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Rodeo - What is your point of view?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by MayS View Post

    Upper level rodeo stock are cared for well when they're winning. Where do they go when they get hurt and no longer win? Care of lower level horses is questionable at best.

    The very nature of rodeos is not looking out for the horses' best long-term interest. For example the bucking stock: who wants a horse who bucks every time a saddle is put on him? [ship them to slaughter!]. The roping stock are ridden hard and must plant their feet against the weight of a roped animal still in motion. Where do they go when they get back, hock, or other injuries? [ship 'em!] Rider blames horse for not winning and is "usless"? [ship 'em!]
    The statement you made above applies to practically every discipline.
    Where are the T.B.s shipped when they are no longer winning races?

    I've seen jumpers with blown out knees - certainly not in the best interest of the horse in the long term.
    I don't think anything is probably harder and more un-natural than to make a horse jump 4 feet or so. It is not something they do naturally in the wild. Am I against it?? NO - because as I stated, no discipline is perfect.

    Practically every discipline has "useless" horses if they are no longer winning.

    It takes years to train a good roping horse, so it is in the best interest of the owner to take the very best care of his/her horse.

    And as far as the bucking horses? I've known several that have made good riding horses. It is the fleece bucking strap that makes them buck.

    When the rider comes off and the pick-up man releases the strap the horse stops bucking. Same with the bulls, who probably work a few minutes a week.
    MnToBe Twinkle Star: "Twinkie"

    Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!


    • #42
      Well one things obvious, theres alot of people with no clue about rodeo stock just like there is alot of people with no clue about the slaughter industry.
      Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.


      • #43
        Originally posted by county View Post
        Well one things obvious, theres alot of people with no clue about rodeo stock just like there is alot of people with no clue about the slaughter industry.
        Or racing or eventing or...you take your pick, but everyone sitting behind a computer screen has a very strong opinion, even about what they obviously don't know much about.


        • #44
          Originally posted by Gestalt View Post
          ... wild cow milking isn't too far behind. And for the folks that think most of these cowboys can really ride, um no, they can't. Reining and cutting are where the horsemen are, the others are just "cowboys".
          Ok, this is just not correct! You have obviously NEVER been on a real working ranch that had a momma cow reject her calf. In the REAL world you do have to rope the momma cow (who is VERY pissed off) and mug her (meaning stop her, not throw her down or anything else) so a cowboy can milk her for the colostrum so her calf can live. It is not cruel nor does it injury the momma cow. It is a necessity in the real world when you are working hundreds of cow-calf pairs miles from camp (barn, house, etc) and you cant just hop in the pickup and drive to Tractor Supply and buy some. I have been on many 5,000 acre+ ranches here in Texas where we have had to do this.

          Now in ranch rodeos, the purpose is to simulate real life ranch work, none of this BS bull riding or can crashing (barrel racing).

          The events are as follows: (These are events sanctioned by the Working Ranch Cowboy Assoc www.wrca.org)

          Double Mugging/Doctoring
          Wild Cow Milking
          Ranch Bronc Riding

          Branding: In the branding you have 1 cowboy ride at a trot into a herd of momma cow and calves and rope 1 calf (either neck loop or hind feet loop- must be a legal catch). The cowboy then drags the calf at a trot to a "crew" who release the rope from his hind legs and they place a chalk brand on his side. The cowboy then goes back and gets one more calf, rinse and repeat. There are tons of rules on legal catches, speeds, etc. This is exactly what real cowboys do in Spring round up and branding.

          Sorting/Penning: There are probably 30 head on steers in the end of the arena with numbers on them (they look like bracelets with numbers that go around the belly). Normally 3 head will wear the same number. 1 cowboy goes into the herd at a walk (you don't want to stir up the herd) and try to sift off only the bovines with the number you drew. The other 3 or 4 cowboys are "holding the line" like cutting horses do as to not let the herd slip by and disqualify them. Once the cowboy in the herd sifts off a bovine of the correct number one of the guys on the line pushes them into the end of the arena to wait for the other 2 bovines. Once all 3 correctly numbered bovines are past the line that the other cowboys are holding they move them down into the other end where there is a box set up with panels (3 sides and the 4 panel at an angle as a "gate"). They try and get all 3 cows in the box and then time is called. Same thing as having to sort cattle on a ranch and push them into a pen. You would do this specifically if you had some sicks and needed to separate them and pen them to doctor.

