Fella is turning out to be a very reactive horse

[Laurierace]

You are on the same page about wanting to take him out of training and keep him in training? That doesn't even sound like the same book. I vote keep him in training but maybe with a different trainer. One that can help you and the horse.

[pondpony]

OP, you say he's getting a senior feed, and you say he's getting Purina. If he's getting Purina senior, he's getting about 14% protein. Feeding a pellet with 12% protein could make a difference in his behavior. Whatever he's eating, please don't write off his diet as having a role in his behavior.

[paulaedwina]

So you think it would still make difference to go back to Triple Crown LS?

Paula

[Laurierace]

I don't think protein has any impact on behavior but sugar certainly can.

[englishcowgirl]

Is he being worked enough? Five or six days a week for at least an hour will probably take care of the issue you are having. Have known several who get like this even with turn out.

[Bluey]

So you think it would still make difference to go back to Triple Crown LS?

Paula

I would try no grain, to rule out grain causing his exuberant energy or upset stomach.
If he calms down, then reintroduce slowly and see what happens.
Try not to change too many things, supplements, training and such, all at once, or you won't know what is effective if he becomes more focused.

[LauraKY]

Any interaction with a horse is training...for good or bad. Bringing two or three in at a time is an accident waiting to happen.

[ako]

I was going to pretty much echo a lot of the advice on here already:

1. Grain - change type and give less of it, potentially a lot less.

2. Calming supplement - these do work. I've used quiescence and quietex on different horses and it always helped. Always.

3. Turnout, as much as possible.

4. Consistent exercise program. Don't need to overdo it, just keep it regular. Maybe only give 1 day off in a row for awhile.

5. Check for ulcers

6. Consistent training on the ground

My gelding practically started breathing fire shortly after I got him. He was getting wayyyyy too much grain and not enough turnout. Now he's my BFF.

I think there's still A LOT you can do here to make a good riding horse.

[Bogie]

A low starch feed will often help with reactiveness. TC senior has an even lower starch level than the low starch feed. Too many calories might also be the problem. If he's an easy keeper, then maybe he needs just hay and a ration balancer. Ultium would not have been my choice of feed for a horse like you describe.

I have a red-headed TB who is very sensitive to starch and who can be quite reactive. My experience with him (and others over the years) is that:

1) Low starch/high fat works well for grain. And feed only enough to meet nutritional requirements unless your horse is a hard keeper.
2) Give them as much turnout as possible
3) Wet saddle blanket therapy is a remarkable calming agent. If I don't ride my horse consistently he gets very spooky and high. I make him work and I make him concentrate. Once he is focused on me and tired, he's much more pleasant to be around. How much actual work does your horse get? Clicker training is a good tool but slapping on a saddle and making a horse work hard for an hour or more is very beneficial. Some horses need a good gallop, some need a long walk, and others need to trot the whole time!
4) I have zero tolerance for bad behavior on the ground. My horses lead quietly, stand quietly and behave themselves or they get put to work immediately (not riled up by trying to punish them). It sounds like the handling your horse is getting is inconsistent and he should behave the same for everyone who handles him.

Did this behavior start when you switched barns? Some of it may be a settling in period but if it's gone on for more than a week, try to replicate how your horse was cared for at your previous barn.

Another thought -- was Fella not very fit and a bit underweight when you bought him? Sometimes a horse's true colors come out when they are healthy and fit and they turn into more horse than their owner expected.

Stay safe!

[paulaedwina]

It's like being a teacher; you start off treating everybody the same, but if a student has his particular challenges then you have to modify your approach to suit his needs.

He was out of shape when I got him, but not underweight, however I think he is happier at this barn than the last so it's working out that we are starting to see his true colors.

You're right about not changing a bunch of things at once, but safety becomes the immediate issue here so we'll work on the diet and supplements first I think. He gets turned out daily -he only overnights inside. I think he's working 5 days a week, but I'll find out.

I do think direction and patience are orders of the day.

Paula

[monstrpony]

Purina Sr still has a relatively high NSC. Switch to something with less starch/sugar. TC LS is a much better choice for this horse, for a host of reasons. Starch/sugar is a known trigger for this kind of behavior and the feed change is an obvious change that coincides with the change in behavior. You've had this horse for a while now without having this reactivity problem; it probably isn't the NH training in his distant past that's the issue. (if the horse is getting in people's space, the NH training didn't stick anyway--I don't think that's the source of your problem).

That said, the SmartCalm supplements can be helpful, but Remission is my favorite for this kind of horse.

[meupatdoes]

It's like being a teacher; you start off treating everybody the same, but if a student has his particular challenges then you have to modify your approach to suit his needs.

He was out of shape when I got him, but not underweight, however I think he is happier at this barn than the last so it's working out that we are starting to see his true colors.

You're right about not changing a bunch of things at once, but safety becomes the immediate issue here so we'll work on the diet and supplements first I think. He gets turned out daily -he only overnights inside. I think he's working 5 days a week, but I'll find out.

I do think direction and patience are orders of the day.

Paula

The behavior you mentioned was stuff like "spooking at a halter on the gate."

Do you mean, "stop and snort" or "wheel around and effin' LEAVE, kicking out behind"?

[Bluey]

The behavior you mentioned was stuff like "spooking at a halter on the gate."

Do you mean, "stop and snort" or "wheel around and effin' LEAVE, kicking out behind"?

Or really have a meltdown, become a jelly bundle and take several minutes to get it's brain back in gear?
That would be a truly over the top reactive horse.
We had one gelding like that, that after trying to make a riding horse of him for three years, made a great driving horse.

