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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Originally posted by CleanUpTN View Post
    It's true that plenty of plantation TWH's are sored either by chemicals or abusive shoeing. It's also true that the breed, when bred well, doesn't need any of this man-made hooey. Lots of folks buy ill-bred TWH's and then use the soring or shoeing to get them in the show ring.......for a cheap ribbon and hopes of making money through breeding more ill-bred horses.
    I seem to remember someone, maybe Tamara, explaining something similar once, or that is what I understood from it.

    I didn't say anything before because I don't know anything about this part of the horse industry, until the HSUS questions started, that is something I do know about.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by luvmytbs View Post
      This is about the TWH breed.

      However, and I know I am going to be attacked by Leo, I would also love to see the Saddlebreds being included in some sort of inspections.

      While Leo and others may deny it, there are some Saddlebred trainers who are relying on similar training methods for whatever odd reasons....
      I haven't been able to keep up with this thread, between actually riding and work be I'm trying. This is as far as I've gotten.

      Not to get off the track completely I just wanted to mention that if there are still some that think no one cares or is watching this play out, all you have to do is read the letter from the Executive VP of the AHA in this month's Modern Arabian Horse mag.

      Last two paragraphs:
      "So my parting words are simple. Do a self-assessment of your training, breeding, trail riding and other practices with your horses and do not become the unwitting star of a fundraising social media photo or video article that you and your organization must try to defend. Please remember, what we did with our horses years ago as acceptable may no longer be perceived that way.

      Help us insure that the final perception of everyone who observes us with our animals is that unquestionable, those who love the Arabian breed treat their horses humanely."

      There is also a lengthy article about Country English Pleasure at a crossroads (used to be a big difference between that and English Pleasure) as they seem to be blurring. There is some discussion by trainers about the shoeing/padding.

      OK, back to the bickering.
      Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

      Comment


      • Ah Bluey, so you were looking at Saddlebreds then huh? I'm guessing they may also share some of the same issues as the TWH and RH, but I truly don't know squat about that breed. Last I checked, there were a few sound TWH barns in TX and I'd encourage you to try one out. Or you could just google some video of sound TWH in gait. It truly is the ride of a lifetime. I was once owned by a horse that traveled so smoothly, I could have drank a glass of champagne as he moved along.
        I've always felt that if more people experienced our breed the way God intended it, they'd all fall as madly in love with them as I am. And I also believe that in order to fight our fight, you must bear witness to what has been done to this amazing animal. How can you teach and educate if you've never experienced? That's a general "you" by the way, not you personally.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by luvmytbs View Post
          This is about the TWH breed.

          However, and I know I am going to be attacked by Leo, I would also love to see the Saddlebreds being included in some sort of inspections.

          While Leo and others may deny it, there are some Saddlebred trainers who are relying on similar training methods for whatever odd reasons....
          No need for me to attack..Renae will be able to explain it from a training eye but TWH's and racking horses for speed rack do not move the same way a trotting horse does. A sore ASB will show lameness and be excused.

          I remember when Sky Watch voluntarily withdrew from the Worlds in the middle of the class because Mitch detected a change in his slowgait..and turns out he was sore..therefore lame.

          Dr. Cindy LaCroix in Scottsdale is a major authority on leg and lameness issues and she wrote something that we posted on TROT. It debunked the soring issue. That said..there are many who do not like the "clown shoes

          Pressure shoeing would not increase action as it too is soring. There was a case where some horses were injjected with snake venom to block the soring. Wild Eyes and Wicked and two stall mats. They died from contaminated venom and if you are caught blocking a sore horse..the penalties are extreme.

          There have been individuals who claim..jumping on the band wagon..that they KINOW of a horse that was sored winning the worlds...Nope..but we do know of a horse that was LAME winning at the Worlds...should not have...but that is the point..we could see it was lame. THAT is what soring does.

