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romneys again

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  • Originally posted by bauhaus View Post
    And following your the logic you used above, we should only allow the wealthy to ride and own horses because they are the only ones who can afford to do anything and everything to care for them.

    Explain why the world is better off with Big Lick walking horses - a thing which literally would not exist if not for a relatively small number of wealthy people who like winning the Celebration. You can extrapolate that to the various sports (as I mentioned) which have gone quite a bit sideways due to the enormous pressures put on them by the enormous amounts of money involved.
    Maybe that is similar to dictators to embrace some religion and use it as an excuse to control a country?

    Just because some abuse, that doesn't mean we need to eliminate use.
    There are abusers every place, those are the ones that need to be stopped and kept from abusing, no matter where that happens.
    Let the rest keep using their horses.

    I know, that is against animal rights ideals, but there it is, we just will have to agree to disagree there.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
      Maybe that is similar to dictators to embrace some religion and use it as an excuse to control a country?

      Just because some abuse, that doesn't mean we need to eliminate use.
      There are abusers every place, those are the ones that need to be stopped and kept from abusing, no matter where that happens.
      Let the rest keep using their horses.

      I know, that is against animal rights ideals, but there it is, we just will have to agree to disagree there.
      If you were interested in debating honestly you'd be able to do it without using strawman arguments. Most of your posts wind up looking like you're having a conversation with an imaginary person in your own head..... Now, if you'd like to actually think and connect what I said to what you said instead of throwing out random thoughts which are far at the end of very wild tangents from my starting point?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by bauhaus View Post
        ...and we wouldn't see horses dying on Rolex or other ****cross country courses, we wouldn't see unscrupulous trainers getting banned for giving their horses cocaine or giving their children's small ponies illegal drugs, we wouldn't see big lick walking horses being tortured, etc etc if the big money wasn't there motivating all of it. So in other words, nothing you mentioned disappearing is a bad thing to horses or the vast majority of their riders in the slightest.
        Speaking of which, this story about The Romney's horse Super Hit just ended up on my FB page, courtesy of a friend.

        http://www.dogsagainstromney.com/

        Never heard of the site I traced it back to, but it seems to bring them right into line with the group of owners described in the above post. My disgust with the Romneys is no secret on this board. This just sinks them to another new low. I am a former Massachusetts resident. I will never vote for these people. Two thumbs down.

        ETA: I hope that story follows them right across the pond, and her Olympic horse gets drug tested every.single.time it walks out of the stall.
        If this wasn't some politician's wife living with a MS diagnosis, this board would have raked them and their BNTs over the coals a long time ago.
        "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

        http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/...2011%20Photos/

        Comment


        • Originally posted by bauhaus View Post
          If you were interested in debating honestly you'd be able to do it without using strawman arguments. Most of your posts wind up looking like you're having a conversation with an imaginary person in your own head..... Now, if you'd like to actually think and connect what I said to what you said instead of throwing out random thoughts which are far at the end of very wild tangents from my starting point?

          And your post is responding to what?
          Sorry to make you think, that happens sometimes on internet discussions.

          It is ok to fall for shooting the messenger when you don't have any left to say, just don't expect to get meaningful responses to that kind of post, that doesn't offer any to the discussion on hand.

          Comment


          • Here's some more info on her horse Super Hit. Steven Soule, DVM, who testified on the ingredients of the cocktail found in the horse's system, has been the USET vet since 1978. I would prefer to see it printed in the LA Times instead of these biased sites, but this year, it seems we get what we get, wherever it appears. Seems they couldn't hush it up in time, so it will probably make it into the Times eventually.

            http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002843096

            ETA: I see it has made it into the NY Times, and is being discussed on the dressage forum. I'll leave it be on this forum.
            Last edited by Chief2; Jun. 22, 2012, 09:58 PM.
            "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

            http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/...2011%20Photos/

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
              And your post is responding to what?
              Sorry to make you think, that happens sometimes on internet discussions.

              It is ok to fall for shooting the messenger when you don't have any left to say, just don't expect to get meaningful responses to that kind of post, that doesn't offer any to the discussion on hand.
              Look, let me try again, since you are flailing around. Explain how you get from "too much money in the sport has a detrimental effect on horses due to the greed of many owners and trainers" (followed by several examples from deaths of horses at top shelf events of various disciplines to big lick walking horses) to "Maybe that is similar to dictators to embrace some religion and use it as an excuse to control a country?" - your own words.

