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Interesting article on the basis of horse anti-slaughter morality

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  • #61
    Taking the emotional issue out of it entirely, I still have problems with horses slaughtered for human consumption. A significant number of these problems stem from the notion that people have a right to safe food and that horse-meat quite frankly, is pretty scary when it comes to safety.

    First, there is the inability to track potential problems back to an individual source as horses are not farmed like cattle, pigs or chickens. If there were to be a large-scale problem similar to Mad Cow Disease that was conclusively linked to horse meat, you'd have a very hard time going any further back than the slaughterhouse. When we had the last Mad Cow scare in North America, they were able to track it to the individual feed-lot in short order.


    History illustrates quite clearly that a high-dollar horse is just as likely to end up on your plate as a backyard nag that never saw a vet in the entirety of it's life. The amount of medications, supplements, vaccinations, salves, sprays and other things that are used on horses is obscene. Almost everything is marked 'Not for use in/on horses intended for human consumption'. Think of all of the things you or someone in your barn used today. Furazone for that little pasture-scrape? Some fly-spray? Bute for your sore oldster? We're still near the beginning of the month - maybe you wormed this week. Certainly horses do get a "detox" period while they enter the system, but a lifetime of these things doesn't magically leave in two weeks. What about the old broodmares that go to the kill after a few years of Regumate - you aren't even supposed to handle that junk without gloves. What about the A circuit hunters who get a little blast of Depo Provera on occasion?

    I'm no accountant or financial whiz, but what about the revenue generated by the European owned slaughterhouses? I'm not so sure that a European owned slaughterhouse that export all of the resulting product back to Europe is a boon for Americans. It costs the US money in FDA regulators, inspectors, etc. Sure, they pay some taxes, and create some jobs - but a significant portion of that money is leaving the US and heading for European pockets.

    It will take a perfect storm of events to successfully change slaughter in the US. Breed organizations (Stock horse folk and race industry, I'm looking at you) need to quit with their tacit endorsment of slaughter by ending the incentives to churn out horses year after year. (Getting rid of 'Halter' would help too - crap division for breeding meat-animals if I ever saw one.) Current laws about horse-transport and export need to be enforced. Vets need to be willing to euthanize sound and healthy animals or rehome what they refuse to euthanize. Rescues need to learn to be realistic about which horses to save and/or pour all of their resources in to. These things can happen, they just need people to start putting change in motion.
    Whee!

    Comment


    • #62
      Your argument is one of the better ones I've seen, except for the idea that vets should rehome what they won't euthanize. I disagree. The owner should do that, not the vet. Of course, we all know that some owners are unwilling or unable, but until the state takes away their right to the animals, it's their call, not the vet's.


      BTW, I'm not anti-slaughter because of one of the arguments lots of folks shoot down: I eat meat. I don't eat all meat, but I eat meat.
      Proud Member of the League of Weenie Eventers
      Proud Member of the Courageous Weenie Eventers Clique

      Comment


      • #63
        U.S. companies make more money on foreign soil then the rest of the world combined why shouldn't other countries be able to make money here? If theres a problem with drugs in horse meat how is it that it passes EU rules and inspections? One would think if people are getting sick and or dieing from it we'd of heard by now. I use the exact same wormers and drugs in my cattle that I do in my horses.
        Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Daydream Believer View Post
          I don't agree with your assessment. I was raised on a farm and we killed our own chickens and pigs. I helped slaughter animals many times as a kid. We also had ponies that we did not eat....nor did we eat our dogs and cats. Some animals were for meat and some weren't. I still feel the same way today. Right or wrong, I do not think of a horse as a meat animal any more than I think of a dog or cat as one. I have no trouble accepting that is not so in other countries but I cannot support the practice in the US and I honestly think that is where most people are coming from that are anti slaughter.
          AGreed 100%. I was not technically raised on a farm, but my uncles farm was where I spent enough summers to "get it". If he would have skinned the dog and plopped in on the cutting board - well, as a kid I would have known the difference.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by county
            If theres a problem with drugs in horse meat how is it that it passes EU rules and inspections? One would think if people are getting sick and or dieing from it we'd of heard by now. I use the exact same wormers and drugs in my cattle that I do in my horses.
            EU rules and inspections are not the same as FDA inspections. Rules and standards vary from country to country. Even in our own country, plenty of stuff that should probably be unacceptable is allowed.

            People are getting sick and the source is likely horsemeat. We don't hear about it because we don't eat horsemeat in the US and food-related illnesses aren't going to be reported on extensively when it doesn't affect our citizens directly.

            Some links about horsemeat related illnesses in humans:

            http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/reprint/59/4/615.pdf - an article titled A Multifocal OUtbreak of Trichinellosis Linked to Horse Meat Imported from North America to France in 1993.

