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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • "Part of a problem is the amount of denial amonst the women in the breed."

    Excuse me?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by CleanUpTN View Post
      I know that, but I've never been one to easily give up! But people disagreeing with folks who KNOW the ins and outs of the TWH breed makes about as much sense as me trying to tell you what goes on with TB's. I think TB's are beautiful gorgeous creatures and haven't missed watching any of the Triple Crown races since Secretariat won. However, I don't know JACK about what goes on in those barns other than what has been published by the media.

      Off topic a bit, but if anyone else watched the Derby, did you notice that they allowed a trainer to race that had been on suspension? If I followed the story correctly, he has been granted probation and the horse was under 24/7 video surveillance while on the show grounds. Now I know that those horses are required to be on the grounds for several days prior to the race so that isn't very logical for local weekend shows but could be incorporated into the major championship shows. It at least sends a message that they have taken the infraction seriously and are watching what it going on.
      That seems to say people should not talk about what they don't know about and then goes on to do just that?

      We have problems communicating at times, not seeing what we do while calling others for the same.

      The beauty of internet forums, all can post, if it makes sense or not.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
        That seems to say people should not talk about what they don't know about and then goes on to do just that?

        We have problems communicating at times, not seeing what we do while calling others for the same.

        The beauty of internet forums, all can post, if it makes sense or not.
        Nope, not what I said at all. But then it doesn't surprise me that you misinterpreted what was said. Actually, since I'm almost the last one talking to you, I'd have been surprised if you hadn't responded.

        Now who was that saying I was late late late way late to the party? Seems it didn't take me too long to figure out the doers from the talkers.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by gogaitedgo View Post
          "Part of a problem is the amount of denial amonst the women in the breed."

          Excuse me?

          All breeds are dominated by women riders in the show ring. This has been recognized by many of the breeds i.e. QH, Arab, ASB (definitely)..the "men" who are trainers are at the top i.e. Worlds where they are riding but amateur classes tend to be women, young girls...and they continue with their expertise right up to the highest honors..and those tend to be dominated by men. (I am NOT included cutting)

          I have received the publication put out on TWH's basically extolling their virtues in the ring and so many of the pictures are women riding BL horses.....And on the plantation horses

          I clarrified my statement by even mentioning a "Governor" or who ever she is who stated hitting the horse MIGHT be warranted as they can be unpredicatable and vicious ..or something to that effect.

          The "men" who are doing the training are doing it for the RIDERS..if the majority of the show ring riders tend to be women..then they have a lot of power OR they need to take responsibility for "going along for the ride" at the expense of the horse.

          I remember when Arab trainers used hot shots on the horses
          nosesto get them to put their ears up. Before one could count to ten..riders were having their assistants "zap" the horse before entering in EP or PARK..Then it spread to the amateurs...

          The women were finally told...we don't believe you don't know what it does to the horse...or that you don't know what is happening to their horse with a trainer. A lady who had an Arab..wrote a book about the terrible things the trainer did that killed her horse..drugs..torture..BUT she never ONCE has said..I am totally reponsible as it was up to me to know what my trainer was doing. She was warned by others...and she "chased the ribbon". NOW she feels guilty and is blaming everyone but herse;f.

          Soring is NOT exclusive to men. They might apply it..assistants might mix the solution up..but the women riders KNOW what is going on.

          This is why you need to be going after the riders and owners. Let a couple\ of society women owners take some hits and that will cure the issue faster than you can say Jack Russell.
          The Elephant in the room

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CleanUpTN View Post
            Nope, not what I said at all. But then it doesn't surprise me that you misinterpreted what was said. Actually, since I'm almost the last one talking to you, I'd have been surprised if you hadn't responded.

            Now who was that saying I was late late late way late to the party? Seems it didn't take me too long to figure out the doers from the talkers.
            No need to get defensive, I was making an observation there.
            I tried very hard to word my post so it was no way to seem offensive, but I guess you still took it that way.
            You are right on one count, I don't get half of what you post, like the last oddly worded paragraph.

            You want to fight for your horses, you have to do so sensibly, not butting head and making cliques out of it.

            As for what Fairfax said, I doubt that you have to hit the owners now.
            It is obvious they also are part of the abuse.
            How could anyone involved in that not know, owners, trainers, judges, those going to watch the shows and all involved in BL at any level, that is what is clear now.