          Double Mugging/ Doctoring: The exact same thing you would do in the pasture if you had a sick or bad eye. 1 cowboy ropes the head and another ropes his back legs (like team roping) but then a cowboy on the ground runs over and puts a chalk mark on the cows forehead runs back to the chalk bucket and time is called. Double mugging is run along the same lines.

          Wild Cow Milking: I already explained the reason behind it. But contrary to what someone else stated they only release 1 momma cow into the arena and the guys have to wait until the timer drops the flag to go rope her. They have a 2 loop limit (they can only throw 2 loops) and it must be a legal catch. The other guys on the ground try and stop her while the cowboy on horseback is still dallied/tied on. Once they get her stopped they milk her into a bottle and one guy has to sprint across the arena back to the timer. Time is then called and the timer dumps over the bottle. If there is milk they get a time, if there is not they get DQd.

          Ranch Bronc Riding: Follows along the lines of cowboy starting colts on the ranch. They use their normal ranch saddles (same ones they rope and ride with) and the horse has on a bronc halter. These cowboys must look like they would if they were to go out on a ride. No flashy chaps or all that crap. Some places allow them to use a night latch (an "oh sh!t" strap) and some don't. The horses they use are not NFR bucking horses, most of them are off of a large ranch or from a stock contractor.

          As you can tell this is near and dear to my heart as my SO is on 2 different ranch rodeo teams and in real life dayworks for the Guitar, JA, Pitchfork & 6666 among other large ranches. He is also employed at a 10,000 head pre-conditioning yard (i.e one step before a feedlot). I help often and have competed in a ranch rodeo and can honestly tell you it is the closest thing to real cowboys as you can get.

          None of the events are done simply for entertainment or amusement.
          RIP Kid Gloves (Holly) 1992 TBxHanv CCI*** mare.
          New mare: Miss Bunny Express (Missy) 1995 AQHA Jumper mare.


          • #45
            Originally posted by jdmcg View Post
            LiveToFly said:
            Here the thing, the animals are much less pets in rodeos then they are to hunter/jumper rider. Therefore right there they are going to be treated with less care.

            Whoa! That is very presumptuous to say that because an animal isn't someone's pet that it will receive less care. People who grow up on farms have service animals, cattle, horses, chickens, etc., etc., etc., that are treated VERY well, receiving excellent care, yet they are not pets.

            LiveToFly's kind of thinking is very dangerous and falls into the trap of some animal activists, ie. if you don't treat your animals as pets, then it's abusive. I resent being told that my well cared for farm animals, who are not pets, are less cared for than someone else's dear pet! My animals are well fed, have adequate shelter from the elements, proper veterinary care and grooming when necessary. They have it made. Look at the same animal's wild counterpart and observe the difference.

            I am not in anyway defending any kind of abuse. I just don't like it when someone assumes that because an animal is not someone's pet that it is not treated as well as one that is.

            Calf roping for branding: necessary.
            Calf roping for sport: stupid abuse.
            Calf roping for spectacle:

            Im not "assuming" But people are more likley to be rough with animals they dont have a emotional connection too
            I have high, HIGH respect for good ranchers, because I know how irritating it can be to be constantley working with animals that dont want to be messed with
            Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Author Unknown


            • #46
              txedayeventer, I don't know what rodeo's you've watched, but the ones in this area that have wild cow milking are gross. The way those cows are handled has nothing to do with everyday life on a ranch. And do people really think that ranchers take "good care" of their livestock? Cattle are handled quite brutally, luckily cows are tough or they would not survive.

              Yeah, I grew up on a ranch and I know many other ranchers, it's not a fairy tale living.
              Hillary Rodham Clinton - the peoples choice for president.


              • #47
                Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                The HyPP issue would have costed the AQHA several lawsuits and they don't have the money to fight any more of those, the few they fought took a big toll on the AQHA, so they can't fight HyPP, embrio transfer, cloning and such with other than the regulations in place, where members vote on the issues.
                I haven't read anything about AQHA not planning to follow through on the HYPP rule Bluey, at this point it's only H/H horses that are no longer being registered. Also they do not accept cloned horses for registration, and have made it pretty clear from day one (of the first cloned horse) that they wouldn't be. So far there hasn't been anyone threatening a lawsuit over them either that I've heard of, though I'm sure AQHA's lawyers are prepared for the possiblilty.
                ~~Some days are a total waste of makeup.~~


                • #48
                  Originally posted by jvanrens View Post
                  I haven't read anything about AQHA not planning to follow through on the HYPP rule Bluey, at this point it's only H/H horses that are no longer being registered. Also they do not accept cloned horses for registration, and have made it pretty clear from day one (of the first cloned horse) that they wouldn't be. So far there hasn't been anyone threatening a lawsuit over them either that I've heard of, though I'm sure AQHA's lawyers are prepared for the possiblilty.

