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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Original Poster

    CleanUpTN - Back to ventroflexion - Lordosis seems to be prevalent in the Saddlebred breed. Is it from genetics or the way they are ridden ? What is the chicken and what is the egg ?

    Back to the TWH. Larry Wheelon had his day in court this morning. He asked for a continuance to give him time to hire an attorney. The next date is May 14.
    from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      CleanUpTN here is some more good reading:

      http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_..._2008_pdf1.pdf
      from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
        Soring comes into the TWH world from the ASB world, not the other way 'round. At the end of WWII, when horses in the South lost their jobs to tractors and cars and motorcycles and the like, the TWH industry went into a deep depression. To re-kindle interest, and develop a steady economic base, the horse was transformed from a working horse to a show horse. Trainers with ASB backgrounds moved in and introduced the stack and chain and other "action devices." Then they found out if the sored up the horse the action devices worked better. To get an even bigger lick pacing Standardbreds were imported to Middle TN by the boxcar load and bred into the TWH stock to get a strong pace that would work well with the devices. The mob loved it paid to see it. And the rest is a very sad history.

        I as disputing your statement underlined.

        And I was giving sources and quoting magazines as a source for why I was disputing.
        Read Dr. Womak's explanation.

        G.
        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
          Soring isn't migrating from TWH to ASB

          Anyway..back onto the topic of the TWH...
          Learn to read!!!! I said Trainers with ASB backgrounds moved in and introduced the stack and chain and other "action devices." Then they found out if they sored up the horse the action devices worked better. This is gospel truth. Womak and Ben Green both agree!!!!!

          It's about history, not current events. In that sense it's relevance is limited.

          I never, as in NEVER, suggested that ASBs are sored up. I learned in DQP school why soring works on a lateral horse and not a diagonal one. The sorers learned that back in the late '50s when they started using pacing Standarbreds for brood stock.

          I've got nothing against ASBs; but I'm aware of the history of soring in the TWH and there is an ASB connection.

          G.
          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
            Read Dr. Womak's explanation.

            G.
            He is but one source. Dr. Conn in his writing about Arabian Horses presented views that appeared to be accurate regarding the breed however they were eventually challenged.

            No more..no less

            The only reason I bother any more is Aarpaso and others wanted ALL training devices removed from not only the ring, but the show grounds AND all stables private or public.

            Soring is NOT an issue in ASB's and attempts to include them in the TWH problem does make it so HSUS and other gorups will demand ALL SS type riding and showing and training be declared illegal.

            TWH breed has a very distinctive problem From reading here and learning that plantation type horses are sored etc it appears to have spread to all areas of the show ring. That is the travesity of the issue.

            lordosis is an issue however it is not as prevelent as it once was/

            That is why they strip the horses down in classes. The Association has sponsored research and there are numerous groups testing and tracking
            The Elephant in the room

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
              I'm not trying to be contentious, but that was not very helpful. Classical dressage equitation? Classical hunter seat equitation? Classical war lord equitation?

              My guess is that you mean the horse has a hollow back when you said they are "upside down"
              How about Xenophon? That way we don't need to worry about adjectives.

              Yes, "upside down" is a colloquial phrase for "ventroflexion." I don't know of any system of equitation where ventroflexed riding is considered a positive for the horse.

              G.
              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                Learn to read!!!! I said Trainers with ASB backgrounds moved in and introduced the stack and chain and other "action devices." Then they found out if they sored up the horse the action devices worked better. This is gospel truth. Womak and Ben Green both agree!!!!!

                It's about history, not current events. In that sense it's relevance is limited.

                I never, as in NEVER, suggested that ASBs are sored up. I learned in DQP school why soring works on a lateral horse and not a diagonal one. The sorers learned that back in the late '50s when they started using pacing Standarbreds for brood stock.

                I've got nothing against ASBs; but I'm aware of the history of soring in the TWH and there is an ASB connection.

                G.
                So they said it....does not make it a FACT

                I have pictures and magazines and others i.e. Bill Simpson who was an authority who would dispute that.

