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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Originally posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
    Quote from the article: "In the trainers’ announcement, association President Jamie Hankins said he was disappointed with the veterinarians’ statement, although he noted, “We are encouraged that it clearly and correctly pointed out that our action device and package cause no harm to our horse.” "

    Huh what? Did the veterinarian's statement really say that action devices and packages were harmless or is this just another case of the trainers twisting words to suit their agenda and sticking their heads in the sand?
    I am satisfied, based upon my experience, that the creation of a BL horse can't be done without causing significant long and short term injury to the horse. The very gait they perform, IMO, will cause injury. But if you were to ask me to cite you a peer reviewed, university level study to back up my opinion I can't do it because none exist. So the Trainer's statement is literally true, if in fact misleading.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      Again from that article:
      http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120616/NEWS21/306160037/Walking-horse-trainers-begin-swab-tests?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

      Independent veterinarians and technicians will perform the tests, with lab results to be reviewed by the Tennessee Walking Show Horse Organization, a newly established group that has helped organize and fund the testing, with results to be further reviewed by an outside attorney.

      Why an attorney ? Outside attorney ? Outsider ? Right......

      Any trainer that refuses to submit to the testing will not be allowed to enter the competition and will receive a two-week suspension. However, it takes seven to 10 days to get results back from the forensic swabs, so the penalty might be delayed.

      Delayed til when ? After show season ?

      That newly formed TWSHO group (the foxes) is not the appropriate group to be overseeing testing and results. Buncha good ole boys got together at a show a couple weeks back and started soliciting for money. What gives them the right to be in charge of a testing program ? Doesnt the USDA have oversite of the DQP program ? Would love to see their member roster to compare it to the HPA violation list. I wonder what the USDA thinks about this new developement. I would not trust any veterinarian, technician or attorney hired by this new group. They are paying for the testing program. Just more web tangling and conflict of interest.
      from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
        I am satisfied, based upon my experience, that the creation of a BL horse can't be done without causing significant long and short term injury to the horse. The very gait they perform, IMO, will cause injury. But if you were to ask me to cite you a peer reviewed, university level study to back up my opinion I can't do it because none exist. So the Trainer's statement is literally true, if in fact misleading.

        G.
        This is just SO true, G. Stacks of pads and chains can't help but cause injury, BUT no real scientific study has ever been done. Wonder why? Money, money, money.

        The statement from the trainer's president is an example of how they (TWH trainers, breeders and show interests) have wormed, wiggled, waggled, and bent the truth for decades.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          A friend was over yesterday who has access to a large email distribution list so i was bringing her up to date on the latest BL info. Her husband has a "93 model TWH grandson of Sun's Delight D who spent his early yrs in TN and went thru 8 owners in TN and KY. She said the hair grows thin on his pasterns and she was somewhat aware of what soring was all about, but not the niddy griddy details. When i told her about stewarding, she burst into tears. After a couple years with them, this horse still goes into checkout mode when put in crossties. He gets a blank look and will not move. Learning about stewarding explained his behaviour.

          When they first got him a couple yrs ago, he was so odd acting they decided to hit his reset button and just put him out with the herd for six months. Also his heels were horridly contracted, It has taken a long time to get his heels widened. Their other TWH who recently passed away at 30 had not been a big lick horse. They had gotten this new horse to slowly bond with him as they knew time was ticking away for the old boy who was her husband's heart horse. I didnt cry, I told i did all my crying years ago, now im just frickin MAD and determined to do any little thing that might matter.
          from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
            A friend was over yesterday who has access to a large email distribution list so i was bringing her up to date on the latest BL info. Her husband has a "93 model TWH grandson of Sun's Delight D who spent his early yrs in TN and went thru 8 owners in TN and KY. She said the hair grows thin on his pasterns and she was somewhat aware of what soring was all about, but not the niddy griddy details. When i told her about stewarding, she burst into tears. After a couple years with them, this horse still goes into checkout mode when put in crossties. He gets a blank look and will not move. Learning about stewarding explained his behaviour.

            When they first got him a couple yrs ago, he was so odd acting they decided to hit his reset button and just put him out with the herd for six months. Also his heels were horridly contracted, It has taken a long time to get his heels widened. Their other TWH who recently passed away at 30 had not been a big lick horse. They had gotten this new horse to slowly bond with him as they knew time was ticking away for the old boy who was her husband's heart horse. I didnt cry, I told i did all my crying years ago, now im just frickin MAD and determined to do any little thing that might matter.
            You know this statement finally made my lightbulb turn on. My TWH stands stock still tied while I'm around him, it's even hard to get him to move a step back or forward. After 5 years of very gentle handling (I knew he was handled harshly) he still cringes if I move toward him too fast but he NEVER moves a foot. That lower lip just bounces in anxiety making a pitiful popping noise. Just this year he finally let me handle his ears without his eyes rolling back.

