Western Clique: Finally! AQHA rule changes for WP, looking for more forward motion!

[my buddy's blue]

I have ridden and trained AQHA WP horses, one even qualified for the world show and congress in WP, HUS, and Western Riding. I still disagree with the lope(if you can even call it that). It is unnatural and uncomfortable for the horse. All of my show horses will go at any speed by leg control only. I have ridden with contact since I started showing AQHA, not proud of it, but I do it now out of habit. I feel sorry for many(not all) of the AQHA WP horses, they have a long life of sore backs and broken spirits. I showed AQHA for 5 yrs before the abuse finally got to me. It is not open abuse that you could call someone about but it is abuse. There is nothing kind about snatching a horse in the mouth with a curb bit or digging rowelled spurs into their sides. Many of the riders I saw were not good enough riders to ride with spurs or a curb bit, and some of these people were trainers. I love my QH, Snow, and I want to show him AQHA, but I will not make him do that ridiculous "broken-leg" lope. Winning is not that important, besides I hope he follows in his daddy's hoofprints and gets pinned for moving correctly, not what is in fashion. There is a line in Black Beauty that I wish I could find. It has something to do about the bearing rein and fashion. I wish I could find it. It ring so true about what is in fashion and how it can hurt our horses.

[my buddy's blue]

Munchkin, you are lucky I showed in SC only, and the judge only went to the ring when it was time to judge. The bottom line was they did not want to waste their time on something trival. I measured a jumper class once because I wanted to tell my trainer what the horse was jumping. The jumps we jumped were fixed in the first go-round and never changed, they were set at 4'6" and better. The course designers knew nothing about jumping and set the course at all kinds of angles and turns. They made it very dangerous. I am glad your club follows the rules.

[Eileen Miller]

Blue, I'm glad to see another post about the "pump jack" lope. Which is what this thread is about. There are alot of us in local shows who have to deal with "experts who show AQHA/APHA" and who complain if there 4 beaters dont pin at local shows....*sigh*..I do hope the 4 beat goes way...its detrimental to the horses and the exhibitors, and makes for nasty talk from people who dont the whole deal.

Eileen


"If the world were truly a rational place. men would ride side saddle." Rita Mae Brown

The Long Island Horsemen's Society web page
http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/lihs/

[Kerby]

I've never been to a WP show, or any western show to be honest, but the before pictures the horses not only look lame, they aren't even cantering (loping) they look like they "canter" with the front and shuffle with the hind. The After pictures while still slow you can actually see the proper 3 beated canter, the canter that is natural to the horse. I'm glad (from a HP point of view) that the horses actually now look like they're going somewhere.

(and if cowboys from the 'old west' saw what we modern day folk did with their trusty QH's they'd be appalled... how the heck can you get from point A to point B, riding the range, etc. by going that slow. It would be faster to walk!! )

**"Do, or do not. There is no try" - Yoda, Empire Strikes Back**

[Albion]

The thread on another BB that was previously posted, about the halter horses & the other-class-than-halter requirement proposal, is very instructive & eye opening.

I have an ignorant question - when did QH halter horses begin to look like they do today? And why?

And for all the talk of specialization, shouldn't the aim of halter (or hunter line classes, or sport horse line classes, etc) not be an end result (ie, producing a 'halter horse', or a 'hunter breeding horse') - but to show off what the best type of that breed (or discipline) ought to look like, in order to produce better and better horses for *riding*?

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[caffeinated]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Albion:
I have an ignorant question - when did QH halter horses begin to look like they do today? And why?

And for all the talk of specialization, shouldn't the aim of halter (or hunter line classes, or sport horse line classes, etc) not be an end result (ie, producing a 'halter horse', or a 'hunter breeding horse') - but to show off what the best type of that breed (or discipline) ought to look like, in order to produce better and better horses for *riding*?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One would think...

Anyway I don't think it's a very new thing... My first horse was an appendix whose QH side was full of halter champions from the 60s, and he had many of the conformation problems (and navicular of course) that the halter horses now have. He also had the muscle, even with minimal work he was very muscular, which I think is what started the whole thing in the first place...

If you look at Impressive, you see a really pretty horse- he was big and muscular but the pictures I've seen are nicely balanced... I think people looked at his parts and started trying to improve on each part by making it bigger. In the quest to make butts bigger and more meaty, the hind legs began to suffer, and now, if you google search and look at halter stallions, you see a lot of really funky back legs and huge butts.

I wonder at times whether the judges have spent too much time around cattle and expect the horses to look like cattle too?

It's not every halter horse, and I know some people who show more locally who win a lot with very correct horses. It just looks like the top horses at the really big shows are like this.

http://forums.horsecity.com/cgi-bin/...;f=30;t=004529

Just another thread about the subject...

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
PMU foals- better than you think!

[scotchdun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grog:
My first horse was an appendix whose QH side was full of halter champions from the 60s, and he had many of the conformation problems (and navicular of course) that the halter horses now have.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And jumpers and pleasure horses and cutting horses and reining horses all have, too. And Thoroughbreds and Paints and Arabians and Morgans and Saddlebreds, too. Navicular and navicular syndrome are in no way restricted to halter horses, nor do all halter horses have navicular. You sure have a lot of opinions...
Although I do not personally like a posty-legged horse, that's what they like in the halter. I also do not like a goose-rumped horse which is what seems to be preferred in jumpers. Consequently, I do not own a posty-legged or goose-rumped horse.

"She's called Lucy because she often has some 'splaining to do."