                Others here on this forum have stated that it became a problem BL in the 70's forward...not prior.

                I am sure there could have been a few select issues....anyway I will keep my opinion and allow you to keep yours.
                The Elephant in the room

                Comment


                • Thanks WITW, I've not heard anyone refer to it as upside down.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
                    CleanUpTN here is some more good reading:

                    http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_..._2008_pdf1.pdf
                    Thanks so much! I had read much of that before but never all together in one source. Deb Bennett has a great way of putting it all into layman's terms.

                    Comment


                    • If you go to this site and click on the ancestors pages
                      http://www.walkerswest.com/Champs/Ancs/AncestorList.htm

                      You will find horses without boots or stacks well into the 1940's.
                      In the 1950's the horses are being shown with long hooves, and straps and bellboots and thick pads are becoming prevalent, though not on most horses.
                      By the 1960's Horses are always being shown with something on their front pasterns and most have the builtup heel type of pads.

                      It is interesting that this coincides with the development of personal horse trailers in the 1950's, where before large vans and railcars moved horses across country - or they went on their own feet.

                      If a horse does not need to be able to move outside of a show ring, it is much easier to justify 'unique' shoeing and exercising practices aimed solely at increasing overstride or high action.

                      I don't doubt that trainers of (originally Hackneys, from england used in the 1890's carriages) high stepping horses morphed from transport to show-only and that there were trainers of Saddlebreds, Walkers, and any other plantation-use horse that strove to get more flash out of their good using horses.

                      Remember that breeds often showed in the same show venues and sometimes in the same 'gaited' classes before breed restricted shows became the vogue.

                      There was undoubtedly a very large pool of trainers of a variety of horses vying with one another.

                      That some resorted to cruelty and were not stopped at the beginning is doubly sad.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                        So they said it....does not make it a FACT

                        I have pictures and magazines and others i.e. Bill Simpson who was an authority who would dispute that.

                        Others here on this forum have stated that it became a problem BL in the 70's forward...not prior.

                        I am sure there could have been a few select issues....anyway I will keep my opinion and allow you to keep yours.
                        No, it was a problem BEFORE 1970 and evidence is that the HPA was passed in 1970, at the point it was so obvious and so outrageous it couldn't be denied any longer. But the soring had been going on before that.

                        Comment


                        • Walkers West has some really good information on their site however, I can't get there because it keeps timing out on me. Anyone else having the same issue?

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            it wasnt loading for me either and i can usually get on. it appears to be up now.
                            from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
                              CleanUpTN - Back to ventroflexion - Lordosis seems to be prevalent in the Saddlebred breed. Is it from genetics or the way they are ridden ? What is the chicken and what is the egg ?

                              Back to the TWH. Larry Wheelon had his day in court this morning. He asked for a continuance to give him time to hire an attorney. The next date is May 14.
                              Lordosis is a recessive gene. The vertebra itself is deformed. However because ASB show horses are never/rarely asked to use their backs or their abs, over time the back will sag. And many are learning to ventroflex at weanling age as they are fed high and have no choice but to drop their backs to reach their feed.

                              My old stallion now gelding is locked in the ventriflex position. He hasn't been in training for 15 years, I have had him for nearly 10 and he is just plain stuck there. He has such a hard time negotiating rough terrain because he does not use his neck for balance. I don't think he even knows how to use his neck for balance.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                                [

                                It's about history, not current events. In that sense it's relevance is limited.
                                G.
                                correct, the first bit of "chawed ginger root" rubbed around and under a horses tail head to give him "primp", came with the first Red Squirrel mares when they crossed the Basin from KY in the 1890's....

                                Tamara
                                Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                                I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.

                                Comment


                                • And just why did the Tennessee horse people have an interest in the Red Squirrel mares? Had they run out of Pacing Pilot blood?

                                  I find it a bit difficult to believe that 'We were all innocent until the Kentuckians corrupted us.'

                                  Since Civil War era photos do not show horses with long feet, shoe stacks, action devices or tail alteration, and turn of the century shows random amounts of some of those, followed by increasing variety and exaggeration creeping up over time... I'd have to judge 'twas fashion changed the game gradually, and over quite some time.

