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Fella is turning out to be a very reactive horse

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  • #41
    Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
    [Less grain, more turnout, calming supplements, that's fine and dandy, but honestly I think you are just going to have to do the work.
    The only thing that makes me think it might be the food/turnout situation is that she said in the OP that he wasn't always like this.

    If he were mine, I'd take him off all grain and put him on 24/7 turnout, as has been suggested. And then I'd re-evaluate what is going on with your trainer and her staff and why they are having such a problem with him.

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    • #42
      He's probably a sweet guy and the trainer/staff are not really paying much attention to what's going on in his head -- and the bad habits are cropping up as a result.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
        1. Previous owner used Natural horsemanship. That's not really the kind of horse I set out to buy, but it is what it is. We'll just have to de-program.
        You've had this horse for quite awhile. I would think any issues with NH training vs. the kind of horse you want would be long gone. Or at least, you'd have uncovered them before now.

        3. I'm his person -he comes to me in the field. I groom him in the field with his buddies out there. Apparently he is not so forthcoming with everybody else. I get horse hugs. I gave him his strangles booster (nasal cannula) without restraints. We have rapport that I value a great deal.
        So he only does the knockdown spooks with other people and not you? What is he like when you ride him? Being able to do groundwork with a horse is good, but the key is translating it to saddle work. Otherwise, it's ummm ... natural horsemanship.

        4. I did consider things like vision -it's important to do this. I've been trained to always rule out physical. I do not think it's vision -we do have a vet consult this morning -but he had a great physical a few months ago.
        I'm all for eliminating the physical, but I'm thinking, unless ulcers are a possibility, then it's more of a human-induced problem.

        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
        You can train reactivity out of a horse (replacing it with responsiveness) or you can train it into a horse.

        The former happens with purposeful deliberation and the latter usually happens unconsciously.

        In the former, you "push" a horse to accept pressure. If he doesn't like one end of the arena, you matter of factly decide you only want to school there.
        The person who trains reactivity into the horse avoids that area of the ring because he doesn't like it.

        If he scoots and spins and startles out of the canter, you just keep going. No walk break, no "let's recollect ourselves" just, "Hey, I don't even care, we're cantering."
        The person who trains reactivity into the horse takes a minute until he settles down and feels comfortable again.


        Anytime the horse feels he has reached his limit and resists or tries to take over, the rider, without escalating, stays firm and says, "No, you need to ACCEPT my ride." When he does, pat pat.
        The person who trains reactivity into the horse wants nothing to do with riding a horse that is very close to or at his limit and stays very far away from that limit to be on the safe side.


        I don't think taking him out of training is the answer.
        Usually non-pros do not have the timing or confidence to deliberately, firmly, but fairly push a horse TO his limit (but not over) until he accepts life in that comfort zone and thereby moves his limit out that next little bit further.
        This. I think you need a new trainer.
        __________________________
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        the best day in ten years,
        you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

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        • Original Poster

          #44
          THIS THIS THIS

          Sounds like he has a complete lack of respect for people -- he's taking care of himself, and paying absolutely no attention to the handler.

          You nailed it! We diagnosed this about Fella a while ago. He is a very intelligent horse and somewhere along the line this prey animal figured he could only rely on himself. I know that sounds anthropomorphic, but you've got him dead to rights.

          So he doesn't act up for me because I'm the boss of him. No beatings or bullying, but maybe it's because I've had a pack of Rhodesian Ridgebacks (down to one) for the last 15 years? I can channel boss. So as with beta dogs, convince him that you can take care of the both of you and he relaxes. Still, you need him to mind even with other people, but maybe the working students -as are many people -are a bit intimidated by his size so they're not really the boss of him?

          You know what? He was like this with the BO at my boarding barn (the barn previous to this training barn). I am just thinking about that now. She would say he was tense and jiggy to be lead out, and spooked at stuff, and I didn't understand what she was saying because when I was doing this stuff -leading him out -he was not that horse. I was there 4 days a week helping out. In fact once she was driving off and I was leading him out and she stopped to remark how relaxed he was, like a different horse. So I guess he has been a pill since I got him and I am just putting that together. He's worse now because I think he's happier!