              You just set up an argument in short sound bites (the strawman argument that I want to dictate how horses are used), when what I actually said was that moonriverfarm's list of things which would not exist if not for the influence of enormous amounts of money was not necessarily a list of positive things, and then I pointed out the many negatives which go along with the influence of enormous amounts of money. Then you attacked YOUR argument - the one about dictating how horses are used - which you attempted to attribute to me but which I did not make myself. At no point did you address my actual argument, repeated above in case you forgot what it was. I can't really put this in any clearer terms for you so if you still don't understand what I'm saying then oh well.

              Comment


              • bauhaus, we're just use to it....

                Comment


                • to the greed and corruption in horses?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Chief2 View Post
                    Speaking of which, this story about The Romney's horse Super Hit just ended up on my FB page, courtesy of a friend.

                    http://www.dogsagainstromney.com/

                    Never heard of the site I traced it back to, but it seems to bring them right into line with the group of owners described in the above post. My disgust with the Romneys is no secret on this board. This just sinks them to another new low. I am a former Massachusetts resident. I will never vote for these people. Two thumbs down.

                    ETA: I hope that story follows them right across the pond, and her Olympic horse gets drug tested every.single.time it walks out of the stall.
                    If this wasn't some politician's wife living with a MS diagnosis, this board would have raked them and their BNTs over the coals a long time ago.
                    Agh America at its best. Why bother to read or research even a fraction of the truth when you can simply post on a forum some where pontificating about your opinions truth be damned.
                    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by MrCharles View Post
                      to the greed and corruption in horses?
                      No, to Bluey's arguments going all over the map hence my previous response to Bluey. Makes my head spin...

                      Regarding the other issue, unfortunately I do know and know of the players in the Super Hit issue. I do not blame Ann Romney but the trainer and the vet are very well known in my area. In fact, the trainer has made the same statement of another horse I know. A horse that I know has "issues". Very disheartening to read that story. There are times in the horse world that I am very sad to see people say and do things that are not what I would hope their response to be. But then again, I have been fired by clients for telling them the truth in my field of work....

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by hackinaround View Post
                        Agh America at its best. Why bother to read or research even a fraction of the truth when you can simply post on a forum some where pontificating about your opinions truth be damned.
                        The copy of the lawsuit is now up on the internet. "According to a toxicology report provided to the horse's vet and testimony from a veterinarian, Dr. Steven Soule, included in the lawsuit, Super Hit had three sedative pain killers and one narcotic pain killer in her system when the horse was examined to check her condition pre-sale. The drugs were Butorphanol, Delomidine, Romifidine, and Xylatine.

                        Soule, who has been the United States Equestrian Team veterinarian since 1978, writes, “In my 38 years of practice, I have never come across a drug screen such as this where the horse has been administered so many different medications at the same time.” The horse had a defect in its foot, and Norris's lawyers alleged that the Ebelings had drugged the horse in order to hide its condition."

                        The horse's show record has been posted up on the dressage forum. Poor scores for the two years involving the foot issue, worse scores for the year 2008 following the purchase. Indicative of a broken horse. A six-figure sale for a broken horse. No wonder there was a lawsuit.

                        Mrs. Romney has stated that she cares about every one of her horses.
                        They have paid the bills on these horses and taken the tax deductions. It's very difficult to believe, with what is already surfacing, that she had no idea (again) about what had been going on with her horse. People seem to excuse her again and again, saying she couldn't possibly have known one thing or another. I get it. She's pretty, she's wealthy, she has MS, she seems nice, she rides horses and she rides dressage. Things are not adding up to her being the great innocent everyone wants to believe she is. Or wants everyone else to believe she is. Either she is the great innocent married to a great liar, or she's right in there with him. Given how high she's already climbed with him, I'll take the latter.
                        "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

                        http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/...2011%20Photos/

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Chief2 View Post
                          The copy of the lawsuit is now up on the internet. "According to a toxicology report provided to the horse's vet and testimony from a veterinarian, Dr. Steven Soule, included in the lawsuit, Super Hit had three sedative pain killers and one narcotic pain killer in her system when the horse was examined to check her condition pre-sale. The drugs were Butorphanol, Delomidine, Romifidine, and Xylatine.

