• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Shakes her head~

    Bugs you that much that you don't know who I am, huh?

    You'll live. Besides, as already noted, this thread is about the horse, not about me. Not about you (except on the half of it where you make it about you).

    For the rest here, thank you for the update on Roy-- I had missed that he was at the Mayo clinic. I sincerely hope he feels better soon, because he's a grand gentleman and a great advocate for justice and humanity.

    Regarding 1518, IMO we have a problem. It has been referred to committee, and there it sits. On that committee is a charming lady named Marsha Blackburn, from Tennessee. She's not a supporter, and since we aren't getting much 'talk' about what is going on with it, it's a good bet they are hoping to kill it in committee again this year.

    Here is a site with a list of every member on that committee:

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/committees/HSIF/17

    Sorry if this is old news. If you see a rep from your state or district, please contact that rep to ask about the PAST Act. If you already have done so, then get more specific: Point out that he or she is on the committee reviewing the bill, and ask why it's hung up. Keep the attention on that bill, and keep the focus on moving it forward. That's a simple way to help get the legislation enough attention to bring it out of committee and to a vote.

    Comment


    • I have written to my rep three times. The first time I got the auto generated...."thank you so much my dear voter blah, blah, blah". Then I nailed down the facts and asked the questions and I haven't heard back. But I write him every week so the issue is always freshly on his mind! LOL So sad that only one from TN has joined (last time I looked)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
        Isn't that a picture of Champagne Watchout? And has anyone looked closely at it? It looks like there's something more than just plain shoes on the front feet, some kind of pad.
        In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

        Comment


        • He had to wear a pad to show in the Stake class. And a tail bustle. Read alllll about it at their webpage, or in 3-4 posts in this very thread.

          Comment


          • Okay, so the under the picture it says that the horse is not wearing pads. But he is wearing pads. And he had to have some kind of pad in the Stake class, because for some reason he had to have the horse in the class. By the look of the horse behind him I'd say it was a big-lick class. And if the explanation is in one of the Preacher's long winded posts, then no, I didn't see it.

            Originally posted by katarine View Post
            He had to wear a pad to show in the Stake class. And a tail bustle. Read alllll about it at their webpage, or in 3-4 posts in this very thread.
            In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

            Comment


            • Of course it was a Big Lick Class. Was it the first one when he was sound but didn't gait worth a damn, or the second one when he was lame? I think it was the second.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                One hard truth in the article: horses that need these extreme devices to perform their gait won't have much value if you take the devices away. In this the article is spot on. They have been bred for almost half a century to be compatible with the devices, vice performing the correct running walk. It will take several generations of intelligent breeding to begin to restore the genetic damage done to the breed.
                G.
                And this is my interest in this thread (besides the horrible abuse). I've been gaited trail horse shopping three times now, looked at over 60 horses (it's only around 20 horses per search) and the majority of horses for sale are walkers. All I wanted was a quiet, smooth trail horse and it's nearly impossible to find in the breed.
                In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

                Comment


                • For sure if any horse has conformation faults severe enough the gait may be bad or good or the gait variations may be very limited. Depends on what your definition of gait is. SOme folks only look for smooth and will accept any thing that does not bounce them as good gaiting. So good gaiting is all a matter of what your definition is.

                  TWH simply have a bigger move potential cause they are often bigger and or lankier but also can be square and stocky. The bigger lankier ones have more range and variance of gait for the rider to ride. And they will give you suspension or smooth depending on how you ask. Does not mean poor breeding - it really means more range of gait potentials. And some prize range of gait potentials above all else - Look at the Icelandics - they prize 5 gaits much like the Saddlebreds. Nothing poorly bred about those horses. Yet all three breeds are and can be subjected to some excessive mechanical devices and show training. Same can be said for what the South American and Mountain bred horses are subjected to in the show ring.

                  The fact that TWH were stacked and chained and had their minds blown is what may mess some up - heck it would mess up any horse. But as to poor breeding - there have been plenty of examples of modern bred TWH gaiting quite nicely on this thread.

                  And as to the reference of those pacing horses being brought into the mix of many American breeds.... And??? Yes???? Your point is???? Heck Standardbred horses are great athletes as well and they do make WONDERFUL gaited horses. Many people use them for their innate gaits. Standys are the foundation horses in American gaiters. Standys are great! But again because you are gettin a lot of horse "body" with the breed - the rider has to get an educated butt to ride the bigger horses and even some of the little lanky ones (Icelandics).


                  Malda - I am curious if you recall what physical trait did the failed TWH prospects have in common to your eye. Were they butt high?too straight in the shoulder? Long lean and lanky? What did you notice about them. How were you told to ride them? Did they have you raise them up to gait? I ask cause I too see some common problems - and often it is more of how they are ridden.

                  Katarine - No way was CWO lame. If he took an off step or was short on one hind - well say so. LAme is too strong a word. The difference to me is he was not wearing a chain, he wore the minimum "stack" and he was not laboring at all - off or not. CWO was in good body and spirit when he entered the ring and when he left the ring.