          Paula
          He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

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          • #45
            More proof of needing a different trainer.
            McDowell Racing Stables

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            • #46
              Originally posted by Heinz 57 View Post
              The only thing that makes me think it might be the food/turnout situation is that she said in the OP that he wasn't always like this.

              If he were mine, I'd take him off all grain and put him on 24/7 turnout, as has been suggested. And then I'd re-evaluate what is going on with your trainer and her staff and why they are having such a problem with him.
              He may have been "like this" but presenting with very subtle, small signs leading up to this behavior. Because it was small, it was potentially overlooked and then blatantly allowed by the barn workers/trainer. And now it has escalated.

              How many times have you seen a horse acting a fool at a show and the owner says "Well he never does this at home?" Yeah, he does -- just not on such a grand scale with a big audience.

              Get his eyes checked. If they are ok, go back to the basics with lots of groundwork.
              Last edited by bluemooncowgirl; Jun. 20, 2012, 11:18 AM. Reason: took owner out of equation
              Alis volat propriis.

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              • #47
                I would:

                Change his handling - absolutely no two-at-a-time leading. That's crazy. He's getting away with crap that is creeping into every other human interaction. And if the trainer thinks this handling is working for your horse, I would have to take a hard look at the trainer.

                Lower his food intake - especially the NSC level. If Purina is your barn's choice, try Wellsolve LS.

                Check for cataracts - He may have been used to the previous barn, but now can't see well enough to settle into the new barn.

                Treat for ulcers - the Abler 700 product from Abler.com (previously omeprazoledirect - the famous Blue Pop Rocks) about $5 per day for treatment.

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                • #48
                  Paula, we were posting at the same time. I have edited my post to take out your role because it sounds like the problem is with the trainer/barn workers who are neglecting to notice the signs of Fella asserting his "Fella-ness".
                  Alis volat propriis.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Why does, "He wasn't always like this" only work one way?

                    One of the horses I ride "wasn't always like this." He used to spin like a top through the arena everytime the slightest thing set him off, balk at going past stuff he didn't like, etc. He wasn't a bad horse, he was just very reactive.

                    Now he goes to new places with no ear plugs, no drugs, no longe and does his job confidently and pleasantly.
                    He wasn't always like this.


                    If the trainer can not lead this horse past a halter without getting run over, but the paying client has no problems with the horse...
                    ...sometimes if you SEE the results, let them speak for themselves.
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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post

                      If the trainer can not lead this horse past a halter without getting run over, but the paying client has no problems with the horse...
                      ...sometimes if you SEE the results, let them speak for themselves.
                      This is exactly what speaks the loudest about the whole situation.

                      Yes, check him out for health stuff and fiddle with your feed if you'd like. Better safe than sorry, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that the above quote is where the real problem lies.
                      "Aye God, Woodrow..."

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                        If the trainer can not lead this horse past a halter without getting run over, but the paying client has no problems with the horse...
                        ...sometimes if you SEE the results, let them speak for themselves.
                        Originally posted by Long Spot View Post
                        This is exactly what speaks the loudest about the whole situation.
                        Everytime you handle a horse, you are training them. Your trainer has trained him to be overly reactive and run over people. Regardless of what else she has taught him to do, or how well she has done, this must be addressed.

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                        • #52
                          Firstly...as someone else said..Stop ALL grain, 24/7 turn out (in a "busy herd") change trainers!! He is old enough to get with the program!!!
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                          • #53
                            I'm also starting to wonder if the problem is with the trainer and her staff, especially given that this behavior has all come up since you moved him. When I was newer to the re-rider world, I was shocked at how "harsh" barn owners/trainers could be with horses. Those horses wouldn't think of running them over or knocking them down, and there's a reason for it.

                            These days, I'm better informed and realize just how much hard work can go into keeping a horse in line. My horse is better off for it. She does look at stuff, but she's no longer looking for an excuse to spook. Calming supplements help her, but only to a point. After that, it's really all in how I and others deal with her. (For the record, I don't force her into stuff, but I encourage her.)