                  AQHA is following thru with phasing out HyPP horses, but many have been mad that they didn't do more, sooner, that is why I was explaining why they had to go slow with such changes.
                  As for cloning, best I know, they are in the process of being sued, I think, just as they were before, on the grounds that a clone is just as much an AQHA horse as the original parent and the offspring of two registered parents and should be able to be registered.
                  It will be hard to dispute that a clone from a duly registered AQHA horse is not an AQHA horse.


                  • #49
                    The AQHA will stop reg N/H horses in 2010 they stopped H/H horses already. Theres alot of things the AQHA would like stopped but they can only afford so many lawsuits losing the ET suit cost alot of money and certain things are legal doesn't matter if the general membership or public likes them or not. Unless your going to get the gov. involved to change laws the courts rule is law.
                    Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Chipngrace View Post
                      I had to quit going to lower level game shows around here because of the bad horsemanship, it would make me cringe.
                      I think this is true with mid level local everything though.

                      Heck, I see videos on line of people doing eventing that are torturing their poor animals. Yanking and pulling on their mouth, smashing up and down on their back, etc. I saw this one with a VERY large woman on her horse totally splatting on its back over jumps, when she could get it to jump.

                      My point is, Rodeo is not any different than any other horse sport at that level.


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by LiveToFly View Post
                        Im not "assuming" But people are more likley to be rough with animals they dont have a emotional connection too
                        An "emotional connection" is no guarantee whatsoever that good treatment will result. Maybe ill treatment is even more probable when an "emotional connection" is present because people so easily take petty stuff personally and unjustly (an unpredictably!) lash back at the offender, be it spouse, SO, child, or PET.


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by SLW View Post
                          Naive it is. Yes, I've followed the TWH issues. If the association isn't enforcing rules and keeping it safe for the horse then bring in the Feds and shut the show down.

                          Last year the Arabian show world changed it's rules to allow a longer hoof/shoe length- not progress in my book and many bowed tendons later..... And yes, I'm aware Arabs dont wear tail sets, was trying to keep the post short. However, I also know techniques not allowed on showgrounds are used in training sessions in each dicipline. Watch it trainers! I was 13 years old and at a national level private hunter barn getting the nickel tour. A former student of my instructor was working there. Anyway, there were poles on the jumps in the indoor covered with tiny tack nails and I was like "wow, why that?". We all know why. The owners horses won and their top rider, at the time had just won the medal classes at the Garden, et al, is now an international rider w/ a long respected career. That person is a GOOD person, just sharing how that barn poled the hunters to get that perfect jump every time.

                          Associations do make bad practices a reason for being DQ from a show or loosing one's membership- take a peek at the monthly "suspended" list in any group. They aren't perfect but they are a watchdog. This includes limiting the type and amount of drugs which are legal, not allowing specific veterinary proceedures which produce cosmetic results and AQHA finally took a stand against HYPP positive horses, to name a few.

                          So, while I don't agree with the goal of every breed association, I'll stand beside them over PETA/SHARK any day.
                          Actually, the Arabian crosses are allowed a longer toe and heavier shoe. Many arabian crosses are DHH or Saddlebred, both of which have much larger hooves than the average arabian. And arabians have much larger hooves for their size than most breeds anyway (comparable QHs and morgans to Arabians, and the arabian's hoof is usually much rounder and wider). They were having a lot of issues with people cutting the horses hooves too short, and under shoeing them, to keep up with some arbituary guideline set years ago. Now, finally, people can shoe their horses to fit the horses needs.
                          "Sadly, some people's greatest skill, is being an idiot". (facebook profile pic I saw).


                          • #53
                            We have adopted/rescued a former bucking horse. Whatever approving, or even ambivilant, feelings I had ever held on rodeo have since turned to disgust.

                            For those of you defending the treatment of the rough stock, look into what happens to them should they be injured, or actually live long enough to be too old to buck.

                            Watching people terrorizing animals just isn't entertainment to me. As far as I'm concerned, rodeo isn't too far from the dog fights that put Michael Vick rightfully behind bars last year.
                            Barbaro Cultist, Metabolic Nazi


                            • #54
                              I hate the calf roping. It seems like cruel and unusual punishment for the calves. People can talk until they are blue in the face to me about how it's a "tradition" but it still doesn't thrill me to see a calf flipped upside down, into the air and onto his neck. It's creepy. For people to hoot and holler over it...agh. Hate it.