          I don't know what a person would test for? I have asked and since soring isn't an issue..?????? T
          The Elephant in the room

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
            There was a case where some horses were injjected with snake venom to block the soring. Wild Eyes and Wicked and two stall mates. They died from contaminated venom and if you are caught blocking a sore horse..the penalties are extreme.
            I remember that well, but I don't believe they ever got to the bottom of it.
            It was absolutely horrid and sickening to see those horses suffer.
            ************************
            \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

            Comment


            • I apologize in advance since everyone is getting along so nicely. However it has bothered me since the night I watched it live. Watch this video of the Five-gaited World's Grand Championship Class. See if you can pick out which horse I would call lame. Turn off the volume it's distracting, and for those who know the players it could raise a rose colored glass or COI. http://youtu.be/xnsjghgjyuI

              Comment


              • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                I apologize in advance since everyone is getting along so nicely. However it has bothered me since the night I watched it live. Watch this video of the Five-gaited World's Grand Championship Class. See if you can pick out which horse I would call lame. Turn off the volume it's distracting, and for those who know the players it could raise a rose colored glass or COI. http://youtu.be/xnsjghgjyuI
                Holy crap, you think only one of them is lame??? OK, sorry bout that Just from here I'd say Courageous Lord needs a closer inspection and the winner of the class is so sore he can't stay in gait. But that's just a guess sitting here behind a computer screen. I'd like to read the article that debunked the soring issues......that should be interesting.

                Comment


                • Where's Preacher? Showing at Roane State this weekend?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CleanUpTN View Post
                    Holy crap, you think only one of them is lame??? OK, sorry bout that Just from here I'd say Courageous Lord needs a closer inspection and the winner of the class is so sore he can't stay in gait. But that's just a guess sitting here behind a computer screen. I'd like to read the article that debunked the soring issues......that should be interesting.
                    The winner to me looks to be in major pain.

                    I was going to watch one of those at the Louisville Fairgrounds, but after seeing these horses at their barns and in warm-up I decided not to.
                    None of them acted like they wanted to be there and their eyes looked like they were ready to pop out of their sockets.
                    ************************
                    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CleanUpTN View Post
                      Holy crap, you think only one of them is lame??? OK, sorry bout that Just from here I'd say Courageous Lord needs a closer inspection and the winner of the class is so sore he can't stay in gait. But that's just a guess sitting here behind a computer screen. I'd like to read the article that debunked the soring issues......that should be interesting.
                      I saw a bunch of skipping behind in quite a few. But it was the winner that has bothered me since I saw it live streamed. Unfortunately this video only shows the trot at the entry. The winner was consistently throwing his left front throughout the class at the trot. The rider did call a time out and have both quarter boots removed.

                      Now the horse that Redd Crabtree was riding was so nice and square coming in, he went right to rail and you could a see nice square and balanced trot.

                      It was never really debunked scientifically. Just the old mantra that you can't 'sore' a horse that trots without it being noticeably lame like head bobbing,etc. However that makes little sense if they are pressure shod equally. Just to be clear I'm NOT talking about chemical soring but pressure shoeing and it's VARIOUS forms.

                      I've been hearing anecdotal stories about this for years, too many to ignore. How prevalent? I don't know, surely not all but more than enough for me to think it's not an isolated event.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bluey View Post
                        I am saying that I don't know anything about them, the only time I saw anything like that was 40 years ago, while I was there with the jumpers, the three and five gaited ones in Madison Square Garden, fresh from Europe, saw them with their tail harnesses, huge stacks on their feet, parading around like outerwordly praying mantis lookalike.

                        That didn't make a very good impression, especially when they explained the tail harnesses and trail rails in stalls and all that.

                        Then, two of those ladies warming their horses stood by the ring entrance, waiting for the puissance to finish and commented, appalled, that was scary and how could anyone think putting the horse and rider at risk jumping that made sense.

                        I have not seen any other kind of such gaited horses since, but that impression was NOT a good one.

                        Since posting on COTH, some have explained more and that I don't know, but it seems that there is more to those horses than what I saw and then this all came to light, so, I just don't know, just learning some more.

                        I have said, when the debates about these things came to be, as long as there is no true abuse, as here, of course I will defend the rights of anyone to have whatever kind of horse they like, even those that "walk funny".
                        If I like them or not, that is irrelevant to the rights of others to have them.

                        ASBs don't wear stacks. THose had to be walking horses if they had stacks on.
                        Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                        Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by summerhorse View Post
                          ASBs don't wear stacks. THose had to be walking horses if they had stacks on.
                          I don't know what they were, other than three and five gaited and they did have funny big wooden looking shoes, by far bigger than plain shoes.

                          I didn't say they were ASBs or any other, I don't know.

                          What I thought interesting is that, as strange as they seemed to me, that they thought jumping was strange to them.

