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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Original Poster

    As long as money, ribbons, honors, points, trophies, purses, breeders awards, various perks, keys to vacations homes, etc are offered for the riding of 2 yr olds there will be those who will push an animal beyond reasonable training and exercise. I am not against introducing a young horse to what will be its career, but i would love to see the showing and racing of ridden 2 yr olds be abolished.

    I saw the damage that racing 2 yr olds can do at the harness tracks also. I started taking care of a 3 yr old stallion who was a son of the popular Bye Bye Byrd - one of the premier stallions of the day. He was a colt who should NOT have been started as a 2 yr old. They even injected his hocks as a 2 yr old. He was ruined. I would stand him in ice boots to ease the pain as i sat in front of the stall and he would drop his head in my lap. He was being iced just to try to get him sound enough to peddle at the Harrisburg sale. I cried a lot of tears over that beautiful boy. So unnecessary. Had i been rich i would have bought him and tried to rehab him or more likeky just end his pain. Does anyone have access to USTA yearbooks ? His name was Jerobe's Byrd and i doubt that he ever raced again after the sale. This would have been in the late sixties or early seventies.

    I was working for one of the top trainer/drivers in the country, but it was one of his second trainers (also a driver) who made some bad decisions about this horse. The owners of this horse were very rich and had a lovely vacation home on the ocean. The second trainer kept this poor horse racing so he could have use of that vacation home.

    When the trainer came to town circuit week and saw the condition my horse was in he ordered that exercise and racing stop and the horse be put in a sale. The second trainer was soon let go. Not soon enough for Jerobe's Byrd though.

    Since people can do whatever they wish to their own property on their own property, some will push 2 yr olds beyond what is healthy for them in the long run. But the public arena is where i would like to see the riding of 2 yr olds be abolished because of all the aforementioned reasons in paragraph one that drive people to go to extremes. JMO
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
      As long as money, ribbons, honors, points, trophies, purses, breeders awards, various perks, keys to vacations homes, etc are offered for the riding of 2 yr olds there will be those who will push an animal beyond reasonable training and exercise. I am not against introducing a young horse to what will be its career, but i would love to see the showing and racing of ridden 2 yr olds be abolished.

      I saw the damage that racing 2 yr olds can do at the harness tracks also. I started taking care of a 3 yr old stallion who was a son of the popular Bye Bye Byrd - one of the premier stallions of the day. He was a colt who should NOT have been started as a 2 yr old. They even injected his hocks as a 2 yr old. He was ruined. I would stand him in ice boots to ease the pain as i sat in front of the stall and he would drop his head in my lap. He was being iced just to try to get him sound enough to peddle at the Harrisburg sale. I cried a lot of tears over that beautiful boy. So unnecessary. Had i been rich i would have bought him and tried to rehab him or more likeky just end his pain. Does anyone have access to USTA yearbooks ? His name was Jerobe's Byrd and i doubt that he ever raced again after the sale. This would have been in the late sixties or early seventies.

      I was working for one of the top trainer/drivers in the country, but it was one of his second trainers (also a driver) who made some bad decisions about this horse. The owners of this horse were very rich and had a lovely vacation home on the ocean. The second trainer kept this poor horse racing so he could have use of that vacation home.

      When the trainer came to town circuit week and saw the condition my horse was in he ordered that exercise and racing stop and the horse be put in a sale. The second trainer was soon let go. Not soon enough for Jerobe's Byrd though.

      Since people can do whatever they wish to their own property on their own property, some will push 2 yr olds beyond what is healthy for them in the long run. But the public arena is where i would like to see the riding of 2 yr olds be abolished because of all the aforementioned reasons in paragraph one that drive people to go to extremes. JMO
      We put blame where blame is due.
      Just because you knew one two year old that was mismanaged by a bad trainer and situation, that doesn't mean it is because it was a two year old in that situation, but because that was a bad trainer and situation.
      Cause and effect don't add in your story.
      If you want to blame someone, blame the bad management, not that he was started as a two year old, because that same could have happened if he was older.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        Youre right, thats just one story. I experienced a lot more but dont want to clog this thread about TWH up with all that. There are the other trainers who decided not to train certain 2 yr olds but rather give them more time to grow. And trainers who backed off at the first sign of a problem and gave the horse some pasture rest.

