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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Again it is great all the information you all are finding and sharing!!
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      Yeah its a real rollercoaster isnt it ?
      from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

      Comment


      • SHOW HIO cry individual constitutional rights,what about the rights of the TWH. if these folks aren't careful they will have more at the CELEBRATION than USDA.

        New York will get a break. how wide is the public right of way to the celebration grounds any way.

        we are still watching folks. let the games begin.

        Comment


        • BINGO

          Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
          [
          B]who is the skunk in the wood pile.[/B]

          in 2010 David Landrum had (SHOW) rule violations (2099) covered up. by whom Mullins

          so when Cotten asked about Jose's Wine and Rose,did he (Cotten) open a can of worns that Mullins did not want opened now Cotten is bein taken down.to protect the owner and LANDRUM? that horse was in Landrum"s barn. for how long and for what reason.

          Landrum has violations as far back as 1992,from the USDA.He's as dirty as Jackie the Jerk.

          How many Jackie the Jerks are out there
          NAIL ON THE HEAD

          Comment


          • Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
            SHOW HIO cry individual constitutional rights,what about the rights of the TWH. if these folks aren't careful they will have more at the CELEBRATION than USDA.

            New York will get a break. how wide is the public right of way to the celebration grounds any way.

            we are still watching folks. let the games begin.
            This is one of the most confused postings I've ever seen on the COTH Forum.

            Maybe you want to rethink and restate your concerns.

            G.
            Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

            Comment


            • Mandatory Penalties

              Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
              is the name Walking show horse industry the new name for BIG LICK.

              this is another smoke screen. its to stop the committee from making any chages to the HPA.

              if Mullins really wanted to help the walking horse he'd be calling for the end of the BIG LICK.

              Mullins did not have a problem hammering Cotten,so why can't the SHOW keep up the good work Doc.

              because,some of his (Mullins) buddys would have to go down.
              Department of Justice has already made the Mandatory Penalties part of the HPA. They were filed in the Registry and the USDA had a listening session to discuss what that meant for the industry. Of course the BL supporters cried and whined on the call "don't take our horse away" but the fact that this already will be part of the HPA. YOU ARE SO RIGHT! If Mullin's gave 2 cents for the horse he would be demanding that the chains and stacks go away. AVMA/AAEP/TVA have all come out with statements calling for the BAN on stacks and chains it's time folks.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                This article is a major problem with its inconsistencies.

                Martha Day states her horse is skittish and frightens easily due to the abuse..that he cowers in the corner of a stall if she has a measuring stick in her hand (if that is so why would she continue to carry a measuring stick?) and then later, she states he is stoic from the abuse..therefore he won't move.

                I have NO DOUBT that her claims of abuse based on the front let scars is true. It is her statements that do not hold water.
                Not entirely implausible.

                My horse was sored before I got him. I've had him fifteen years and even still he will cower, run away, scramble at the stall wall, try to escape in the right/wrong circumstances. Sometimes he reacts to men with loud voices, someone walking past his stall with a lunge whip, getting too close to him with a board or something similar (think trying to do a repair in a stall next to him or replace a board in his pasture too close to him).

                When he goes into that panic mode all you've got to do is get hold of his halter and put him in the cross-ties, and you'll see him mentally check-out; he freezes up, stands stock still and trembles a bit. One could describe as instantly going from a sheer panic to "stoic".

                When that fear response is triggered it's nothing like when he gives off a little spook on the trail or getting a little belligerent over something he doesn't want to do. It's hard to describe but to someone that knows him it's easy to see the difference between his "that scares me, or I don't want to do that" and his "Oh dear God PLEASE don't take me back to that part of my life" reactions.

                I can totally understand where that woman is coming from as she describes her horse, my horse is the same way. And it does make handling the horse tricky, makes them unpredictable.

                Comment


                • Guilherme

                  Thank you, i so appreciate your acknowledgment.

                  i'm sure some here understand what i'm saying without saying.

                  we are watching.

                  Comment


                  • Today Jackie the Jerk goes to court in Fayette Co. for animal abuse charges. If anyone finds out what happened PLEASE post. Should be news coverage. I'll be looking.

                    Comment


                    • http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120626/NEWS01/306260016/Tennessee-Walking-Horse-group-sues-USDA-over-fines?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

                      Text below, forgot some can't see in the Tenn., without paying.
                      Last edited by walknsound; Jun. 26, 2012, 10:13 AM. Reason: Added to

                      Comment


                      • A leading Tennessee Walking Horse industry group sued the U.S. Department of Agriculture on Monday, contending that the government’s effort to impose minimum penalties for soring and abusing horses is unconstitutional.

                        Earlier this month, the USDA announced it would put in place a rule requiring organizations that inspect horses to assess minimum penalties to violators of the Horse Protection Act, the 1970 law that makes it illegal to show or transport a sored horse.

                        SHOW Inc., the Shelbyville-based horse industry organization, filed the lawsuit in the Northern District of Texas in Fort Worth, claiming that the new rules violate the constitutional right of trainers and owners to due process under the law.