            Everyone either played head in the sand, or were an active part of it, the shame.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CleanUpTN View Post
              Nope, not what I said at all. But then it doesn't surprise me that you misinterpreted what was said. Actually, since I'm almost the last one talking to you, I'd have been surprised if you hadn't responded.

              Now who was that saying I was late late late way late to the party? Seems it didn't take me too long to figure out the doers from the talkers.
              I posted that.

              I have no idea who you are but you do seem to knw a lot about the breed and show ring That is why I appreciate your posts.

              So many have "drifted over" ie Laura and luvy etc and they had no interest in the thread until a few weeks ago.. and they don't ask any breed specific questions..most of their comments are jst put downs..no more..no less

              I would have totally ignored the whole thread until the attacks and accusations started on the ASB's. I will not allow you to toss my breed under the bus to try and save yours. Therefore I DO have an agenda...that said..I sure have a greater understanding..I saw a BL at a demo in Tacoma Washington and I thought it looked kinda neat. Now, when I hear about horses lying on their sides moaning or dogs sicked on them to get them up...my eyes are WIDE open.

              I support the charges but just going after the trainers is NOT going to cure the problem. Follow the money...go after the owners.

              Most of the posters here WAIT until the Preacher reports from the meeting he has gone to. I don't know why the posters..if they have TWH's don't also attend..but they don't seem to even go to Celebration to protest

              They do post..but that is all...cheerleaders...every team needs them but it also needs "go to people"

              Why are the women NOT attending the shows and making a scene when a lady rider comes out of the ring riding a BL animal..sure..you will be asked to leave but you have the media there with you...

              There are just too many excuses as to why this has been allowed to develope and grow an extra "arm" over the past forty years...

              I expect that is why it is easier to count on HSUS to do something...I don't think they will do much..they didn't at Katrina...after the photo op...but maybe I will be wrong this time..
              The Elephant in the room

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bluey View Post

                You want to fight for your horses, you have to do so sensibly, not butting head and making cliques out of it.

                As for what Fairfax said, I doubt that you have to hit the owners now.
                It is obvious they also are part of the abuse.
                How could anyone involved in that not know, owners, trainers, judges, those going to watch the shows and all involved in BL at any level, that is what is clear now.

                Everyone either played head in the sand, or were an active part of it, the shame.
                Bluey as I said before, come to TN and show me how to get it done. There are only two cliques in the TWH world......sore and sound, and we both want each other gone. And yes inside both factions there is tons of head butting because there are some very strong willed people on both sides and quite a few who are hellbent on ending the existence of the other group in their own particular way.

                That is what has led me to say that I don't care who brings the video, who brings the police, who gets the bounty or anything else as long as the soring and sore horse trainers and sore horse owners get what's coming to them.

                You are also right when you say that the owners and spectators all know what is going on and have their heads in the sand. Why? Gosh, if I only knew, we could end this right now. I've believed that it was that backwoods good ole boy network and things would get better once that generation died out. I can see that some of that is happening but not nearly as quickly as I'd like.

                Comment


                • I'm going to make a mess of your post but do the best I can to add helpful comments
                  Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                  I posted that.

                  I have no idea who you are but you do seem to knw a lot about the breed and show ring That is why I appreciate your posts. On many fronts, I know more than I care to remember. I had family and friends that sored horses and for a short while they had me believing that it was only mildly uncomfortable, similar to a bracelet banging around on your wrist or a woman walking in high heels. Have you noticed that those same phrases are still used today?


                  I would have totally ignored the whole thread until the attacks and accusations started on the ASB's. I will not allow you to toss my breed under the bus to try and save yours. And that is exactly why I made the comment earlier that I wouldn't profess to understand what goes on in the barns of the TB's. Oh yeah, I've heard stories about ASB's but I have zero knowledge if any of it is true. Some wise person way back told me to work on cleaning up my backyard first so I have focused my attention on the TWH and RH. I have no intention of dragging your breed under the bus, but I will tell you that when I get my own back yard cleaned up, if a sore ASB gets caught in the mix, I'm not gonna be sad. For that matter, I won't be sad if any other breed that sores horses gets caught up in the backlash.