                          Soule, who has been the United States Equestrian Team veterinarian since 1978, writes, “In my 38 years of practice, I have never come across a drug screen such as this where the horse has been administered so many different medications at the same time.” The horse had a defect in its foot, and Norris's lawyers alleged that the Ebelings had drugged the horse in order to hide its condition."

                          The horse's show record has been posted up on the dressage forum. Poor scores for the two years involved, worse scores for the year 2008 following the purchase. Indicative of a broken horse.

                          Mrs. Romney states she cares about every one of her horses.
                          They have paid the bills on these horses and taken the tax deductions. It's very difficult to believe, with what is already surfacing, that she had no idea (again) about what had been going on with her horse. People seem to excuse her again and again, saying she couldn't possibly have known one thing or another. I get it. She's pretty, she's wealthy, she has MS, she seems nice, she rides horses and she rides dressage. Things are not adding up to her being the great innocent everyone wants to believe she is. Either she is the great innocent married to a great liar, or she's right in there with him. Given how high she's already climbed with him, I'll take the latter.
                          Still missing the part where the horse openly had the condition when AR bought it. They openly maintained the horse with coffin joint injections and the buyer still bought the damn thing and was shocked when that very same area caused a problem. Lastly they ran a tox screen on the horse at time of purchase I assume she knew the horse had sedatives in his system and still wrote the check. If she didn't know why the hell would she bother running a tox screen if she was not going to wait for the results to buy the horse. You can't fix stupid.
                          "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

                          Comment


                          • Well, I'm not a Romney supporter... . But a trainer is someone who I have put my trust in. Like I said, I'm a little too close to this. This horse had issues and the vet needed to come clean, as well as the trainer. I have moved my horse and I'm glad I no longer have to deal with those involved.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by hackinaround View Post
                              Still missing the part where the horse openly had the condition when AR bought it. They openly maintained the horse with coffin joint injections and the buyer still bought the damn thing and was shocked when that very same area caused a problem. Lastly they ran a tox screen on the horse at time of purchase I assume she knew the horse had sedatives in his system and still wrote the check. If she didn't know why the hell would she bother running a tox screen if she was not going to wait for the results to buy the horse. You can't fix stupid.
                              You can't fix guilty, either. If AR had been solidly in the clear, they would have never settled the lawsuit, and then tried to get the LA Times to hush it up. Both point to not wanting this to get out. Sorry. Too late.
                              "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein

                              http://s1098.photobucket.com/albums/...2011%20Photos/

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Chief2 View Post
                                You can't fix guilty, either. If AR had been solidly in the clear, they would have never settled the lawsuit, and then tried to get the LA Times to hush it up. Both point to not wanting this to get out. Sorry. Too late.
                                They DID NOT settle , the lawsuit was against the selling parties and the vet. The selling parties were dropped from the suit and the vet settled out of court with no exchange of money.

                                Like I said all the FACTS were available if you wanted to find them.

                                You understand that the horse started showing symptoms of being NQR MONTHS after he left the sellers barn not days or weeks. So in reality all the squawking about PPE's and drugs make not a bit of never-mind. Anything in the horses system that day was long gone before the horse started going lame. She bought a horse who openly "quoting the NYT article "he had a small abnormality in his left front coffin joint;" "Mrs. Romney consulted three veterinarians and was told it was “not significant;” "regularly received injections of anti-inflammatory drugs," and then got pissed that he did not stay sound ...boo hooo.
                                Last edited by Lynnwood; Jun. 23, 2012, 01:37 AM.
                                "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Chief2 View Post
                                  Here's some more info on her horse Super Hit. Steven Soule, DVM, who testified on the ingredients of the cocktail found in the horse's system, has been the USET vet since 1978. I would prefer to see it printed in the LA Times instead of these biased sites, but this year, it seems we get what we get, wherever it appears. Seems they couldn't hush it up in time, so it will probably make it into the Times eventually.

                                  http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002843096

                                  ETA: I see it has made it into the NY Times, and is being discussed on the dressage forum. I'll leave it be on this forum.

