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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • #41
    In case anyone missed the broadcast, I found on the HSUS youtube channel. They show more of the undercover video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxVlxT_x-f0

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #42
      The show was good but i wish they would have done more of a comparison of how a normal horse runwalks vs the big lick gait. As the BLers were going around the ring they mentioned that this is the comfortable gait the plantation owners prized. Well not exactly. That is where they should have showed a good runwalkin horse. The BL crowd has done much to breed the good gait out of TWHs.

      They didnt have time to get into much, but i hope it opened some eyes.

      Kudos to Pepsi for pulling support for this years Celebration. PETA and RARAs - why dont you just head on down to Shelbyville (ya know, where horses are being abused) and leave hardworking NYC carriage drivers alone?
      from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

      Comment


      • #43
        Would be interesting to know the other corporate sponsors other than Pepsi who support this cruelty--boycotts and letters can work wonders, and it is all about the money.

        And where are the veterinarians and farriers who work with these horses? It takes a lot of people to support this kind of abuse. It is truly amazing how stupid and callous these people are....

        Comment


        • #44
          You had me, right up until you mentioned working with the HSUS, and that they will be releasing video taken by their undercover agent.

          When was it taken and why is it being released NOW, why was it not turned over to the relevant authorities as it happened? That's chickenshit. HSUS is just in it for the publicity stealing and donations they will get because of it, you are kidding yourselves if you think they give a rats ass for animals.
          Michael: Seems the people who burned me want me for a job.
          Sam: A job? Does it pay?
          Michael: Nah, it's more of a "we'll kill you if you don't do it" type of thing.
          Sam: Oh. I've never liked those.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Grataan View Post
            You had me, right up until you mentioned working with the HSUS,
            Me, too.

            No matter how noble the cause, HSUS invovlement is a deal-breaker for me.
            Proud Member of the League of Weenie Eventers
            Proud Member of the Courageous Weenie Eventers Clique

            Comment


            • #46
              I think it's great that this has finally hit mainstream and I'll take it any way we can get it, even with HSUS's involvement. Deep down in my gut it feels like making a deal with the devil but at least it's out there and was seen by a broad audience.

              Comment


              • #47
                So even though you know there is abuse in the BL world, just because HSUS is involved, then what? It's not true? It's not happening? The horses don't deserve a voice - ANY voice? Nobody else has stepped up to do anything. I'm not a fan of HSUS either but thank goodness someone finally did SOMETHING - albeit they didn't bash the heads in of those a-holes right at that moment (as I wanted to do)....at least a few people other than other horse people have this information.

                Talk about shooting the messenger.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by hundredacres View Post
                  So even though you know there is abuse in the BL world, just because HSUS is involved, then what? It's not true? It's not happening? The horses don't deserve a voice - ANY voice? Nobody else has stepped up to do anything. I'm not a fan of HSUS either but thank goodness someone finally did SOMETHING - albeit they didn't bash the heads in of those a-holes right at that moment (as I wanted to do)....at least a few people other than other horse people have this information.

                  Talk about shooting the messenger.
                  I agree entirely. This is definitely a situation where these things were NOT fabricated.

                  This happens. It happens a lot. Someone needs to be a voice for these animals, and I'd rather it be HSUS than no one.

                  Keith Dane was the HSUS representative in the Nightline video, he was very active with FOSH for quite a while and began working with HSUS in what I think was a large part to get this abuse noticed. He has been actively involved with TWHs for a very long time. He knows what he's talking about.
                  "The best hearts are ever the bravest"

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #49
                    I am conflicted too because of HSUS involvement, but the undercover shots at the McConnell "training" facility kinda speak for themselves. Not interested in supporting HSUS financially but am rather grateful that they were able to get the footage to help expose soring. I think now is the time to take advantage of the momentum and support the cause.

                    As Jennie Jackson said:
                    This is BIGGER than J.McConnell Folks!!.....
                    Here's our chance to WRITE ABC - Congress - Gov- and get RID of PADS and CHAINS on the TWH forever!!
                    Peer Preasure is in our court now LETS USE IT!!!!!
                    what does the public think of this....RIDE IT FOLKS, like it has a saddle on it's back
                    and lets do away with this HIDEOUS,Offensive Eye Sore Division ONCE and for ALL.....
                    If this Report doesn't help get rid of the pads and chains????
                    Then Ya'll DROPPED the BALL BIG TIME and I'm out.
                    It's about the HORSE!! All TWH's!!!