                  I support the charges but just going after the trainers is NOT going to cure the problem. Follow the money...go after the owners.Oh how I hope we reach that day! I'd like to hold responsible the trainers, owners, riders, vets, DQP and any other person that was responsible for getting that horse into the ring. And I mean both financially and with a jail term.

                  Most of the posters here WAIT until the Preacher reports from the meeting he has gone to. I don't know why the posters..if they have TWH's don't also attend..but they don't seem to even go to Celebration to protest I can give you a general idea why. In revolt, a lot of sound horse people quit being a dues paying member to the TWHBEA, the association we hold responsible for continuing to allow the abuse. Our dues were being used to continue the abuse, continue to pay the judges and DQP's and every other official that would look you right in the face and tell you that there wasn't a thing wrong with the picture. So we stopped giving them money and if you don't pay your dues, you can't go to the meetings.
                  Some folks such as Preacher do continue to pay dues just so they can be aware of what goes on in those closed meetings. He relays information back to the masses and new game plans are formed. Others decided to wash their hands of the TWHBEA and formed NWHA, pedigrees and all. Many of those folk could care less if TWHBEA falls flat on it's face and the Celebration is cancelled.
                  So going to the Celebration is again giving the sore horse people our money. Some just can't bring themselves to do that.
                  One last thing on that topic. There are some people who still continue to fight for the breed inside the TWHBEA ranks. There are thousands more who continue to fight OUTSIDE the realm of TWHBEA. We all fight hard, just by different means.


                  Why are the women NOT attending the shows and making a scene when a lady rider comes out of the ring riding a BL animal..sure..you will be asked to leave but you have the media there with you...No, you really don't have the media there with you. Now you might could call up the media and tell them you're going to cause a commotion and they MIGHT come. I doubt it. Heck the USDA has been on the grounds the past several years and the genius sore horse trainers STILL brought horses to the DQP that were sored. Last year, I believe I have my numbers right, there were 52 horses tested and 52 came back positive for soring chemicals. Does that give you any idea how stupid those trainers think the rest of the world is? I haven't been to the Celebration since 1999 but even back then the area was roped off and tarped off to where the only people who could see what was going on in there were the people presenting the horse and the people checking the horse. No media whatsoever was going to get any video of a horse reacting to palpation or even stumbling in pain.

                  There are just too many excuses as to why this has been allowed to develope and grow an extra "arm" over the past forty years...And I have patiently (sometimes not so patiently) been trying to tell you that real bodily harm is a threat not an excuse. Did you know that back in 1999 when the Jackson's first put Champagne Watchout in the WGC class, the entire family had to be hidden out of town and had security guards to usher them to and from the arena? These sore horse people ain't playing when it comes to people trying to stop their livelyhood.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CleanUpTN View Post
                    Bluey as I said before, come to TN and show me how to get it done. There are only two cliques in the TWH world......sore and sound, and we both want each other gone. And yes inside both factions there is tons of head butting because there are some very strong willed people on both sides and quite a few who are hellbent on ending the existence of the other group in their own particular way.

                    That is what has led me to say that I don't care who brings the video, who brings the police, who gets the bounty or anything else as long as the soring and sore horse trainers and sore horse owners get what's coming to them.

                    You are also right when you say that the owners and spectators all know what is going on and have their heads in the sand. Why? Gosh, if I only knew, we could end this right now. I've believed that it was that backwoods good ole boy network and things would get better once that generation died out. I can see that some of that is happening but not nearly as quickly as I'd like.
                    I guess I didn't explain myself well enough.
                    I meant cliques here, where some just love to be groupies for or against some poster or topic and carry the ball for those that really have an interest AND then let that carry to any and all other conversations.

                    We are better off not burning bridges in any place we are, including on the internet, that may seem a harmless, fun place to let our hair down at times.

                    I meant, indeed "it is a small world out there!", we should not forget that.
                    We never know where something we do or say in one place may have an effect somewhere else we didn't expect.

                    I was in TN several decades ago, with hunter/jumpers/race horse breeding, but didn't hear or see any BL horses.
                    Guess no one talked about them in our horse world.
                    I don't have any interest in going there now, but thank you for the invitation.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CleanUpTN View Post
                      There are only two cliques in the TWH world......sore and sound, and we both want each other gone. And yes inside both factions there is tons of head butting because there are some very strong willed people on both sides and quite a few who are hellbent on ending the existence of the other group in their own particular way.
                      There is a Third Clique in the TWH world: all the non-show TWH owners.