        Im talking harness horses here. The point is, in times of need (economy, pushy owner, trainer needing that training income coming in, etc) there are those who will push a horse beyond its limits. And i dont think its good horsemanship to ask a 2 yr old to give its all. There are those horses with such big hearts that they will race over pain and hurt themselves. They get in a zone. I will never think its OK to ask that of a 2 yr old. Ive seen lightly raced stakes 2 yr olds come out of the season okay, and ive seen many develop problems that is now part of them. Kinda like flipping a coin, maybe the horse wont be harmed, maybe it will. I dont like those odds.
        from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

        Comment


        • This is what they are trying to stop

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y

          And as an old race tracker I've always hated running two year olds. Even the stress on most 3 year olds is too much, but it takes $$$ to keep a baby around for another year so I dont' see it happening there soon. The young horses of the past were a different animal. More hardy and less specialized. Besides, do any of the twh riders look like they could make a jockey's weight?

          I've heard all the arguements but still have my own opinion.
          Last edited by CFFarm; Aug. 8, 2012, 07:48 PM.
          Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

          Comment


          • i don't think i have ever seen jockey weight in an adult class of Tn walkers,alot of very large framed gooseneckin men and many many wide butted females. some lite riders but very very few.

            Comment


            • I hate to see a 2 y/o ridden by some man, or a big butted mama. Their bones are not fused yet. Radiographs would show if their bones are fused or not, but the Lickers aren't gonna pay for that. They simply don't care.

              Comment


              • The same old horse argument, MY property I can do whatever I want, HSUS is the devil and want take all our animals away. Sound familiar? Look at gun ownership, one stinking restricting law will send NRA people to rabid frothing at the mouth, "they wanna take our guns away, waaahhhh!" Total BS. ( I am a gun owner BTW.)

                Propaganda! All of it! Sad thing, people believe it.

                I've had 2 year olds in professional training working HARD. However they were big and the trainer was a sprite. I am a sprite. Fortunately the one I still own is completely sound and clean legged at 14 years. Merely backing a 2 year is not the issue nor has it ever been. Hard training at 2 is just plain bad, ignorant, greedy, taking a short cut, horse husbandry. No two ways about it.

                Stop Big Lick!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                  The same old horse argument, MY property I can do whatever I want, HSUS is the devil and want take all our animals away. Sound familiar? Look at gun ownership, one stinking restricting law will send NRA people to rabid frothing at the mouth, "they wanna take our guns away, waaahhhh!" Total BS. ( I am a gun owner BTW.)

                  Propaganda! All of it! Sad thing, people believe it.

                  I've had 2 year olds in professional training working HARD. However they were big and the trainer was a sprite. I am a sprite. Fortunately the one I still own is completely sound and clean legged at 14 years. Merely backing a 2 year is not the issue nor has it ever been. Hard training at 2 is just plain bad, ignorant, greedy, taking a short cut, horse husbandry. No two ways about it.

                  Stop Big Lick!
                  You may have missed that they want to wholesale ban riding 2 year olds, not just how they may be ridden.

                  If you believe or not quite what the HSUS is doing to eliminate animal use, just remember, if you are wrong, you will be one more loser right along with everyone else.

                  Comment


                  • Will these three year olds be next?
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NImjRhM_APs

                    No one can possibly think those horses weren't ridden hard as 2 YOs.

                    One thing about nailing on talent is that those TWHs are ridden in nothing but straight lines 'in gait' and not for very long.

                    Comment


                    • It is not at all amusing to me that folks can visit this thread and be of a mind that stuff like the HPA is to be feared or hard fought as it might restrict our pleasures with our horses in some way.

                      WITW, Sunridge1 et al - you said it well. Very well. Hard for me to believe people have no concept of why such rules are needed. But there will always be unreasonable fearful people. That is how this thread came to be. Unreasonable fearful people looked the other way and allowed it.