[BabyGoose]

My belgian/standarbred mare Roxy was exactly like this a few years ago. I got her when she was about 10 months old and she was great with everything. Had a trainer start her undersaddle, rode her for a few years, then had her trained to drive. She would have her moments of getting spooky at something that would result in an adreneline rush for a few minutes. She was not what I would consider hot, just could get excited about stuff occasionally. Then at about 10 years old she got really weird. Started spooking at everything. Became hard to handle. I sent her back to my driving trainer and even she was suprised how spooky she had become. She would overreact at everyday stuff. About that time my trainer developed some health issues and I didn't have a lot of time to mess with her so Roxy sat around for a few months. Then I found another trainer and started riding again. Roxy was doing great for a few months then started having vague lameness and was just not quite right. She kept getting worse, started having trouble getting up, eventually was diagnosed with EPM. In my research on EPM, spookiness and over reacting can be one of the first symptoms. I really doubt that this is the case with your horse, but it might be something to keep in the back of your mind if other symptoms start to develop.

[paulaedwina]

The spook is an issue because he'll knock you down. He hasn't knocked me down, but has knocked down the trainer and a working student. So his spook isn't bad -he's always been a spook in place guy (I hacked him around my old barn, into the pond, out of the pond -a good steep-sided pond mind you, etc), the danger is the personal space thing I think.

Did that make any sense? He doesn't bolt... wait hang on -he did bolt from her that one time and face planted her -bolted back into the field. She was leading 2 horses at the time.

I have to sit down and sort this out.

ETA I'll look into the EPM. I'm waiting to hear from the vet. He himself is a draft horse guy.

Paula

[meupatdoes]

The spook is an issue because he'll knock you down. He hasn't knocked me down, but has knocked down the trainer and a working student. So his spook isn't bad -he's always been a spook in place guy (I hacked him around my old barn, into the pond, out of the pond -a good steep-sided pond mind you, etc), the danger is the personal space thing I think.

Did that make any sense? He doesn't bolt... wait hang on -he did bolt from her that one time and face planted her -bolted back into the field. She was leading 2 horses at the time.

I have to sit down and sort this out.

ETA I'll look into the EPM. I'm waiting to hear from the vet. He himself is a draft horse guy.

Paula

I wouldn't change his feed; I would crack him one but good the second he got in my space and back him up 25 feet.

No, horse, DENIED. Period end of story.
Now lead past this halter like a normal horse.

[Kwill]

Sounds like he has a complete lack of respect for people -- he's taking care of himself, and paying absolutely no attention to the handler.

I think your trainer (and working student) isn't paying enough attention to him when leading and handling him, thus allowing him to take matters into his own hands.

When working with a horse like this, you have to have "two hands on the wheel" so to speak, rather than let them wander behind you like I am prone to do!

Try a well tied rope halter, and go back to some basic ground manners.

it's hard to give advice when you aren't there, observing what's going on, but it sounds like you know how to handle him and keep him from injuring you.

Is he getting beat up in the pasture, or anything? Something to shake his self confidence? Perhaps the traning is pushing him farther than he is comfortable with?

Spooking is a flight response where the horse feels not safe. So something is triggering his panic over stuff. Hope the vet can see something.

By the way, we had a horse in our barn that was hurting other horses in the pasture because of his panic over flies. He would bump into them and knock them around -- he was just a danger to the herd. He had to have completely different management. So it's not just horses in hand, this guy was a rude sort out loose!

[Lisa Cook]

The spook is an issue because he'll knock you down. He hasn't knocked me down, but has knocked down the trainer and a working student.

So unacceptable. I would, in all seriousness, lead him with a whiffle bat in hand, and use it with meaning if he comes into your space.

It doesn't matter if he is seriously, genuinely scared...he can be frightened and still stay out of your space. Look at the lower members of a herd...no matter how much they may lose their mind over something in turnout, they will NOT invade the space of Boss Horse. He needs to learn the same respect for people space. Wiffle bat. It won't hurt him, but it should get his attention, even in mid-meltdown.

[witherbee]

My friend has a perchie cross and he sounds very similar. I have an Irish Draught, and he can be tough if not in regular work or on ANY grain. He gets NO GRAIN at all, just free choice super timothy hay and minerals. Even a handful of pellets makes a difference with my guy.

Here he is - I don't think the no grain is a problem at all - he is ridden normally 3 or 4 times a week for at least an hour a session and we show usually 6 to 10 times a year.

http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...w%203-18-2012/

and here he is with his little buddy who is also just on hay and grass:
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...s8-29-11dd.jpg

[carolprudm]

The spook is an issue because he'll knock you down. He hasn't knocked me down, but has knocked down the trainer and a working student. So his spook isn't bad -he's always been a spook in place guy (I hacked him around my old barn, into the pond, out of the pond -a good steep-sided pond mind you, etc), the danger is the personal space thing I think.

Did that make any sense? He doesn't bolt... wait hang on -he did bolt from her that one time and face planted her -bolted back into the field. She was leading 2 horses at the time.

I have to sit down and sort this out.

ETA I'll look into the EPM. I'm waiting to hear from the vet. He himself is a draft horse guy.

Paula

Do not ever do this It is an accident waiting to happen.

This is the first thing to change. You say your trainer is used to working with stallions. Seriously, I have a hard time believing this.

There are probably only two ground safety issues that will make me go non linear. The other is wrapping a lead around your hand. And taking a bucket of treats into a field of horses, so that's three.

Less grain, more turnout, calming supplements, that's fine and dandy, but honestly I think you are just going to have to do the work.