go about getting it in 4 very different ways depending on the individual's 'needs' (IE: quiet and firm with the sensitive ones)

                  Also, if she has a staff, it may not be her ability that's an issue at all.

                  He's settled in to good food. WHAT food? Same as he's always been on or just comparable?

                  Is he insecure by nature?

                  Were there any other changes?

                  Are you dead set on sticking in through the long haul in the off chance that all the diet, supplement, environmental accommodation/changes in the world may not improve anything?

                  He's more spooky/easily startled...is this happening in the kind of way it could possibly be a vision issue? (trying to cover all bases for you, hadn't seen that one thrown out there for consideration yet)

                  You said with you it's still like you're 'his person'. What is different about your mannerisms when you handle him than when others do?
                  Owned by a Paint/TB and an OTTB.
                  RIP Scoutin' For Trouble ~ 2011 at 10
                  RIP Tasha's Last Tango ~ 2010 at ~23
                  RIP In Sha' Allah ~ 2009 too young at 5

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Is 24/7 turnout an option at your barn? That usually helps to take the edge off.

                    Does he really need grain? Maybe he would do just as well with a ration balancer or a supplement in a handful of beet pulp.

                    Is he on a consistent work schedule? Some horses really just need a good 5-6 days a week to keep a level head.

                    Good luck with him.
                    Jigga:
                    Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      What I've learned.

                      1. Previous owner used Natural horsemanship. That's not really the kind of horse I set out to buy, but it is what it is. We'll just have to de-program.

                      2. His food is actually not Purina Ultium, he's on a senior so it's probably not food. We're going to do the supplementing and see what happens.

                      3. I'm his person -he comes to me in the field. I groom him in the field with his buddies out there. Apparently he is not so forthcoming with everybody else. I get horse hugs. I gave him his strangles booster (nasal cannula) without restraints. We have rapport that I value a great deal.

                      4. I did consider things like vision -it's important to do this. I've been trained to always rule out physical. I do not think it's vision -we do have a vet consult this morning -but he had a great physical a few months ago.

                      I'm feeling much less pessimistic today. I don't have a problem with heat, I do have a problem with crazy. We need to treat the crazy.

                      Paula
                      He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Glad you're feeling less pessimistic Good luck with the consult, keep us posted!

                        And, if it helps bolster confidence some more, His Haffyness was the uber spookmeister so hyper reactive I wondered if his feed wasn't laced with cracstacy, it took two years of consistent handling and patience but now he's a teddy bear my kids can catch and handle (with supervision, of course) with ease. He still has his moments, but few and far between and nowhere near as dramatic.

                        ETA: The bubble thing...a lot of 'well meaning' NH types blow the "This is my dance space, this is your dance space." thing with overindulging on the touchy feely side of it. It's still a horse, not a labrador, and even a lab is too big to be in your lap!
                        Owned by a Paint/TB and an OTTB.
                        RIP Scoutin' For Trouble ~ 2011 at 10
                        RIP Tasha's Last Tango ~ 2010 at ~23
                        RIP In Sha' Allah ~ 2009 too young at 5

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Some horses are just more reactive than others. Trust me, as owner of a red ASB mare, I know this.

                          However, there are things you can do to improve his spookiness...though 11 is a bit up there to still be regularly spooking at harmless everyday things.

                          Absolutely only lead him by himself and not with a buddy. You (or them) are just asking for an accident with multiple horses at the same time.

                          I've found (at least with my mare) that not making a big deal of the spook is key. Make him stand still, calm down, and look at whatever the offending object is. Take him past it a time or two. He'll figure out it's not going to eat him.

                          The exception to the above is spooking into the handler's personal space, especially to the point of knocking them down. Not acceptable, no way, no how. Very dangerous. He needs a Come to Jesus meeting when that happens. Put a chain on him and carry a dressage whip. Seriously. He has to understand that he cannot do that. After the meeting, pat him and go back to calmly introducing him to the offending object.
                          Caitlin
                          *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                          http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Cracstacy! LOL! The bubble thing. I don't have any issues with training that works and is humane. I think my sigh (and my trainer's sigh of frustration) is that NH is difficult to do correctly. Of all the training techniques out there, it's like CT (clicker training). I love CT, I understand CT, but if you don't understand CT or your timing isn't good you can create a real PITA. So we understand his personal space issues alot better now.

                            I am not in a hurry -I am happy to take my time as long as there is hope and people remain safe. Safety becomes the most important concern at this stage.

                            ETA: Redmare, I just read your post. I think calm and confidence are indeed the orders of the day. This is probably why I don't have an issue with him when I'm leading him? I got that habit of not feeding the fire (on the ground at least -on horseback I haven't quite perfected sitting chilly) from dog training perhaps.