                    I will try to find out the other major sponsors of the Celebration besides Pepsi, so they can be contacted and asked to stop supporting.

                    I will try to get some addresses together today.

                    Lets not let our dislike of HSUS negate the suffering the Big Lick horses have endured for decades.
                    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      I just watched the show (Tivo, I love you). I was a bit disappointed that it didn't go more in depth but its a start. I believe the HSUS video was used to indict McConnell.
                      http://timesfreepress.com/news/2012/...e-soring-case/
                      Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Watched it this a.m. before breakfast. Sometimes this is best done on an empty stomach.

                        Us veterans of the Soring Wars didn't learn anything new. I'd love to know just how the video was made. Whoever did it was pretty good.

                        I've known Keith since the early '90s. He's a first rate fellow. Frankly, I was a bit disapointed when he started an association with the radical animal rights group HSUS. I don't trust HSUS any farther than I could throw my horse trailer. One step in the right direction does not negate their opposition to, and support of bans on, fox hunting, small and large game hunting, etc.

                        One thing that was fairly clealry stated was that the Big Lick is a manufactured gait. If you watched McConnell or any of the other riders they assume that "mad bulldozer driver" position. Look at the position of the horse in the canter. It's such incredibly had equitation it's hard not to pitch the remote at the TV. Yet I understand from those who do this that this position is virtually demanded by the horse's way of going. There might actually be some truth there. I've only ridden a Big Lick horse once and I didn't care for it at all. It's purely a show gait and has no value anywhere else.

                        The Big Lick trainers appear to have embraced the Mythbuster's mantra that "anything worth doing is worth overdoing." Too bad they forget the warning "don't try this at home."

                        The banning of pads and chains will not solve the problem of sored horses. It will not solve the problem of "stewarding." That's clear from the present situation among Flat and Light Shod horses. Pads and chains are the sign of training incompetance. They do work to create certain equine movements, but if you remove them the movement ends, too. Thus they are not "training devices."

                        Do the Big Lickers do this for ribbons? Sometimes. Bragging rights can be valuable in certain social circles. I think mostly it's done for money.

                        I'd love to see the whole thing go away. Maybe when owners say "no" with their dollars it will.

                        G.
                        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          I am not conflicted over abuse. Not at all. It happens and the perpetrators should be held accountable.

                          But I will not ally myself with HSUS.

                          I don't feel confident that after they're done with the easy target of soring TWHs and NYC carriage horses, they won'tcome after eventing and foxhunting and barrel racing and competitive driving and endurance and jumping and reining and...
                          Last edited by CarrieK; May. 17, 2012, 08:45 AM. Reason: forgot an important word. d'oh!
                          Proud Member of the League of Weenie Eventers
                          Proud Member of the Courageous Weenie Eventers Clique

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by CarrieK View Post
                            I am not conflicted over abuse. Not at all. It happens and the perpetrators should be held accountable.

                            But I will not ally myself with HSUS.

                            I don't feel confident that after they're done with the easy target of soring TWHs and NYC carriage horses, they'll come after eventing and foxhunting and barrel racing and competitive driving and endurance and jumping and reining and...
                            They may come after other disciplines, but most of them don't even come close to the widespread abuse that happens in BL so I don't think it would get very far. Everyone agrees that there is abuse in every discipline, but it's typically pockets of abuse and it's not generally accepted as the norm. I could care less if they go after legitimate abuse. There are no grey lines in the abuse in BL - this is stark raving, blatant abuse and the general public doesn't need to ask the advice of horse people to understand it's no good for the animals.The HSUS won't get my money either, but if they are instrumental in putting this man in jail for the hell he's created, so be it. And if it topples the other trainers that sore...then more power to 'em.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              Well i dont know that Big Lickers are an easy target. Visually yes. But to break through the politics of the south and tradition and old money, etc has not been easy. In the past, attempts at whistle blowing have been met with violence and barn burnings. So people chose to keep their mouths shut out of self preservation. So making it public is a big deal that has been a long time coming.
                              from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                I watched last night. Ugh. I've never, ever in my life heard a horse make a noise like the one that was down in the stall, not getting up, and they were whipping it. Poor fellow. It takes an evil person to do that to an animal.
                                Caitlin
                                *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                                http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  HSUS is the "vehicle" here, and I have no problem with using that video to get the publicity wheels rolling with the momentum of public outrage and attention to finally get this practice curtailed. Sun Tzu would have called that "taking whole," aka Everbody Wins. Especially the horses.