                  Hey - Mr Preacher - if I get to Tennessee again - you and I are for sure gonna meet. Oh - and some of us might be "joining" to get a little red horse registered.
                  from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Malda View Post
                    And this is my interest in this thread (besides the horrible abuse). I've been gaited trail horse shopping three times now, looked at over 60 horses (it's only around 20 horses per search) and the majority of horses for sale are walkers. All I wanted was a quiet, smooth trail horse and it's nearly impossible to find in the breed.
                    Indeed.

                    For many years THE most asked question in TWH Web forums was "how do I get my horse to do a running walk?" The short answer is "get better genes." The longer answer requires about six months of careful, consistent, frequent riding. And even then you'll likely just get an approximation of the running walk.

                    The stepping pace, performed by most Walkers, can be a comfortable gait for the human and not harmful to the horse if ridden intelligently. The "ham fisted" rider will quickly wear out their horse (in the short and long term). I guess that's going to be true in any breed or discipline.

                    If the devices that make the Big Lick possible are banned then look for a big spike in "dumped" horses. This is an unintended consequence of a ban, but it will be as real and serious as a heart attack. By my rough count in this series of forums there have been over 300 horses in the last 30 days either "free to a good home" or found in conditions of extreme lack of care. That number could increase significantly if devices are banned. This is not an argument to keep the devices. It is an argument to consider all the consequences of governmental action.

                    We didn't do that in 1971 when the Free Roaming Wild Horse and Burro Act was passed; now the Government has tens of thousands of horses and burros in pens eating about $50 Million/annum in forage and fodder. We didn't do that when The Red Queen pushed for a ban on transport of horses for slaughter. The anti-slaughter folks didn't consider it's consequences when they drove the legitimate plants our of business. Now private parties are awash in horses they can give away nor properly care for. This leads to the dual consequence of creating criminals and condemning horses to starvation.

                    Every action has consequences. Every in-action has consequences. Sadly, the American People seem unable to realistically consider consequences that will be distasteful. We just pretend they won't happen and then ignore them when they do. Or just pass ever more restrictive regulation that amplifies the negative consequences. Sometimes life in the 21st Century is not all that pleasant.

                    Some might consider my thoughts an "off topic" digression. They are not. They are a recitation of historical fact. Those who ignore historical fact are condemned to re-experience such fact. So it's about as "on topic" as you can get.

                    G.
                    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                    Comment


                    • yes: already culls are free to maybe 3-400 bucks. If the padded horse is gone completely: there will be droves of unwanted horses. Droves of them.

                      I am sure we'll read all about it c/o links to sad Craigslist horses we all need to step in and save.

                      Comment


                      • For a big lick padded horse, "they" want a horse who paces initially. IOW dna/genes dictate that the horse does a true pace. Remove the pads and they go back to what their dna/genes says: pace.

                        So when horse wins in the padded, people want to breed to the universe champion horse, because it is SO special and it "gaits" so all fancy-like, thus the horse passes it's true dna/genes to the next generation. And, there fore produces more pacing horses, or some odd mix of in between.

                        A step pace is a foot fall/beat of: 12, 34. 12, 34.
                        A pace is a foot fall/beat of: 1,2. 1,2. The legs on one side of the body move together, and the hooves hit at the same time.
                        A gait, running walk, 4 beat, etc, is a foot fall/beat of 1,2,3,4. 1,2,3,4

                        You can literally hear and see all of these gaits.

                        MOST TWH do the 4 beat. Not all do step pace. You can collect them a bit if they are step pacing, and they will more evenly 4 beat. The true old style as they call it now, does 4 beat. Of course the foot falls can be at a different speed.

                        Padded horses with no speshil shoes or build ups pace. Add the pads and weights etc they do a step or a 4 beat.

                        Step pace is acceptable, and so is the 4 beat. Trot is not, and pace is not. When the horse trots, it pretty much is a guarantee will 4 beat gait. NOT pace.

                        Culls cost way less than 300-400. They just want them out. The culls are the ones which 4 beat or step pace or trot. They keep the pacing ones for show.

                        When one looks at a pedigree, and sees the grand champion names, this means the dna is PACE. Us gaited people who trail ride, do NOT want the pace. Some can work and get it out, but hard to do.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Malda View Post
                          And this is my interest in this thread (besides the horrible abuse). I've been gaited trail horse shopping three times now, looked at over 60 horses (it's only around 20 horses per search) and the majority of horses for sale are walkers. All I wanted was a quiet, smooth trail horse and it's nearly impossible to find in the breed.
                          Please PM me. I'll provide some contacts who breed, train, and deal in that very thing. They are out there, believe me!

                          Comment


                          • To avoid all the gloom and doom - all the stacked trainer/breeder crowd needs do is lose the chains, lower the stack and lighten the foot - and do what they have always done to get $$ off of owners: blow smoke. Specially if they get their separate little show circuit - these people want blue ribbons. They will have it.