                      These people don't have their heads in the sand or anywhere else. It's just that they have their own reasons for not becoming involved in a reform process.

                      Want proof? Review this thread. There were some ordinary TWH owners that used to participate. They are gone. In most places where this is discussed you'll find the pro- and anti-Big Lick but you won't find the trail riders, pleasure riders, versatility riders, etc.

                      In the mid-90s there was a "sound horse summit" in Houston. Some of the names you mentioned earlier were there. It became very clear, very early on, that the "sound show horse advocates" were quite unwilling to take any steps that would upset their ability to breed to WGC horses. This was in spite of the fact that they acknowledged that these horses were not necessarily the "best" stock, only that they were the most marketable stock. It was a pure, economic argument. The non-show folk decried the show ring abuses, but were unwilling to mobilize themselves to oppose it. They, too, wanted to continue to ensure access to the WGC horses for breeding. Their motivation seemed to be more personal, i.e., having "bragging rights" about horse lineage than economics but the result was the same.

                      Right now government is "on board" with more vigorous enforcement of existing law but government is a fickle beast. At the Federal level it's in the news but if there's a major terrorist attack in TN (or other catastrophic event demanding Federal attention) you can bet this effort will vanish like snow in Memphis in July at noon. Local effort is even more problematical (as you and others have long averred). Some complain lack of enforcement is "political." Perhaps sometimes, but certainly not always. I volunteer in a DA's office. Around here it's not "political" it's that there are six attorneys to handle enforcement in four counties. Two of the four are Knox "bedroom counties" but two are quite rural and quite poor. They're not going to put out a bunch of "animal welfare" effort when they lack the resources for "child welfare" programs. Nor should they.

                      Unless and an until that Third Clique is motivated the present push can be undone rather quickly. The Big Lick crowd knows this and is doing what they can to delay...delay...delay.

                      G.
                      Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                      Comment


                      • I couldn't find the video of the runaway horse. Which is it?

                        Thanks


                        Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                        Though she opted not to post on COTH - I think she'll not mind this link here. The videos are worth the watch. And I got to say - though the handler was terribly hurt, I wish some one there had had the sense to let her know that tail set was dragging - not sure if that is what happened to her or not - but the picture of her leading the horse like that scared the whajeebers out of me.

                        Also - the runaway horse is on video. When they do the close up of him walking by you will see the soring.

                        It is awful stuff.

                        And it sounds like it was the neighbors who spoke up. Very good that they did.

                        http://forthetnwalkinghorse.blogspot...pdates-on.html
                        In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Malda View Post
                          I couldn't find the video of the runaway horse. Which is it?

                          Thanks

                          http://www.wate.com/story/22079198/h...ng-allegations

                          oops - forgot the link!


                          It loads after the advertisement. There are two videos. WHen you go to the link for the rescue, you will see the lady that was injured leading a horse with its tail set dragging (crupper was on the ground).
                          from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                            There is a Third Clique in the TWH world: all the non-show TWH owners.

                            These people don't have their heads in the sand or anywhere else. It's just that they have their own reasons for not becoming involved in a reform process.

                            Want proof? Review this thread. There were some ordinary TWH owners that used to participate. They are gone. In most places where this is discussed you'll find the pro- and anti-Big Lick but you won't find the trail riders, pleasure riders, versatility riders, etc.

                            In the mid-90s there was a "sound horse summit" in Houston. Some of the names you mentioned earlier were there. It became very clear, very early on, that the "sound show horse advocates" were quite unwilling to take any steps that would upset their ability to breed to WGC horses. This was in spite of the fact that they acknowledged that these horses were not necessarily the "best" stock, only that they were the most marketable stock. It was a pure, economic argument. The non-show folk decried the show ring abuses, but were unwilling to mobilize themselves to oppose it. They, too, wanted to continue to ensure access to the WGC horses for breeding. Their motivation seemed to be more personal, i.e., having "bragging rights" about horse lineage than economics but the result was the same.