                            Your trainer may be great for under saddle work but not so great on the ground. It happens, but my guess is that it's rare, because most trainers don't have the time to put up with a lot of BS from a horse. If that's the case, Fella may need to live somewhere else and either go to the trainer or have the trainer come to him.

                            Also agree with others -- why does he need grain at all? Pasture plus ration balancer would do it, probably, and be less crazy-making.
                            You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                            1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

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                            • #54
                              Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                              THIS He is a very intelligent horse and somewhere along the line this prey animal figured he could only rely on himself. I know that sounds anthropomorphic, but you've got him dead to rights.
                              More likely he figured out that he's big and can push people around. So he does.

                              I think you're cutting him too much slack and anthromorphizing. He's a horse that chooses when he has good ground manners based on how much he thinks he can get away with.

                              That has to stop or he will hurt someone. It sounds like he's already come close.

                              Personally, it sounds like the place where you have him now does not practice good handling skills. I've always hated barns that lead horses two or three at a time. It is a case of when an accident will occur, not if.
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                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Heinz 57 View Post
                                The only thing that makes me think it might be the food/turnout situation is that she said in the OP that he wasn't always like this.

                                If he were mine, I'd take him off all grain and put him on 24/7 turnout, as has been suggested. And then I'd re-evaluate what is going on with your trainer and her staff and why they are having such a problem with him.

                                Most of the 3 YO TB's made it to the track for the Triple Crown races with better manners than Fella seems to be exhibiting.

                                It could be the different situation but IMHO it is primarily a handling issue. The current trainer is taking dangerous short cuts and allowing her staff to do the same.
                                I wasn't always a Smurf
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                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Bogie View Post
                                  I've always hated barns that lead horses two or three at a time. It is a case of when an accident will occur, not if.
                                  The issue isn't leading two at a time. It's that at least ONE of the horses has no manners and the handler doesn't know what to do about it.

                                  The barn where I board routinely leads multiple horses at a time and I do it, too. But we know what we're doing. They wouldn't lead two horses together if one was prone to being an idiot. IMO that's a better situation than the inept handling the OP's horse is getting.

                                  ETA -- I wouldn't lead multiple horses if one had no manners either. But I don't handle other people's horses and MY horses know better than to get stupid with me.
                                  __________________________
                                  "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
                                  the best day in ten years,
                                  you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."

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                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
                                    Most of the 3 YO TB's made it to the track for the Triple Crown races with better manners than Fella seems to be exhibiting.

                                    It could be the different situation but IMHO it is primarily a handling issue. The current trainer is taking dangerous short cuts and allowing her staff to do the same.
                                    I still don't think it would be a bad idea to put him on 24/7 turnout and as little grain as possible, but then again, I think that would be beneficial for most horses, even well-mannered ones like my own, and it will do only GOOD in this situation, even if it doesn't turn out to be the primary contributing factor.

                                    If you'll note the last sentence of what you quoted, I *did* suggest looking further into why a "trainer" and her staff can't even lead a horse to pasture without getting knocked over.

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                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Bogie View Post
                                      More likely he figured out that he's big and can push people around. So he does.

                                      I think you're cutting him too much slack and anthromorphizing. He's a horse that chooses when he has good ground manners based on how much he thinks he can get away with.

                                      That has to stop or he will hurt someone. It sounds like he's already come close.

                                      Personally, it sounds like the place where you have him now does not practice good handling skills. I've always hated barns that lead horses two or three at a time. It is a case of when an accident will occur, not if.
                                      This exactly! I don't know all my horse's background and I don't really care. If she's acting like a jerk she gets her ass straightened out. I don't say "Oh, well she had a rough year when she was 4 so please pardon her jackassedness".

                                      I love my horse - but she's not a person!

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                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Heinz 57 View Post
                                        The only thing that makes me think it might be the food/turnout situation is that she said in the OP that he wasn't always like this.