                      Roy Rocks! I can see a whole line of TWH with reference to Roy in their names, much like the current trend of gangster low down names TWH pedigrees currently sport. If I was running a breeding barn, I would have me some CHesters (as in Gipson) and some Roys as well.

                      It is fun to look ahead to the new future of this breed isn't it???

                      Keep it rolling! Write those letters and move it.
                      from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
                        This is what they are trying to stop

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y

                        And as an old race tracker I've always hated running two year olds. Even the stress on most 3 year olds is too much, but it takes $$$ to keep a baby around for another year so I dont' see it happening there soon. The young horses of the past were a different animal. More hardy and less specialized. Besides, do any of the twh riders look like they could make a jockey's weight?

                        I've heard all the arguements but still have my own opinion.
                        Just curious here - Has anyone looked up the participants in that class to see if any are violators on HPA??? And to my eye - the "winner" is off. You see it in the off nod. Poor horse. Love the way the guy wallops him in the flanks to come into the line up. Great horsemanship no??? Splendid show no???? The sorry horse deserved the snatching and kicking I am sure.

                        Hey!!! Tell me something... what is to stop us from putting little foals under saddle... or maybe yearlings??? It would be a blast!!! And hey - if they break down - well we will just breed us some more right?? fun fun fun.

                        We don't need no rules.
                        from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                          Just curious here - Has anyone looked up the participants in that class to see if any are violators on HPA??? And to my eye - the "winner" is off. You see it in the off nod. Poor horse. Love the way the guy wallops him in the flanks to come into the line up. Great horsemanship no??? Splendid show no???? The sorry horse deserved the snatching and kicking I am sure.

                          Hey!!! Tell me something... what is to stop us from putting little foals under saddle... or maybe yearlings??? It would be a blast!!! And hey - if they break down - well we will just breed us some more right?? fun fun fun.

                          We don't need no rules.
                          I think the point some are missing is not that "we don't need rules", but that we don't need animal rights extremists making the rules.
                          Blanket statements of "well, lets ban riding two year olds" are the absurd proposals that will come from that and are not going to help what is wrong here.
                          By the same idea of just banning riding two year olds, I would say just ban TWH and you will also eliminate what is wrong in TWH showing.
                          Right, senseless, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

                          Lets just ban all we don't like.
                          For me, no more pads/stacks, or grotesque odd gaited horses, no NASCAR, no commercial sports like football and basketball, golf and tennis and while I am God for a day, no more drought also.

                          Seriously, keep making the rules that help curb abuses and make them strong enough to throw the abusers in a dungeon.
                          Letting animal rights extremist groups, with their agendas to eliminate all animal uses, make rules like not riding two year olds in general, rules that will affect so many others than the ones here, when riding two year olds is not the problem anyway?
                          Senseless.

                          Comment


                          • History speaks volumes about why we need the HPA,it also says loads about needing a group that will draw back the curtains so those who think act and feel above the HPA LAW can be brought out into the light of truth about Soring.

                            Horse groups could have done what HSUS, they knew that the TWH BL had very very bad violators,what did they do,started their own show system.
                            walked away,HSUS did not walk away,Mr.Dane stayed,waited and when the tape came out he used it to open a curtain that would not be CLOSED just because the Shelbyville Slime said close it.

                            Now a judge has seen the pain these horses take at the hands of greedy heartless trainers and owners,and ceo's like Meadows,he has known always known that the WGC are sored in some way.
                            Mullins went to VET school,he learned that dog walking drag is not and has never been the NATURAL WAY of going for a TWH.but he saw $$$$$$$ signs, so he helped men like Meadows, McConnell get this ABUSE accepted in SHELBTVILLE and the Walking horse world for the most part.

                            at this point and TIME i could really cae less about HSUS stopping people from having animals,I'll cross that bridge after this battle is WON

                            THE BATTLE AT HAND IS TO STOP SORING IN MY LIFE TIME.

                            Comment


                            • I'm going to quote part of the five demands set forth by the HSUS of the TWHNC:

                              FOR THE HORSE: Eliminate horses from competition, and from any property owned, leased or used by Celebration, Inc. if there is evidence of the application of one of several common soring techniques, including the use of all stacks, action devices or bands; the use of shoes weighing more than two pounds; the use of tail braces which require the tail to be cut; and the riding of two year olds under saddle.