                                  Chief 2 I hate to say it but your 'source' looks like to be full of horse manure to say the least.

                                  Anyone buying a horse for $125,000 would/should have had a PPE (prepurchase exam) done and in that PPE blood would/should have been drawn and tested for just such things that the good doctor alleged was in the drug cocktail. If the blood tested positive the horse would/should have been rejected. Also, X-rays would/should have been taken and they would have alerted the buyer's vet to any significant problems.

                                  I bought a horse in 1999 for a mere $10,000 and had X-rays, and blood drawn and tested prior to the purchase and this was from a very ethical seller. At that time the PPE cost me ~ $800. Personally, I would consider that would be peanuts compared to the purchase price of a $125,000 price tag on Super Hit.

                                  When it comes to politics there is so little of the mud slung from one party to the other that holds so much as a grain of truth that it's almost funny. Hell, it is funny!

                                  Well, after reading a few more responses about this 'transaction' I have to agree with hackinaround that you can't fix stupid on the part of the buyer.

                                  As for the buyer's trainer who obviously felt that in spite of the PPE results still 'allowed' their client to purchase said horse, it's pretty obvious the trainer was getting a HUGE 'finder's fee' or whatever. Sure looks like a lot of hunter trainers that I know.

                                  Any vet that didn't immediately say, "Run, run, run fast away from this" deserved to get sued. That said about the vet, the vet's only job is to inform the buyer of the results of the PPE and if the buyer and their trainer still decide to purchase the horse, well, the vet's done his job and there isn't anymore that he can really do.

                                  As for the buyer ;Here's your sign!"
                                  Last edited by msj; Jun. 23, 2012, 11:12 AM. Reason: added last 4 paragraphs
                                  Sue

                                  I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying let's remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.

                                  Comment


                                  • If there was any remote HINT of anything wrong in this case I believe they would pay up -he's trying to run for office. But again as you say - if she was solidly in the clear they would not have to.

                                    Originally posted by Chief2 View Post
                                    You can't fix guilty, either. If AR had been solidly in the clear, they would have never settled the lawsuit, and then tried to get the LA Times to hush it up. Both point to not wanting this to get out. Sorry. Too late.
                                    The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                                    H. Cate

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                      Again, misunderstanding.
                                      Where am I defending Romney?

                                      All I am saying is that it is a bit low to pick on some equestrian because of who her husband may be.
                                      I am not the one with the political chip on my shoulders.
                                      Why is that for some so hard to understand?
                                      Totally agree with you Bluey, as I usually do.

                                      I have to add - If this wasn't a Republican candidate, this thread would be on page 10 already.

                                      This proves how desperate the other party is at trying to find dirt on Romney. If that's all they got, then he's got what it takes to be our next President.

                                      Got to give him credit for being honest and open about it. Can't say that for many politicians.

                                      I don't even have the time to compile a list of failures of our current President...

                                      I do find it ironic that horse owners on here are bashing another horse owner for owning horses???....

                                      As far as bashing the Romney's for taking a tax write off? How many horse/stables owners casting stones, haven't done the same....??? Anyone?

                                      It's not as though it is illegal and he truly is "Transparent". Ahem..
                                      MnToBe Twinkle Star: "Twinkie"
                                      http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...wo/009_17A.jpg

                                      Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                                      Comment


                                      • I think those who were bashing were misled by the articles that implied Romney was using a hobby deduction as a business and didn't understand how a horse can be syndicated. There's plenty of bashing to go around on both sides and if you think it's bad now, just wait. After all we all know that Obama is a communist/socialist/fascist/Muslim born in Kenya. Talk about absurd.

                                        I assume the whole elitist dressage meme is being used because it works, the same goes for many of our fellow citizens who appear to think dressage is elitist.

                                        At least the article did make a correction at the bottom...the deduction was a net $50 or so.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                                          I think those who were bashing were misled by the articles that implied Romney was using a hobby deduction as a business and didn't understand how a horse can be syndicated. There's plenty of bashing to go around on both sides and if you think it's bad now, just wait.

                                          I assume the whole elitist dressage meme is being used because it works. I would venture that many of our fellow citizens think it is elitist.
                                          I think you are right.

                                          No telling how the general public will remember what riding horses in competitions is after this go round, by the time all jump on it with the wildest guesses.

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