                            Right now government is "on board" with more vigorous enforcement of existing law but government is a fickle beast. At the Federal level it's in the news but if there's a major terrorist attack in TN (or other catastrophic event demanding Federal attention) you can bet this effort will vanish like snow in Memphis in July at noon. Local effort is even more problematical (as you and others have long averred). Some complain lack of enforcement is "political." Perhaps sometimes, but certainly not always. I volunteer in a DA's office. Around here it's not "political" it's that there are six attorneys to handle enforcement in four counties. Two of the four are Knox "bedroom counties" but two are quite rural and quite poor. They're not going to put out a bunch of "animal welfare" effort when they lack the resources for "child welfare" programs. Nor should they.

                            Unless and an until that Third Clique is motivated the present push can be undone rather quickly. The Big Lick crowd knows this and is doing what they can to delay...delay...delay.

                            G.

                            I do not think an outcry of owners was ever heard more by the stacked powers that be than when said people refused to re-up their membership. And when said people went out in support of other organizations. So I would not call them uninvolved - even if they choose not to post on a COTH thread.

                            And their holding the fee's took place a long time ago. What kicked TWHBEA and the sore stackers in the arse a lot harder was the condemnation of their practices by professional horseman - AAEP, AVMA, USEF.

                            Remember - owners are not considered professional. To a hard-to-sway government official - it is the recognized professional that will buy their sway.

                            Here's hoping there is no discouragement of the back yard and trail riding individual's continued involvement.

                            And I might add that those that are active on this post do have walking registered and un-registered gaiters in their yard. SO they know the breed(s) and though they may not show - they have an interest in the shows and the champions they produce.

                            Their participation and mine and yours are what keeps the delay delay delay tactic thinner and thinner and more fragile. The $$ will run out and the Senators will be replaced.
                            from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CleanUpTN View Post
                              True it is. There doesn't seem to be as much dog fighting around here but still plenty of cock fighting. I had family in a few weeks ago and while taking them out along the country roads looking for ancestors in cemeteries, we passed several "crops" of fighting roosters. I'm not sure what the correct phrase is for the fenced in yard full of roosters (no hens) tied to little dog house type things.
                              Well in Florida they have just changed the dog fighting venue. It's call "trunking". But to the subject at hand.........
                              Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                              Comment


                              • As an owner of three TWHs, I couldn't care any less about the future of TWHBEA or 'their' horse shows. No Celebration? Fine by me. No WGC? Fine by me. Just fine. I don't care if it crumbles to the ground. The powers that be have run into the ground with their shortsighted, greedy, good old boy ways. The horses suffer and always have when money and 'fame' trumps reason. Always and everywhere. Look at the embarrassment at the Godolphin stables recently, drowning in oil-money but still needing more fame, more spotlight- so they cheat. Ain't nothing unique about that in Shehville.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by CleanUpTN View Post
                                  I'm going to make a mess of your post but do the best I can to add helpful comments
                                  Thank you for your informative response..I am still learning...
                                  The Elephant in the room

                                  Comment


                                  • Guilherme..thank you for your response..it most certainly is a complex issue with a lot of baggage
                                    The Elephant in the room

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                      I posted that.

                                      I have no idea who you are but you do seem to knw a lot about the breed and show ring That is why I appreciate your posts.

                                      So many have "drifted over" ie Laura and luvy etc and they had no interest in the thread until a few weeks ago..
                                      Are you sure about that?
                                      Not everyone feels the need to put in their $.02 when they read a thread, or toot their horn if they wrote a letter/e-mail, or otherwise got involved.
                                      And since you insist that Laura, Luv, Jen and I work for HSUS... well then, we've been involved IRL, right?
                                      Last edited by Angela Freda; May. 6, 2013, 03:43 PM.
                                      Yo/Yousolong April 23rd, 1985- April 15th, 2014

                                      http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/...m-a-sanctuary/

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                                      • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                                        I do not think an outcry of owners was ever heard more by the stacked powers that be than when said people refused to re-up their membership. And when said people went out in support of other organizations. So I would not call them uninvolved - even if they choose not to post on a COTH thread.
                                        There was NEVER an "outcry" by owners. There was only silence, indicating acquiescence.

                                        In any functioning democracy you always get the government you deserve. That's true in public and private organizations.

                                        Outsiders can pressure for now, but when that pressure goes away what will happen? History suggests a return to "business as unusual." Maybe it will be different this time; I don't have prescience so I don't know what happens tomorrow.

                                        G.
                                        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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                                        • The ongoing controversy does seem to be drying up TWHBEA> they are begging for memberships.

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