                                        If he were mine, I'd take him off all grain and put him on 24/7 turnout, as has been suggested. And then I'd re-evaluate what is going on with your trainer and her staff and why they are having such a problem with him.


                                        Originally posted by paulaedwina View Post
                                        THIS THIS THIS

                                        Sounds like he has a complete lack of respect for people -- he's taking care of himself, and paying absolutely no attention to the handler.

                                        You nailed it! We diagnosed this about Fella a while ago. He is a very intelligent horse and somewhere along the line this prey animal figured he could only rely on himself. I know that sounds anthropomorphic, but you've got him dead to rights.

                                        So he doesn't act up for me because I'm the boss of him. No beatings or bullying, but maybe it's because I've had a pack of Rhodesian Ridgebacks (down to one) for the last 15 years? I can channel boss. So as with beta dogs, convince him that you can take care of the both of you and he relaxes. Still, you need him to mind even with other people, but maybe the working students -as are many people -are a bit intimidated by his size so they're not really the boss of him?

                                        You know what? He was like this with the BO at my boarding barn (the barn previous to this training barn). I am just thinking about that now. She would say he was tense and jiggy to be lead out, and spooked at stuff, and I didn't understand what she was saying because when I was doing this stuff -leading him out -he was not that horse. I was there 4 days a week helping out. In fact once she was driving off and I was leading him out and she stopped to remark how relaxed he was, like a different horse. So I guess he has been a pill since I got him and I am just putting that together. He's worse now because I think he's happier!


                                        Paula
                                        He is worse now because he's getting away with more and more as time goes on. I would bet that he is not happier being handled by people who cannot control him. IMO/E horses are happier when they know their place...like the dogs you speak of. They need a leader, and if they don't feel safe, bad behavior rears its ugly head.


                                        Paula, I am going to play devil's advocate here. It sounds like you keep making excuses for your horse's behavior (blaming NH) and your trainer's lack of ability. If Fella has behaved like this at other barns, He. Has. Problems. Take him off ALL grain, throw his ass in the pasture or lot or whatever 24/7, and make sure he's getting a GOOD workout 5-6 days a week. We all want to say our horse behaves better for us than other people for one reason or another. I'm sure you exude confidence, leadership, etc, but he needs to learn boundaries NOW, and those boundaries include everyone around him. Having a CTJ meeting is not abuse...it's self-preservation, and you can bet that if I was your trainer, we'd had one a long time ago.

                                        It also sounds like you've been hoodwinked by your trainer. If she can handle stallions, then a reactive gelding should be manageable. Clearly the situation is not getting better, but you are still paying her. Have a pow-wow with Trainer and her WS, and hammer out EXACTLY what you expect; how he will be handled, how many times he will be worked, NO grey areas of personal space for him to invade, etc. If they cannot do what needs to be done, then find a new trainer, and TELL HER that if you don't see improvements with his handling then you WILL move or find someone else to get the job done.

                                        Fella is old enough to not be spoiled and treated like a colt and his antics blamed on Factors A, B, and C. Get serious about fixing the problem, or continue to deal with a pushy, rude horse that WILL hurt someone eventually.

                                        I know all about hot horses. My Arab/QH is 10 going on 4, and is also reactive, but mostly under saddle. He spent nearly three years on a huge pasture with cows for mostly economic reasons, so when he got off the trailer in March he needed a refresher course on How You Will Behave because of habits he'd picked up from the farm owner. He is also a picker...her knows how to push my buttons, and finds it to be a game. However, he knows that if he ever knocks into me, whatever scared him will look like a kitten compared to me. Reactive horses keep you on your toes, but can also be fun. I'm never bored with this horse, and his energy level and work ethic are amazing. However, I do use a chain nearly every time I lead him, and under saddle I am constantly changing something to keep his mind on me. You have to adapt to what your horse needs, but he HAS to have manners and be safe.
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                                        • Original Poster

                                          #60
                                          I think you misunderstand me. I am looking for the reasons he behaves that way, not making excuses for the behavior. His behavior is not acceptable nor is it safe.

                                          Paula
                                          He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).

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