                              While I understand that this specific letter is directed at TWHNC alone, it it my belief that the HSUS is little more than two steps away from:


                              FOR THE HORSE: Eliminate the riding of two year olds under saddle.


                              Some will not be bothered by that. Some will.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
                                History speaks volumes about why we need the HPA,it also says loads about needing a group that will draw back the curtains so those who think act and feel above the HPA LAW can be brought out into the light of truth about Soring.

                                Horse groups could have done what HSUS, they knew that the TWH BL had very very bad violators,what did they do,started their own show system.
                                walked away,HSUS did not walk away,Mr.Dane stayed,waited and when the tape came out he used it to open a curtain that would not be CLOSED just because the Shelbyville Slime said close it.

                                Now a judge has seen the pain these horses take at the hands of greedy heartless trainers and owners,and ceo's like Meadows,he has known always known that the WGC are sored in some way.
                                Mullins went to VET school,he learned that dog walking drag is not and has never been the NATURAL WAY of going for a TWH.but he saw $$$$$$$ signs, so he helped men like Meadows, McConnell get this ABUSE accepted in SHELBTVILLE and the Walking horse world for the most part.

                                at this point and TIME i could really cae less about HSUS stopping people from having animals,I'll cross that bridge after this battle is WON

                                THE BATTLE AT HAND IS TO STOP SORING IN MY LIFE TIME.
                                Agreed. I don't care where the help came from, and I'm sure the horses don't either.

                                Comment


                                • It is not the role of "other" horse groups to document TWH's and Big Lick. Ask the average QH or Appy breeder about the TWH and they will not know what Big Lick is...having never seen it.

                                  Mr Dane has TWENTY FIVE YEARS of involvement and he did not accomplish much other than to promote other non BL shows.

                                  HSUS ONLY became involved due to the amount of money they will take in under the guise that THEY will protect the horse. Hence that ten thousand dollar turn in a violator...oh wait...that had been on their books for over 5 years

                                  HSUS provided some good material and I will give them that. They have done NOTHING since...they are not offering to provide trained show soring testers..they will do nothing that will cost them money.

                                  If they can eliminate soring enroute to eliminating horse shows and horse ownership so much the better

                                  YOu will not cross "that" bridge after it is a law. Once a law is in place it will not be overturned "in YOUR lifetime" and that is a risk I am not willing to take.

                                  READ HISTORY...READ WORLD WAR TWO...alarmist? absolutely...Those who refuse to read history are bound to relive it.

                                  It all started with getting rid of the dirty Jew bankers who were bankrupting Germany...even Jews said...they will only take the bankers...then they came for the manufactures, business men, old people, kids and then the final goal...extermination of all Jew dogs.

                                  Don't ever think the elimination of animal ownership is NOT the goal.
                                  The Elephant in the room

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by walknsound View Post
                                    Agreed. I don't care where the help came from, and I'm sure the horses don't either.
                                    Very shortsighted and shortsighted followers/defenders is what those groups are counting on.

                                    Comment


                                    • A Licker runs the show again.
                                      http://www.t-g.com/story/1880014.html

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                                        Very shortsighted and shortsighted followers/defenders is what those groups are counting on.
                                        Relax, the sky is not falling! The elimination of owning animals is "pie in the sky" for these groups, this is still America, and it simply ain't happening. Meanwhile, if some good comes of it for the TWH, I'm grateful.

                                        Comment


                                        • let me see, the end of SORING is going to cause all of us to give-up our RIGHT to own a HORSE.What PLANET do you live on or in.

                                          The USET,the AQHA the ASB all the breed reg,would be up in ARMS over anything within a nats eyebrow of what you think is going to happen.

                                          why are you all trying to spread that crap anyway. this is about the pain and suffering of the Walking Horse,and about those who think they are above the LAW.NOT the long term agenda of HSUS.

                                          I don't drink Canadian KOOL-AID jones

                                          Comment

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