[caffeinated]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by scotchdun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grog:
My first horse was an appendix whose QH side was full of halter champions from the 60s, and he had many of the conformation problems (and navicular of course) that the halter horses now have.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And jumpers and pleasure horses and cutting horses and reining horses all have, too. And Thoroughbreds and Paints and Arabians and Morgans and Saddlebreds, too. Navicular and navicular syndrome are in no way restricted to halter horses, nor do all halter horses have navicular. You sure have a lot of opinions... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why can't I have opinions? I didn't go into the conformational faults my horse had, I just mentioned he also had navicular. But to be more specific, he had a large body with loads of muscle, "pig butt", too straight hind legs, short and "thin" front legs and upright pasterns, all looks I see in a lot of the halter champions pictures.

Anyhoo I'm sorry I have a lot of opinions, but last I checked we were all entitled to them

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
PMU foals- better than you think!

[Albion]

Good lord, Grog, that picture on the link you posted is ... shocking, to say the least.

And this is supposed to be the IDEAL?

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[malarkey]

waaahhh! the video doesn't render for me!

*member of the connemara clique and the adults riding ponies clique*

[Sandy M]

Maybe it as only a proposal, but I do believe I read some years ago that the Arabian Horse Club was (does now?) require that candidates for National Championships at Halter must be entered in a performance division as well. It's so weird - a good performance QH is barely recognizable as the same thing as a champion halter horse, so "being a halter horse" has become an end in itself, with no relavance to performance. This is the MODEL of the breed??? Aaargh!!!

[wondrlnd77]

scotchdun said
"I also do not like a goose-rumped horse which is what seems to be preferred in jumpers"


The last time I checked, what was preferred in the jumpers was the horse that could get over the fences the cleanest and quickest...

I forgot who asked it, but I have ridden a WP horse. I ran my hunter program out of a QH barn for a number of years. I even attended a QH show and watched the over fences classes, which I will not comment on. As an aside, I did notice that the majority of the HUS horses are schooled in a western saddle then switched back to english tack before their class.

[jvanrens]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wondrlnd77:
As an aside, I did notice that the majority of the HUS horses are schooled in a western saddle then switched back to english tack before their class.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your point being?

I must admit, I'm guilty of doing the same. Love my western saddle. I'll school in it most of the year given the chance. I used to threaten to bring it to the hunter schooling shows, but my HP buddy almost had a stroke.

Jo

~~Some days are a total waste of makeup.~~

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
Maybe it as only a proposal, but I do believe I read some years ago that the Arabian Horse Club was (does now?) require that candidates for National Championships at Halter must be entered in a performance division as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The original rule was a halter horse over a certain age needed a ribbon in a performance class to qulify for Nationals. This led to BNTs sending halfbroke horses with terrified grooms into 3 horse classes, trailer rides to the most podunk locations imaginable in the hope that there would be some 1 or 2 horse classes, etc.
(One friend of mine had the delicious experience of beating a very BNT's horses in a trail class--they were under the mistaken notion that anyone could make it around a trail course...)

the rule was rescinded, as it was realized it was a joke.
It has resurfaced in a form with at least a few teeth--now the horse needs to place in the top half of a class--rounded off (for example, in a seven horse class, must be at least 4th), or completed an endurance or CTR ride, or an AJC race.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

[Sandy M]

Thanks, Ghazzu. I wondered whether they had actually DONE it. Glad they finally implemented it in a way that made sense. What a terrible demand to make on the halter horses of BNTs: Expect them to actually PERFORM UNDER SADDLE! Oh, the horror!!!!

[appyhunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grog:
[I wonder at times whether the judges have spent too much time around cattle and expect the horses to look like cattle too?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grog: you got it! The original stock halter classes were held at the "Fat Stock" shows, and the judges were often raising both beef cattle and the horses to work them themselves. Stock halter standards are still based on their livestock raiser beginnings.

As the stock horse breeding industry started growing, and loosing touch with it's roots, the inevitable human trait of 'improving' things also lost some of that relation to working ranch horses and exaggeration set in. As the 'halter' horses became a goal in themselves, and they were not expected to actually WORK cattle anymore... selection was for muscle, and not for sound legs and feet.

And Albion, most breeds are in a constant state of transition, as breeders and breed purposes evolve thru the years. The stock breeds just have had some very visible changes... fads if you will, in types of horses bred. You could go take a look at the Western Horseman published series on AQHA greats, and that might answer some of your question as to what kinds of changes and when they happened.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
What a terrible demand to make on the halter horses of BNTs: Expect them to actually PERFORM UNDER SADDLE! Oh, the horror!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the bigtime halter owners got all bent out of shape about the additional expense that would be incurred--she'd have to buy *tack*!

(And this is one of those folks that probably drops the price of a decent saddle on a monthly basis in full page color ads in the glossy breed mags.)


Not to mention those halter owners who complained that they'd have to send their horses to another trainer--because the Big Hair they were with was a "halter trainer" exclusively...

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

[libgrrl]

I'll never get the AQHA or Arab halter people. Why don't they just buy dogs, for crying out loud? They're much cheaper!

[caffeinated]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by libgrrl:
I'll never get the AQHA or Arab halter people. Why don't they just buy dogs, for crying out loud? They're much cheaper!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL.

To be fair though they have their share of criticism for us too

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
PMU foals- better than you think!

[Flashy Gray]

Grog, the best line in the thread you linked to above, re: the palomino halter stallion:

"Look out! He's gonna blow!!!"



I'm having some trouble with the AQHA website - can anyone post a link to a video of some halter classes? Quick Time or RealPlayer preferred. Thanks -