                                  But not in just one place or one breeding/showing circle of horsemen who then transferred it lock, stock and barrel to the nascent TWH?

                                  On the other hand, if someone admires traits in another breed that aren't naturally in theirs, people can get rather creative with gadgets etc. to impose artificial type or movement on their existing horses. And it can get very ugly in uncaring hands.

                                  Comment


                                  • Does my memory fail me? I thought that I remembered actually seeing a video of Midnight Sun vs. Merry Go Boy. Did I really see that or did Bob Womack's book explain it so effectively that I THOUGHT I saw it????

                                    Comment


                                    • Perhaps the relevant point in discussing sources is the once a horse looses its job it becomes a toy not a tool. By the time you get Talk of the Town the TWH is well on its way to beckoning a caricature. By the late '60s that process is complete.

                                      The old Walking Horse Hotel in Wartrace had some remarkable photos, artifacts, and videos* from the '30s. Too bad so much was lost when it was sold.

                                      G.

                                      *No, there were no video cameras in the '30s. These looked to be old film converted to VHS tape.
                                      Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        Barn owner evicts Larry Wheelon.

                                        http://www.thedailytimes.com/Local_N...ance-id-035938

                                        Wheelon eviction sought: Horse soring suspect makes court appearance

                                        By Iva Butler | (ivab@thedailytiems.com)

                                        A detainer warrant was served on Tennessee walking horse trainer Larry Joe Wheelon Tuesday morning seeking to have him evicted from the horse barn he has been renting in Maryville.

                                        Wheelon, 68, has been occupying the horse barn at 2743 Tuckaleechee Pike, Maryville.

                                        Blount County Sessions Court Judge William R. Brewer Jr. will hear the case at 9 a.m. May 8 at Blount County Justice Center.

                                        “I just think it is time for him to go,” said Kay Talbott of Maryville, a spokeswoman for the Carrie Harris Estate, owner of the barn. Talbott, who was contacted by The Daily Times Tuesday afternoon, said Wheelon does not owe back rent on the barn.

                                        The warrant lists “legal issues related to the care of animals” as the reason the eviction of Wheelon is being sought.

                                        Wheelon, who lives on Miracle Landing, Maryville, was charged with one count of cruelty to animals on April 18.

                                        He made his first court appearance on the charge Tuesday morning before Blount County General Sessions Judge Robert L. Headrick.

                                        Wheelon was given until 9 a.m. May 14 to hire an attorney and be back in court to answer the charges.

                                        Julie McMillan of Nashville, a special agent with the Office of the Inspector General, U.S. Department of Agriculture, led a raid April 18 on Larry Wheelon Stables.

                                        McMillan later filed an affidavit of complaint in Blount County General Sessions Court, a copy of which was obtained by The Daily Times.

                                        The affidavit said: “On April 17, I observed horses at Larry Wheelon Stables, which had their legs wrapped in cellophane and leg wraps, which is indicative of soring.”

                                        On the raid April 18, “all horses were inspected for soreness and legs were swabbed for foreign substances,” the affidavit continues. “Nineteen of 27 horses were found to be sore by a USDA veterinarian. Substances could be seen on horses’ legs and a chemical odor was detected.

                                        “Several containers of mustard oil (an illegal mixture of caustic chemicals), which is known to sore horses, were removed from the property.”

                                        Wheelon is free on $5,000 bond pending his appearance in court on the soring charge.

                                        Nineteen of the 27 horses were seized April 25 by the Blount County Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (BCSPCA).

                                        Helping with the process were Horse Haven of Tennessee from West Knoxville, Blount County Sheriff’s Office, McMillan and the Humane Society of the U.S. and Tennessee.

                                        More charges are expected to be filed later, said Gino Bachman, animal cruelty investigator and president of the BCSPCA.

                                        The horses were transported to an undisclosed spot in another county. “They are going great. They are on the road to recovery,” Bachman said earlier.
                                        from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                                        Comment


                                        • Love the article and the comments on the page following the article.

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