            He was only 4 when I brought him home. He was originally purchased at a sale (by a friend) in KY. I wonder....

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
              I am satisfied, based upon my experience, that the creation of a BL horse can't be done without causing significant long and short term injury to the horse. The very gait they perform, IMO, will cause injury. But if you were to ask me to cite you a peer reviewed, university level study to back up my opinion I can't do it because none exist. So the Trainer's statement is literally true, if in fact misleading.

              G.

              TOTALLY TRUE G. TOTALLY.

              They are messed up mentally and physically. Not sure which is worse. What they may do is short term, but is long term injury and damage. IOW usually the horse can not stay sound, so the horse is retired, early, like 2-3 yrs old. They start them 12 months to 18 months. Promptly show them at 2 yr old.

              I hate this for these horses. It is horrible to watch.

              Comment


              • WalkintheWoods and Sunridge 1- The behavior you are describing for the two horses definitely sounds like the way former BL horses who have been stewarded and/or sored act. I am so sorry.

                We owned sons and daughters of both Sun's Delight D and Pride of Midnight, as well as the resulting offspring from our two stallions. I can honestly say that every son or daughter of Sun's Delight were delights to be around. They had such sweet and gentle dispositions. Some of the PoM horses from time to time could be difficult-- especially those we had gotten AFTER their BL careers were over.

                It used to be talked around and about that some trainers really didn't like horses by PoM because they would "tell on you" if they were sored and didn't always easily submit to stewarding.

                The Sun's Delight offspring were usually very docile and stoic souls. Trainers had to "do more" to them to get the same BL they could get from a PoM horse, so they probably in general endured more of the soring but less of the stewarding-- if you follow what I am saying.

                We had a mare tht was a daughter of Ebony Masterpiece who was pefectly fine unless you tried to put her in cross ties or tried to ride her in a ring-- then she would come unglued. Rather than enter a ring, she would rear up so high that she would fall on her rider. Same behavior if you attempted to put her in cross ties. But she was fine with being tied with a single rope attached to the halter ring inder her chin. She was fine for trail riding or working cattle in the pastures.

                It is so sad what so many of these walkers have endured for so long.

                Comment


                • In Shelbyville Times Gazette:
                  http://www.t-g.com/story/1860582.html

                  More Licker BS to people who don't know any better.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    Originally posted by walknsound View Post
                    In Shelbyville Times Gazette:
                    http://www.t-g.com/story/1860582.html

                    More Licker BS to people who don't know any better.
                    The article mentions 2 horses exhibited but they didnt include a picture of the BL horse. Pretty weak article but Doyle Meadows got his 2¢ in. blech
                    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                    Comment


                    • OLE DOYLE is very worried that this is going to put a big hole in the MONEY bucket at the Celebration,just 60+/_ days before the big money making SHOW. He has to do something even if it is just show the flat shod unabused TWH. in western tack and attire.

                      not many BL folks are going to be gaming for the inspections at the Celebration this yr.they are still waiting for this all to blow over as in the past.

                      once Jackie the Jerk goes to court in June,and his fate is known than the trainers can start their game plans.if He (Jackie) just get a slap on the wrist,it will be same o same o.
                      if they throw the book at him. than all the trainers will have to come -up with NEW ways to pass a SORED horse thru DQP.

                      the USDA also have only 60 + - days to get more teeth in the law to help the Horses that are bein ABUSED.

                      Comment


                      • OLE DOYLE is very worried that this is going to put a big hole in the MONEY bucket at the Celebration,just 60+/_ days before the big money making SHOW. He has to do something even if it is just show the flat shod unabused TWH. in western tack and attire.

                        not many BL folks are going to be gaming for the inspections at the Celebration this yr.they are still waiting for this all to blow over as in the past.

                        once Jackie the Jerk goes to court in June,and his fate is known than the trainers can start their game plans.if He (Jackie) just get a slap on the wrist,it will be same o same o.
                        if they throw the book at him. than all the trainers will have to come -up with NEW ways to pass a SORED horse thru DQP.

                        the USDA also have only 60 + - days to get more teeth in the law to help the Horses that are bein ABUSED.