            If you try to pull the "Oh, well that was more than 10 years ago! It don' matter" card. Check it out, in 2003, something similar happened again! http://www.eurosurveillance.org/View...ArticleId=2252

            I can't find a convinent link to it at the moment, but there is an article out there by Italian researcher Edoardo Pozio at the Laboratory of Parasitology, Istituto Superiore di Sanità, titled: "Is Horsemeat Trichinellosis an Emerging Disease in the EU?"

            And oh hey, horsemeat killed some dogs. Yes, the horses were ill but there is no guarantee that every horse that makes it to the food-chain is 100% healthy:
            http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:3214366


            And seriously, wormer is in a different catagory than Depo Provera, Regumate, Bute and Banamine.
            Whee!

            Comment


            • #66
              Yes the EU standards are differant I don't see your piont. The countries buying and eating horse meat are from the EU why should they use USDA standards? Trichinellosis is from under cooked meat not because of horse meat its very common in undercooked pork yet no one wants pork banned.

              And seriously your right wormers are differant from Regumate, Banamine and Bute which is why I said " drugs " and wormers.
              Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by county View Post
                Yes the EU standards are differant I don't see your piont. The countries buying and eating horse meat are from the EU why should they use USDA standards? Trichinellosis is from under cooked meat not because of horse meat its very common in undercooked pork yet no one wants pork banned.

                And seriously your right wormers are differant from Regumate, Banamine and Bute which is why I said " drugs " and wormers.
                The point was that it's foolhardy to go "Hey it passed some sort of standards, so it's totally okay and totally safe!"

                Everybody's favorite equine pain-killer, Phenylbutazone is some nasty stuff! I'm sure you could safely make the assumption that it's nasty stuff, but did you know that the National Toxicology Program has determined it to be a carcinogen and to have "ulcerogenic, nephrotoxic, and hemotoxic effects" in humans? It is known to induce blood dyscrasias, including aplastic anemia, leukopenia, agranulocytosis, thrombocytopenia, and deaths.

                You probably shouldn't give Bute to Dairy Cattle according to the FDA!
                http://www.fda.gov/cvm/CVM_Updates/buteup.htm
                Investigation by FDA and State regulatory counterparts has found phenylbutazone on farms and identified tissue residues in culled dairy cattle. In addition, USDA's Food Safety Inspection Service has reported phenylbutazone residues in culled dairy cattle presented for slaughter for human food throughout the U.S. in the past two calendar years. This evidence indicates that the extralabel use of phenylbutazone in female dairy cattle 20 months of age or older will likely result in the presence, at slaughter, of residues that are toxic to humans, including being carcinogenic, at levels that have not been shown to be safe.
                It's fair to assume that if it stays in cattle, it stays in horses.

                Mmm, tasty carcinogens.

                Fact of the matter is we put some horrible stuff in to horses bodies and it isn't safe. Europe put restrictions in place a few years ago that ban horses who have ever consumed bute from entering the food-supply. I'm looking for a solid link on it (BBC article or something), but I've seen it mentioned on multiple sites about bute and horsemeat.

                It gets a mention here and quickly points out the import issue: http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/hanchette182.html The article makes mention of a racetrack worker who Darwined himself and tried some bute as a pain-killer and had quite a nasty response - grand mal seizures, respiratory and kidney failure, liver damage, went into a coma, and took six weeks in intensive care and repeated blood dialysis to recover.

                Yes, it's a relatively anti-slaughter issue, but I'd hope you can see past the perspective to the points.
                Whee!

                Comment


                • #68
                  I never said it was totally safe its not neither is the beef, pork, and poultry slaughtered here in the U.S. theres been many cases of food poisoning and deaths from them also. My point is if we eat food approved by the USDA why shouldn't the people in Eroupe eat food approved by the EU?

                  And theres a whole lot of things given to cattle that probably shouldn't be but beleive me they are each and every day especially dairy cattle.
                  Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Again, it's a food safety issue.

                    So much stuff we use on a daily basis (and not just show-people- even Tommy Trailrider and Wilbur Workingranchman) is marked Not For Use In Animals Intended For Human Consumption. Koppertox, Furazone, Swat - I'd bet my life-savings that I can walk in to 90% or more of the barns in the US and see at least one of those products.

                    Livestock is regulated and monitored. They are treated for illnesses and injury with the understanding that they are intended for food. Yes, they get antibiotics and hormones and all sorts of drugs that would probably make everyone's skin positively crawl, but there is REGULATION. There is a system in place.

                    With slaughterbound horses there is no system, no regulation and absolutely no way to know exactly WHAT any given horse has been exposed to or HOW MUCH of it that horse has been exposed to. From what it looks like, the European laws in place ban European horses that have consumed bute from entering the food-supply, but say nothing about imported meat. (Still looking for an impartial, media verified source.) Odd and problematic.