                              I grew up going to many rodeos in the southern CA area and every single person I knew that did rodeo events was cruel to their horses. These were the people I learned to ride from. I was cruel to my horse when I was growing up. It wasn't until I was older and learned how to PROPERLY discipline a horse (and learned the vitally important difference between a scared horse and a naughty horse) that I completely understood the sickness that was running through the horseman that I knew then.

                              My experience is limited to what I know. I have not opened my mind to accepting rodeo because of that. There isn't much rodeo going on in N. IN so it's not as if I have a chance to get a different perspective.....but if their rodeo is half as bad as the local 4H horse club, I doubt I'd be changing my mind.


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Luckydonkey View Post
                                I hav been around a lot of rodeo, and I don't mind it a bit. In the video the first horse that they ha in the cute looked like it had gone too far over backward, and they were trying to get it up on its feet again....As for that video- nope- anyvideo that has text boxes popping up assking for donations to stop the abuse is a video I will turn off and ignore. The people who made it are animal rights activists. I would love to let some of these people try to work some real livestock for a day though- let them try to move a rank bull or a cow on the peck and see how good they do at it.... Most of these people have no idea how "real life" is- they think there are actually nuggets on a chicken, and that milk comes from the store....things can happen, but you can go to multiple events and never see a mishap...

                                RODEO IS NOT REAL LIFE WORK. People working on ranches are doing REAL LIFE work. How many rodeo participants ACTUALLY work cattle for a living?

                                It's a spectator sport and the spectators get their rocks of watching it.



                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                                  I think this is true with mid level local everything though.

                                  Heck, I see videos on line of people doing eventing that are torturing their poor animals. Yanking and pulling on their mouth, smashing up and down on their back, etc. I saw this one with a VERY large woman on her horse totally splatting on its back over jumps, when she could get it to jump.

                                  My point is, Rodeo is not any different than any other horse sport at that level.
                                  So it's ok. Everyone else is doing it.


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Horseface View Post
                                    I just wonder about animal activists who have never ridden, and live downtown Toronto....what do they REALLY know about rodeos and riding in general.

                                    It just makes me kinda laugh.....they will go on and on about how cruel we are to animals but will think nothing of stepping over and ignoring one of the many homeless people sleeping on the sidewalk using a cement curb for a pillow....

                                    I suppose their concern comes from a good place...but not an educated place.
                                    Yeah - and what about all those poor, struggling rats, roaches and rock dove? Don't they deserve to be loved?


                                    • #58
                                      And people wonder why some pro slaughter groups think anyone wants to ban something besides slaughter. Crazy isn't it?
                                      Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.


                                      • #59
                                        I really don't have a problem with most rodeo events. Wild horse races and such aside, most of it is pretty humane, IMO.

                                        I do think it's ridiculous that some on here have claimed that the cowboys at rodeos care less for their animals than the riders at sporthorse events. I'm friends with quite a few people on my university's rodeo team, and I know for a fact that the level of care their animals receive is equal to what mine do. Maybe not as nit-picky, but more than adequate. They worry just as much over their horses as I do over mine and I would trust any one of them to handle my horses.

                                        Most cowboys - the good ones anyway - are just as against injuring an animal for sport as the rest of us. I remember being at a bull riding exhibition hosted by my university where the pick up riders (who were hired specifically for the event and were not associated with the university) were a bit below par on the decent human being scale. One allowed his horse to get gored again and again by an angry bull. The reaction of the rodeo team on the ground was exactly the same as that of the equestrian team in the stands: outrage at the rider and concern for the horse. They didn't see it as okay or as business as usual anymore than I did.
                                        "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                                        -George Morris


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by hundredacres View Post
                                          RODEO IS NOT REAL LIFE WORK. People working on ranches are doing REAL LIFE work. How many rodeo participants ACTUALLY work cattle for a living?

                                          It's a spectator sport and the spectators get their rocks of watching it.

                                          Iwas not insinuating that rodeo was real life work- i have spent years working with livestock in real life situations, and would love to let any of those animal rights idiots come and work with them for a few days and see what real life is all about. My point was that the video made by shark is unbeleivable,and makes the sport out to be worse than it really is. "Creepy" is the folks who will see the video and ban a good sport because they think that the video is the truth about the entire sport.