                        Comment


                        • arrpaso- IMO, you are 100% correct in your assessment about the trainers waiting to see what will happen to ole Jackie. But don't think they they haven't been "training" as usual while waiting.They may have been "scared off" as far as showing "iffy" BL horses at some of shows leading up to the Celebration.

                          They are not going to risk "getting a ticket" right before the BIG SHOW. But you can bet they will turn up for the Celebration-- too much prestige at stake and probably too much pressure from clients who have been paying through the nose all year-- waiting fir a chance to show this one show- THE Celebration-- especially the "high rollers" whose horses have a chance at the WGC-- especially since at least one McConnell will not be there this year-- no matter what the verdict on state cruelty charges.

                          But there is no doubt in my mind that this has already impacted the boys in Tennessee in more ways than one. If show entries are down as a result, that hurts the shows. If the trainers are not going to the shows, that hurts there pocketbooks becasue duirng the height of show season the rake in extra-- all those hauling mileage fees, and per diems fees while showing-- not to mention prize money if they win-- usually awarded to 1-3 places in the bigger shows.

                          I think that if the USDA comes fully armed (with all kinds of things to sniff out chemicals, and locate inflamation & etc) and comes with lots of USDA vets to the Celebration, they will be able to catch quite a few, if not all the cheaters.

                          Anytime the Celebration can be affected, it hurts the BL sorers in the pocketbook in the long term becuse they can't get the bragging rights that brings mares to their stallions. Remember the year the Championship stake was cancelled? Don't think that didn't make then take notice. Unfortunately, they just redoubled their efforts at stewarding.

                          If the stacks of bads and the action devices are no longer allowed, the artificial BL will vanish and we can go back to showing sould naturallyt gaited horses as long as we keep the cheaters at bay-- that includes those that show flat shod, too.

                          Comment


                          • it would not shock me if the WGC @ Celebration was a Flat Shod this yr .just to get some of the Heat off the BL folks than the Sept,court date rolls around and it will be work for 2013. why else is Doyle show casing a flat shod in western attire. it will be the NEW Image for 2012.

                            and i hope in the few months between the USDA,can get more support.
                            Stop Soring and put and END to Big LICK.once and for all

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
                              it would not shock me if the WGC @ Celebration was a Flat Shod this yr .just to get some of the Heat off the BL folks than the Sept,court date rolls around and it will be work for 2013. why else is Doyle show casing a flat shod in western attire. it will be the NEW Image for 2012.

                              and i hope in the few months between the USDA,can get more support.
                              Stop Soring and put and END to Big LICK.once and for all
                              They may have shown one horse in Western attire, but the article said Allison Thorson showed her horse in Big Lick fashion and a spectator wondered how the horse could walk in those shoes.

                              I am not familiar with these people, but of those listed in this article, which have received fines for soring/violations by USDA? Has Allison Thorson? Are there readily-available records of the horses which have been found to be sored at these shows? I am wondering if the two horses, Red Ruby, and Roll the Gold, have public records of being sored.
                              Last edited by PeteyPie; Jun. 18, 2012, 03:37 AM. Reason: grammar
                              "Random capitAlization really Makes my day." -- AndNirina

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by bayou_bengal View Post
                                One man, who was trying to end the soring by "taking over" the TWHBEA from within by getting anti-soring people elected to its board of directors in a board of directors election in the 1970s, was found murdered at his middle Tennessee farm. The election that year became a ''proxy fight" with the anti-soring side and the "status quo" side battling to gather the most proxies form members to use in casting votes for members of their 'tickets." Much of the voting is done by proxy because many members did not travel to Lewisburg to personally cast their votes.

                                The incident was mentioned in Echo of Hoofbeats by Dr. Bob Womack. This along with Biograohy of the Tennnessee Walking Horse by a man named Ben Greene are considered the most complete "histories" of the breed to date. Greene's book was published before Womacks- Womack's has been re-preinted in a second edition that has more photos than the first.