                            But quite right; more caution. Leading him by himself for now is a good strategy. Nobody needs to get hurt.

                            Paula
                            He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Having dealt w/ a bloodline of spookiness (mare and her two boys) - I will offer my one tip for dealing w/ spooky horses - always have the attitude of "I will TELL you what you need to spook at. Anything else, you're just being silly". My TBs are very vigilant and aware - tall grass blowing or barn swallows swooping or the barn cat a pasture away... If they spook or are worrisome about something and I pet them, tell them they are ok, etc for finding something to jump about - they honestly seem to start looking for more things to "tell me about". I SWEAR. So, I would advise not rewarding him for his silliness. Just go about what you are doing/riding/ etc as if nothing has happened...

                              along w/ diet changes, ulcers, etc.... all very good advice

                              Just my 0.02 cents.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                                I'm feeling a lot less frantic today. He came with a personal space problem that has been getting much better. Unfortunately animals -man and beast -stop thinking when they're reactive. I think we need to modify our behavior with him -for instance, we can't take him out to the field with someone else in your other hand. He's not reliable that way. Our attention needs to be on him.

                                I'm switching him back to Triple Crown L S - Purina Ultium is too hot for him. I'm going to put him on a calming supplement, and I've been reading about magnesium deficiency and he is in just about the right environment for that to be an issue -on grass, late spring, in work. And symptoms of magnesium deficiency include nervousness.

                                Paula
                                There are two things I am a safety fanatic about and this is one of them. It's oh so tempting to lead more than one horse at a time but it is an accident waiting to happen. Just don't
                                There are two reasons for this. The handler has little chance of controlling the situation if one of the horses acts up. And NO chance if both of them act up. The second reason is that the handler needs to be paying attention to the horse and the horse needs to be paying to the handler....not a second horse. Don't add a distraction into the mix.

                                As much as I dislike Parelli and their brand of "Natural Horsemanship" some natural horsemanship techniques are valuable. I prefer Clinton Anderson myself but he by no means has a unique system. When you lead a horse who is "using the reacting side of his brain (acting like a prey animal)" don't just meander from point A to point B. It's a training opportunity. Insist that the horse pay attention to the handler, not the environment. Halt. Back up. Circle. Yield the hindquarters. Go 10 steps forward reverse and go 5 steps back. It might take 3 times as long to get someplace but sometimes you have to take the time and do the work.

                                And yup, the P/CA style stick, halter and lead are handy bits of equiptment for this situation.
                                I wasn't always a Smurf
                                Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                                "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                                The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I would try some yeast also, I use Select GH and have noticed all my guys are considerably calmer. I don't know WHY, only that there has been a big change. It's cheap too.
                                  https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    You're right; he needs to be working all the time. Mental occupation gives less time to find things to freak out about. It's like we know what we're dealing with now.

                                    Paula
                                    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      You can train reactivity out of a horse (replacing it with responsiveness) or you can train it into a horse.

                                      The former happens with purposeful deliberation and the latter usually happens unconsciously.

                                      In the former, you "push" a horse to accept pressure. If he doesn't like one end of the arena, you matter of factly decide you only want to school there.
                                      The person who trains reactivity into the horse avoids that area of the ring because he doesn't like it.

                                      If he scoots and spins and startles out of the canter, you just keep going. No walk break, no "let's recollect ourselves" just, "Hey, I don't even care, we're cantering."
                                      The person who trains reactivity into the horse takes a minute until he settles down and feels comfortable again.


                                      Anytime the horse feels he has reached his limit and resists or tries to take over, the rider, without escalating, stays firm and says, "No, you need to ACCEPT my ride." When he does, pat pat.
                                      The person who trains reactivity into the horse wants nothing to do with riding a horse that is very close to or at his limit and stays very far away from that limit to be on the safe side.


                                      I don't think taking him out of training is the answer.
                                      Usually non-pros do not have the timing or confidence to deliberately, firmly, but fairly push a horse TO his limit (but not over) until he accepts life in that comfort zone and thereby moves his limit out that next little bit further.
                                      The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                      Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                      Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                      The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        We're reconsidering taking him out of training. That was the decision last night and then we both apparently didn't sleep (I didn't go to bed until about 2 and I was up at 6 -today is gonna suck). The aha moment came with my correspondence with his owner, and provided the consult with the vet goes well, he should stay in training -at least that is our intent at this stage.

                                        Isn't it amazing how we're all pretty much on the same page with this horse?

                                        Paula
                                        He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

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