                        The lawsuit seeks to prevent the USDA from putting the rule into effect July 9. Two other plaintiffs — Contender Farms and Mike McGartland, a Tarrant County, Texas, resident and owner and general partner with Contender Farms — joined in the lawsuit.

                        In a statement, SHOW said the new rules punish organizations that are working to change the Tennessee Walking Horse industry.

                        “Reformers within the walking show horse industry are committed to self-regulation as demonstrated by recent efforts, but the USDA’s regulations are not only unconstitutional, they unfairly punish those most aggressively working to clean up the industry,” SHOW President Stephen Mullins said in a statement.

                        Keith Dane, equine protection director for the Humane Society of the United States, slammed SHOW for filing the lawsuit.

                        “SHOW’s decision to file a lawsuit trying to block USDA’s efforts at reform says everything about whether this industry has the will or ability to clean up its act on its own,” he said by email.

                        USDA spokesman David Sacks said Monday that the department’s Office of General Counsel has received the lawsuit but declined to comment because it remains pending.

                        'Private tribunals'
                        Soring is the practice of using chemicals and other methods, including putting foreign objects in the horses’ hooves, to produce a higher gait. Dripping harsh chemicals on the horses’ front feet forces them, because of pain, to lift their legs higher. The walk is prized in walking horse competitions.

                        In announcing the new rules this month, the USDA said it will now require horses found in violation of the Horse Protection Act to be dismissed from the show. If a horse is sored, the new rule also will require those responsible for the soring to be suspended from participating in shows, exhibitions, sales or auctions. The length of the suspension would vary, depending on the number of prior violations.

                        The federal government has only enough funding to send its own inspectors to a small fraction of the more than 450 horse shows held across the nation each year. Instead, it relies on a form of industry self-regulation, with approved horse industry organizations conducting inspections.

                        USDA officials said that in the past some organizations have declined to issue penalties stiff enough to deter soring. With the new rule, the USDA said, competitors will know that inspections and enforcement will take place consistently at all shows.

                        SHOW, in its lawsuit, argues that the USDA can’t use the industry organizations to enforce federal laws without giving individuals proper due process.

                        The new rule does not give accused trainers or owners the right to appeal, according to the complaint. Using the organizations as “private tribunals” violates the Constitution by unlawfully giving judicial powers to private entities, the lawsuit contends.

                        SHOW and other industry groups have long cited a 98 percent compliance rate with the Horse Protection Act. But a recent analysis by The Tennessean showed a significant difference between the number of violations issued by the industry when USDA officials are present and when not.

                        When the USDA was present, horse industry inspectors found seven times as many violations of the Horse Protection Act.

                        SHOW cites efforts
                        SHOW officials say they should not be lumped in with other industry organizations. The group has said it is tougher than other horse industry organizations and points to efforts it has under way to cut down on horse soring.

                        For instance, a new swabbing program began June 15. The program uses sophisticated technology to test for chemicals and masking agents, such as drugs that numb pain, that might help disguise whether a horse is sored.

                        In a separate statement to The Tennessean, SHOW said what is important is not how people perceive the lawsuit but making sure horses are protected. SHOW said it supports consistent enforcement of federal law.

                        “It is not an issue of uniform penalties, as we would like the entire industry to adopt the strict rules SHOW has. The issue is forcing the industry to prosecute bad actors as if it was a court system, something that would hinder our ability to focus on real reform,” SHOW said in its statement.

                        The Walking Horse industry has struggled with soring for decades. It came back into the spotlight last month after an undercover video released by the Humane Society of the United States showed nationally known trainer Jackie McConnell soring and abusing horses at his Collierville farm. McConnell was indicted for his actions and pleaded guilty to felony conspiracy to violate the Horse Protection Act.

                        Contact Duane W. Gang at 615-726-5982 or dgang@tennessean.com. Follow

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
                          Not entirely implausible.

                          My horse was sored before I got him. I've had him fifteen years and even still he will cower, run away, scramble at the stall wall, try to escape in the right/wrong circumstances. Sometimes he reacts to men with loud voices, someone walking past his stall with a lunge whip, getting too close to him with a board or something similar (think trying to do a repair in a stall next to him or replace a board in his pasture too close to him).

                          When he goes into that panic mode all you've got to do is get hold of his halter and put him in the cross-ties, and you'll see him mentally check-out; he freezes up, stands stock still and trembles a bit. One could describe as instantly going from a sheer panic to "stoic".

                          When that fear response is triggered it's nothing like when he gives off a little spook on the trail or getting a little belligerent over something he doesn't want to do. It's hard to describe but to someone that knows him it's easy to see the difference between his "that scares me, or I don't want to do that" and his "Oh dear God PLEASE don't take me back to that part of my life" reactions.

                          I can totally understand where that woman is coming from as she describes her horse, my horse is the same way. And it does make handling the horse tricky, makes them unpredictable.
                          When they check out like that they won't move. And they won't hardly guly let you pick up their feet...but then out of the cross ties they can panic and move...the cross ties are often a trigger.