                                I believe both editions mention the murder. It is unsolved and the actual motive has not been discovered either. Some think it was a robbery or burglary attempt gone wrong. Some people think it is related to the soring controversy. And there some who think it was related to the man's other non-horse-relaed business interests, and may have even been a "hit" ordered by the "Dixie Maffia."
                                I wanted to bump this up because you made such a good point to illustrate the tactics of violence and fear used by the monsters who practice Bick Lick and all the cruel practices that accompany it.
                                "Random capitAlization really Makes my day." -- AndNirina

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by JackieBlue View Post
                                  You know, soring and action devices aside, the movement that some have come to believe is desirable is devastating to the horse's body in and of itself. IOW, even if there were a "humane" way to achieve the BL gait, that way of going demolishes the back and all joints, front and hind. Horses just aren't meant to sit on their asses and crawl along, flinging their front limbs hither and yon. I've seen countless BL horses after they can no longer "perform" and the only word for the condition they're in at the end of their "show careers" is NAUSEATING. Crippled doesn't even begin to describe them.
                                  As for the "keep it on the inside" method of stopping the abuse, if that were going to be effective, it would have been. Maybe TWH's WILL cease to exist if BL is done away with. So be it. Do we really want to preserve a breed of horse just to abuse the crap out of it?? Yes, they've been a tradition in the south. So was slavery, cockfighting and a number of othery unsavory passtimes. When is the American south going to stop being the embodiment of ignorance, cruelty and stubbornness??
                                  This needs repeating as well.
                                  "Random capitAlization really Makes my day." -- AndNirina

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
                                    it would not shock me if the WGC @ Celebration was a Flat Shod this yr .just to get some of the Heat off the BL folks than the Sept,court date rolls around and it will be work for 2013. why else is Doyle show casing a flat shod in western attire. it will be the NEW Image for 2012.

                                    and i hope in the few months between the USDA,can get more support.
                                    Stop Soring and put and END to Big LICK.once and for all
                                    Flat Shod (Plantation) and Light Shod horses can be every bit as sore as a BL horse. The desired movement is a "junior varsity" version of the BL and it carries the same basic risks to the horse (if, perhaps, not quite as extreme).

                                    These horses are also "stewarded" just as dramatically as a BL horse.

                                    While the BL horse may be the "poster child" of what's wrong it's only the tip of a rather large iceberg.

                                    G.
                                    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                    Comment


                                    • List violations

                                      Originally posted by PeteyPie View Post
                                      They may have shown one horse in Western attire, but the article said Allison Thorson showed her horse in Big Lick fashion and a spectator wondered how the horse could walk in those shoes.

                                      I am not familiar with these people, but of those listed in this article, which have received fines for soring/violations by USDA? Has Allison Thorson? Are there readily-available records of the horses which have been found to be sored at these shows? I am wondering if the two horses, Red Ruby, and Roll the Gold, have public records of being sored.
                                      http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/7674056...rld%5B1%5D.pdf

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
                                        Again from that article:
                                        http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120616/NEWS21/306160037/Walking-horse-trainers-begin-swab-tests?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

                                        Independent veterinarians and technicians will perform the tests, with lab results to be reviewed by the Tennessee Walking Show Horse Organization, a newly established group that has helped organize and fund the testing, with results to be further reviewed by an outside attorney.

                                        Why an attorney ? Outside attorney ? Outsider ? Right......

                                        Any trainer that refuses to submit to the testing will not be allowed to enter the competition and will receive a two-week suspension. However, it takes seven to 10 days to get results back from the forensic swabs, so the penalty might be delayed.

                                        Delayed til when ? After show season ?

                                        That newly formed TWSHO group (the foxes) is not the appropriate group to be overseeing testing and results. Buncha good ole boys got together at a show a couple weeks back and started soliciting for money. What gives them the right to be in charge of a testing program ? Doesnt the USDA have oversite of the DQP program ? Would love to see their member roster to compare it to the HPA violation list. I wonder what the USDA thinks about this new developement. I would not trust any veterinarian, technician or attorney hired by this new group. They are paying for the testing program. Just more web tangling and conflict of interest.

                                        Any winnings by any of the trainer's horses from the time of the infraction to the start of the suspension would also have to e forefitted
                                        I wasn't always a Smurf
                                        Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
                                        "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                                        The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                                        Comment


                                        • Yep

                                          Originally posted by PeteyPie View Post
                                          I wanted to bump this up because you made such a good point to illustrate the tactics of violence and fear used by the monsters who practice Bick Lick and all the cruel practices that accompany it.
                                          Thanks for posting this. You can bet the farm it was related to soring. Rest assured this is not the only case. Also, barns have burned over horses heads, horses found dead in the pasture, people have recieved death threats. I heard of a case where a horse was cloraformed (sp?) in his stall at Celebration to elimate him from competition. This was told to me by someone who was there. More reasons local ordinances won't fly. As I've always said, anyone who will sore a horse will do anything, no conscience. Another example of animal cruelty spreading to people. Sick, sick, people folks. They must be stopped, by whatever means.
                                          Last edited by walknsound; Jun. 18, 2012, 10:21 AM. Reason: Point added

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