                                  Becoming active in this cause cannot be construed as an "alliance" with HSUS, certainly. For instance: Agreeing that getting Bin Laden was a good idea doesn't automatically make you a Democrat.

                                  I think the AAEP should be pressured to finally 'fess up that the Big Lick gait and "training" is INHERENTLY ABUSIVE, serves no purpose or traditional basis in the actual employment of the horse, and should not be allowed to continue.

                                  Pressure TWHBEA, if need be by pulling membership and pledging to boycott their shows. See what state legislatures might be willing to do. When BL is ended, then go after people who employ the other unnecessary and unconscionable practices mentioned, no different than some of the uglier practices in the H/J world were eventually ended.

                                  ABOVE ALL, vote with your checkbook! DO NOT buy horses from, sell horses to, people who do BL or patronize shows where this stuff goes on. The quickest, surest way to end this is to CHOKE 'EM OUT financially. Hunt down the sponsors and drown them in letters; NO company wants to be associated with something like this after this kind of publicity!

                                  The reason we need to do this is for the reputation of the TWH breed in general, which gets painted in the public eye with a broad brush. When she heard I'd gotten a Walker, my aunt down in FL, lifetime H/J rider, just about flipped her lid and asked how I could "associate myself with a breed where they did such barbaric things?" I had a great, big education job to do that the abusers are about 2% of a large industry promoting and using one of our most wonderful American breeds, mostly as cherished trail horses and family pets. What do you think we'll catch out on the street this morning, from the far less knowledgeable general public?

                                  I realize the AR agenda is often extreme, weird and scary; but we can run with the ball they've kicked and USE their tactics to our own advantage if we don't get divided by the details!

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    It was nice watching the video of Champagne Watchout not looking like a total freak, but at the same time it's a little hypocritical to rave about the cruelty of pads and chains when the horse has a tail set, because I find that just as cruel.

                                    I don't understand the freakish gait either. Weren't TW's designed to be SMOOTH riding horses, not have anything to do with being high stepping and fancy? My god that looks like the most uncomfortable thing in the world to ride! Jerking the horses face off, sitting on their loins, bouncing all over the place. How did any of this come into fashion in the first place? How can all those people cheer for horse torture? It just blows my mind.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
                                      Well i dont know that Big Lickers are an easy target. Visually yes. But to break through the politics of the south and tradition and old money, etc has not been easy. In the past, attempts at whistle blowing have been met with violence and barn burnings. So people chose to keep their mouths shut out of self preservation. So making it public is a big deal that has been a long time coming.
                                      Agree. I am not a fan of the HSUS and will not be their bedfellow; however !WHY! has it gone on so long that it took HSUS stepping and undercover taping to get this on a national level. The act of soring and extremism has been going on for generations. Why do we as a nation sit on our hands waiting for someone else to address it.
                                      "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        When I say "easy" I don't mean easy to combat and prosecute, I mean easy to identify,especially for casual horse people or non-horse people.

                                        And once someone--HSUS, PETA--shows a controversial training philosophy, for want of a better term, then it's easier to move to the subtle ones.

                                        So big lick is easy to rally against because even to the non horse person it looks terribly "unnatural." And once you show that it's "unnatural" and, therefore abusive it's easy to convince folks that horses pulling carriages in an urban setting are "unnatural." And if carriage horses in the city are unnatural, well its certainly unnatural to pull a carriage at speed and race through obstacles. And since racing at speed thru obstacles is unnatural, why then so is racing at speed over them.

                                        Most voters in the country are non horsemen, remember.

                                        I am absolutely with you all on stopping abuse. But what happens when *my* disciple is considered abuse? So no, I won't support or ally myself with HSUS in any manner. I'd rather be suspicious and paranoid, if you think, than support someone who won't support me.
                                        Proud Member of the League of Weenie Eventers
                                        Proud Member of the Courageous Weenie Eventers Clique

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Okay, have no knowledge about this except that it has disgusted me for 40 years. Why on earth was he smacking the horse in the head with a stick????????????? I can understand the theory with soreing the feet, as disgusting as it is, but what are they trying to achieve by smacking them in the head or hitting them with cattle prods?????????

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