                            Or they can do like the one stacked horse trainer and just go flat shod.

                            RMH there are a lot of successful flat shod horses with WGC lineage. There really are.
                            from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                            Comment


                            • Yes, I know on flat shod.

                              I am mostly talking about the big lick padded grand champions.

                              I would think in one or two generations the TWH breed could get the pace out of the breed entirely. Whatcha think Hurleycane? Think that is possible?

                              The RMHA has breed certification. You can't breed or rather register a horse unless it passes certification. No fancy devices either. Yes, there is dna parentage.

                              Sure you can breed the RM to other horses, however, for the offspring to be registered, it has to be from 2 parents who were breed certified. Keeps lots of culls out of the breed.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rmh_rider View Post
                                Yes, I know on flat shod.

                                I am mostly talking about the big lick padded grand champions.

                                I would think in one or two generations the TWH breed could get the pace out of the breed entirely. Whatcha think Hurleycane? Think that is possible?

                                The RMHA has breed certification. You can't breed or rather register a horse unless it passes certification. No fancy devices either. Yes, there is dna parentage.

                                Sure you can breed the RM to other horses, however, for the offspring to be registered, it has to be from 2 parents who were breed certified. Keeps lots of culls out of the breed.
                                RMH - I am squarely in the school of thought that all gaited horses pace or trot. The gait we ride for is in the middle. Even the RMH pace, step pace and fox trot. Heck some of them will even do a RW. Certified or not. The entire spectrum is there in every gaited horse. A lot depends on training and riding.

                                This thing about the WGC being pacey - what I hear and see is that real TWH breeders like the lose moving horse. That looseness leads to a deep stride when they are relaxed. What ignorant TWH breeders mis-think is that a pace has big overstride. It is as dumb as saying a gallop has overstride, or a big trot has overstride. Well sure it does - but it is not an intermediate gait. And this is why there are some tense pacing WCG - they are ridden to pace is the biggest problem. Look at the bits, the spurs the tension. All a recipe for pace.
                                from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                Comment


                                • Yes, recipe to pace.

                                  However, no rm which doesn't have the 4 beat is allowed to be bred, much less breed certified. The step pace and 4 beat are the *only* gaits allowed. Period. Conformation has to be to breed standard, temperament also. This way there is more of a consistency in the breed, also it will not allow the breed to go to the extreme of padded classes. For a rm, there is more to it than putting horses together and having a foal.

                                  Isn't "loose" moving more towards the horse being pacey? In the true "TWH loose moving" "a very loose moving TWH" verbage that is.

                                  Comment


                                  • Doing away with the pads (and, in a perfect world, the rest of the action devices) does NOT guarantee the end of the pacing horse. The devices are there to move the horse from pace to center AND to enhance the movement of the front feet (i.e., "front end action"). They do BOTH jobs.

                                    Flatshod is also a problem area. Some of the sorest horses I've ever seen have been in the flatshod world. A number of the trainers there get a "j.v. Big Lick" with a combination of extreme trim, heavy shoe (with band), and chains/balls/bangles/etc. AND chemical application. The more devices you remove the better, but that still leaves the "long and low trim", 48 oz. shoes, "nubs" on the underside of the saddle, and probably other "tricks" that have not yet become the focus of anyone's attention.

                                    As long as extreme front end action is rewarded miscreants will find "quick and easy" ways to achieve it.

                                    G.
                                    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                    Comment


                                    • That's another inconvenient truth.

                                      Some of the sorest horses I've ever seen have been in the flatshod world.

                                      Comment


                                      • 1. Check out Gary Lane's most recent video, Introduction to Gaited Dressage. In it, he takes a horse from pace to trot to pace to trot, at will, while lunging the horse. It is absolutely how the horse is handled and conditioned that makes a difference. A naturally hollow tense horse will be naturally pacey, but that doesn't change the fact that the way they are handled makes the difference.

                                        2. Most good trainers figure it takes a year at the flat walk to develop the muscle memory needed to move into a solid intermediate gait. How many of these horses are granted that lovely year to develop properly? Almost none. We push, and push, and push, expecting to feel that sudden change into an intermediate gait. Gaited horses are like driving a smooth shifting automatic-- you shouldn't feel much difference between a flat walk and an intermediate gait, especially at first. Most ruined horses are that way because someone expected too much, too soon.

                                        3. Flatshod is indeed becoming the new 'sore horse' industry. It doesn't change the fact that the USDA doesn't need to be dealing with chains and pads in their fight to stop soring. There is a reason that the new amendment has a large section regarding education of inspectors-- sore horse trainers would rather come up with a new torture method than to actually learn how to train RIGHT. The USDA struggles to keep up with the new soring methods. Removing pads and chains doesn't stop soring, but it will remove one aspect of the inspection process-- allowing more time to use newer, more effective methods of catching pressure shoeing and other new soring methods.

                                        Comment


                                        • Sounds to me like we need to get to the judges who keep rewarding all this extreme front-end "action."

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X