                    Is the end-consumer chomping down on an ex-racer that was pumped full of steroids and bute or a backyard pasture puff who lived essentially drug free due to ignorant owners that didn't realize you had to worm a horse, or that they made horsey-asprin? With the way slaughter works in the US there is absolutely no way to tell.

                    Forgive the analogy but, at the risk of sending it off the rails, the way the horse-slaughter system works is essentially the same as shooting a small herd of cattle up with various chemicals in differing combinations, differing doses and then telling the end consumer "Pick one, I dunno what you're gonna get". Sort of a Russian-Roulette.
                    Whee!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Trichinellosis is from under cooked meat not because of horse meat its very common in undercooked pork yet no one wants pork banned.
                      trichinellosis infection has been eliminated from US commercial pigs. But don't most people in france eat their horse steaks cooked rare? trichinellosis in horsemeat would be a major health disaster.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Again theres whats in books and theres the real world. I have worked in slaughter plants and with the livestock industry all my life yes theres regulations ( there is for horses also BTW ) but that hardly means its a fool proof system and that drugs given to slaughter animals meets the rules if it were we wouldn't have any cases of people getting sick or dieing from meat.
                        Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Bringing emotion back into the argument - I do not understand how anyone can think that it is moral or ethical to breed a horse, teach it to trust and accept a human's touch, send it to the racetrack and ask it to give everything it has to win and then ship it off to slaughter. You will never convince me that is right or humane and it should sure as heck not be legal.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            So whats the differance if you breed cattle, train them to trust, you then show them all over the country and ask them to win and then butcher them? Sheep same thing. Hogs no differant.
                            Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Donella View Post
                              If people are going to insist on slaughtering our PETS than they should learn a more humane way to do it

                              Oh, I see. So if it's cute and fuzzy then it deserves our compassion..but if it tastes good or isn't cute then whatever, it's ok if it spends the vast majority of it's life in abject misery? ( and don't fool yourself, physiologically all mammals ..and vertebrates for that matter, are VERY, very similiar).

                              What an incredibly selfish perspective. An animal only has value and is deserving of compassion if/when a human is attracted to it esthetically/culturally.
                              Wow. You sure read a WHOLE lot into a simple statement. I don't see anything about being cute and fuzzy deserving compassion. No need to be accusatory when you did not correctly read what was written!

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #75
                                Originally posted by county View Post
                                So whats the differance if you breed cattle, train them to trust, you then show them all over the country and ask them to win and then butcher them? Sheep same thing. Hogs no differant.
                                4H kids do this all the time. The top winning animals are auctioned off for slaughter right after the championship ribbons are hung around their necks. It's considered quite a coup if the champion steers sell for very high per pound prices.

                                Those 4H kids are every bit as close to their show animals as horse people. Closer than lots of horse people who board and don't have to do anything but show up and ride; the 4H competitors are intimately acquainted with their animals' manure and eating habits.
                                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Wow. You sure read a WHOLE lot into a simple statement. I don't see anything about being cute and fuzzy deserving compassion

                                  No, you typed the word "pet" in bold..ie PET is the keyword here for you as to wether or not something should be slaughtered humanely. At least that's how it came across to me. That IS the big difference for anti horse slaughter non vegetarians....pet vs livestock.
                                  www.svhanoverians.com

                                  "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Those 4H kids are every bit as close to their show animals as horse people

                                    Teaching a kid something like this is just beyond my comprehension. But that is something else all together.
                                    www.svhanoverians.com

                                    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by county View Post
                                      So whats the differance if you breed cattle, train them to trust, you then show them all over the country and ask them to win and then butcher them? Sheep same thing. Hogs no differant.
                                      I still think there is a difference between cattle and horses and sheep and dogs and I don't understand how you can say there is no difference. And for those "show" cattle or sheep? First of all they just need to stand there and eat to "win". No one is asking them for everything they have and then some, to win even if it means over-exhaustion and injury. I can understand that some animals are for slaughter and others aren't. If you can accept that dogs shouldn't be exported for slaughter because it is illegal, but it is okay for cattle, why not accept that it is okay for cattle but not for horses. A cow suffers just as much as a dog.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by Donella View Post
                                        Wow. You sure read a WHOLE lot into a simple statement. I don't see anything about being cute and fuzzy deserving compassion

                                        No, you typed the word "pet" in bold..ie PET is the keyword here for you as to wether or not something should be slaughtered humanely. At least that's how it came across to me. That IS the big difference for anti horse slaughter non vegetarians....pet vs livestock.
                                        I am not the author of the e-mail referring to pets, so I did not type the word "pet" and it is not a key word for me. I think you also mis-read MY e-mail.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          ROTFLMAO A cow just has to stand there and eat? You obviously don't show many cattle do you. Its illegal to sell dogs for meat thats how theres a differance to me the key word is " illegal ".
                                          Quality doesn\'t cost it pays.

                                          Comment

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