                          As for some of the articles errors...welll
                          ...the horse owner did not write it. Blame the author for those

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by walknsound View Post
                            http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120626/NEWS01/306260016/Tennessee-Walking-Horse-group-sues-USDA-over-fines?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News
                            Huh. So SHOW is suing the government because they don't want to be told they cannot allow illegal activities within their organization. Nice.

                            Love 'em or hate 'em, Kieth Dane summed it up pretty well with the quote "SHOW’s decision to file a lawsuit trying to block USDA’s efforts at reform says everything about whether this industry has the will or ability to clean up its act on its own”.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by katarine View Post
                              When they check out like that they won't move. And they won't hardly guly let you pick up their feet...but then out of the cross ties they can panic and move...the cross ties are often a trigger.

                              As for some of the articles errors...welll
                              ...the horse owner did not write it. Blame the author for those
                              My horse never moves in the cross-ties (or in hand) when he's in that state. Even if he's freaking out, if you manage to get hold of him or tie him that's what he'll do, every time. Thankfully nowadays his episodes are few and far between but it still happens on the odd occasion. Just locks up, eyes roll back and he starts trembling. If you unhook him and try to lead him away he'll go, but you've gotta be very careful how you handle him or he'll just blow and do everything he can to get away.

                              Can't speak for all horses but I can speak for mine, and that's what he does. And I from what I know of my horse I can kinda visualize what hers does. Maybe I'm off-base, maybe hers behaves similar to mine. I dunno.

                              Comment


                              • Yep...my Chip does not blow up but he does have to have time to come back to earth.

                                Comment


                                • I just wonder how many times the Fed has been sued successfully for anything. I always heard, "Sue the Federal Guvmint-----good Luck!" Hope this is tossed out as a frivilous lawsuit. Appears to me to be a delaying tactic.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                                    Do you feel free to speak for or against the stacks and chains that the TWH are subjected to? I do not recall ever having read anything other than worries about whether any such ban will affect other breeds from you.

                                    Me? I am completely against stacks (and you know that does not mean pads) and chains. What the devices in this extreme produce is horrid and looks the same as a sored horse.

                                    What say you?
                                    I am against soring Period. If chemicals and chains are the cause then that is against the law. I do not believe the TWH needs chains in the show ring. I do not believe the semi tiered stacks should be allowed. There is, as you pointed out, a great difference between pads and stacks.

                                    My comment is about the article. The inconsistencies are what those, who support BL and non interference will pick up on. Also, with not knowledge of horses however have the ability to see inconsistencies will be lost to your cause.

                                    Too many are now crying wolf and claiming their horse was abused. That is the same as every Mom filing for divorce claims the father of sexual abuse. People are becoming cynical and believing less and less of what they read.
                                    The Elephant in the room

                                    Comment


                                    • Used to think my one horse was being very polite when he stood stock still for me during hoof cleaning as my other gelding bit him on the flanks. Now I shudder to think of what may have triggered his politeness.


                                      ETA I am not saying he is abused, but often my farrier, vet or trainer will say they feel he has been abused. He is polite, very responsive and attentive and will leave you in a New York minute if you carry a crop, pitch fork, tool, etc. He only learned to make eye contact when we taught him to "touch" our hand for a treat. He is in many ways a total joy and very dangerous if misunderstood.
                                      from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                      Comment


                                      • Fairfax - I did have the impression you were not in any way in favor of continuing stacks and chains - I just was not sure that you had ever clearly stated it. Thanks for responding.
                                        from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
                                          Read for comprehension Fairfax/Leo. She approached him once loose in a stall. Im sure she would have gotten an entirely different reaction had the horse been in hand or in cross ties. But maybe not, maybe he was one of those horses that fought stewarding. Whats your point Fairfax ? Does that make his scarred pasterns disappear ? Stoic, or cowering in terror - whats the difference ? Both would be logical behaviour of an abused horse.

                                          Day said she once triggered Big ’Un’s memories by approaching with a measuring stick.

                                          “I’m not brandishing it at him, just walking,” she said. “I’m about a 5-5, average-size woman. I go in with this stick, this animal shrank into a corner of his stall and cowered. He was terrified.”
                                          She claims that he was abused and therefore is skittish. To the non TWHBL authority..most people reading know horses are already skittish and "high strung".

                                          My point is: Trainers are accused of beating the horses (caught on tape) so they will fear a beating rather than an examination. It would appear, and it has been claimed by those in the know on this forum, that a horse will endure horrible pain when the examiners touch them and will not move one muscle. Posters have claimed that when they cross tied the horse OR held it by a lead rope, that it had obviously been abused as it would not ever move.

                                          This woman claims her horse not only moves but is terrified AND she makes the claim however where it the show record for a back up?

                                          The overall point is: Those in favor of BL will find every inconsistency and point it out to the media. They will also use the tactic that their charity shows raise money for the poor old vetrans. One poster has already stated they won't ever give to those vetrans as they should have known who they were getting funds from. Pieces like that are fodder AGAINST your movement.
                                          The Elephant in the room

                                          Comment

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