                          That shows you that people are depending on much of their opinions on where they come from, what they know and really can't judge others too easily, especially if it is a very different world that each come from.

                          Now, when we see abuse as it is talked about here, that anyone with any sense can tell that is very wrong, the kind of wrong that makes most want to wring necks, no matter where you come from.

                          Comment


                          • I just don't get it.
                            My joints hurt watching these horses. I cannot imagine riding one. They look like they would be uncomfortable to sit on like you would have to lean forward to stay balanced. The riders are all so hunched over!!
                            I have not taken the time to read all 200 pages of this post, but I have been reading a few here and there.
                            I looked on youtube for videos of walkers without anything on them just to see what these horses move like naturally. None of the show horses look like they could even stand painlessly.
                            This one farm has some horses that look like they can go on all day long (I don't know them or anything other than what you will see in the videos). They look smooth, pretty and level headed to boot. Extra in video one is that the horse is quieter for the gunshot than the little excited dog. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gknZpP8IHHc
                            Extra in video two is the little cheerleader practicing while the horse works all around. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGFcos7d9IQ
                            I am not a gaited horse person, but that second horse is one that I would like to try riding!
                            Can someone please explain to me why a quiet, easy moving walker is so undesirable in the show ring??
                            Last edited by Lori; Apr. 28, 2013, 08:39 PM.
                            Proud to have two Takaupa Gold line POAs!
                            Takaupas Top Gold
                            Gifts Black Gold Knight

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Grataan View Post
                              You had me, right up until you mentioned working with the HSUS, and that they will be releasing video taken by their undercover agent.

                              When was it taken and why is it being released NOW, why was it not turned over to the relevant authorities as it happened? That's chickenshit. HSUS is just in it for the publicity stealing and donations they will get because of it, you are kidding yourselves if you think they give a rats ass for animals.
                              Perhaps because most of the time the authorities won't touch it with a ten foot pole? They do not want to get involved. Even when handed the evidence on a platter often they refuse to seize the animals or prosecute, if they do they wait until dead bodies are littering the ground and in some areas the good ole boy network prevents any criminal charges at all. As in LA right now. How many horses have to die before it is cruelty? 25, 50, 75? More than that in LA apparently.
                              Every mighty oak was once a nut that stood its ground.

                              Proud Closet Canterer! Member Riders with Fibromyalgia clique.

                              Comment


                              • Judges and money.

                                But I now board my horses at a TWH training and breeding farm, which I love. Why? Because although the trainer used to show padded horses under saddle and in harness, he left that world over 10 years ago (and oh, the sad stories of soring, electric shocks, etc) and now shows all his and clients' and students' horses in pleasure and versatility (western, dressage, jumping). Everything on the farm is flat shod, happy, bright-eyed, sound and frankly, a breath of fresh air! While gaited horses are not my thing to ride (I'll keep my TB's thank you!), they are generous, excellent minded horses and he breeds the old type with good bone and good balance.

                                Every once in a while, he will get a horse in that was at a padded training barn, either as a purchase or customer, and he will slowly bring them down out of the pads into flat shoes. The most recent was a sweet as pie 10 year old gelding owned by a couple in PA who was with a trainer in TN for over a year. If my horse had looked like that poor gelding did, I would have been on the warpath.

                                He was so thin and ragged looking, with zero topline and a huge ewe-neck muscle that he looked like a 3 year old. His butt was sunken in on either side, his eyes were tired, and his coat looked terrible. Where a bitting rig had been left on him in the stall for hours on end, he had open sores all the way across his croup and under his tail, everything was oozy and scabby. Appalling.

                                That horse is now fat and happy, with a wonderful temperament. His sores are healed, his pads are gone, and he gaits along with his ears perked up. Six months of good food and care and he looks like a 10 year old in his prime again. Correct riding gave him a topline, a lovely butt and reversed his neck muscling.

                                It breaks my heart that they still even have to have inspectors at their SCHOOLING shows because people still hurt their horses for freaking show points. And Celebration is still a hotbed of abuse. But it is so wonderful to watch this trainer be a great ambassador for the TWH and show everyone what a fantastic all around pleasure horse, kids' horse, sport horse they can be (and he's been recognized for it). I love watching him teach everyone from his adults to his 4-H kids correct riding, back to front, inside leg to outside rein and he trains with a beautiful seat and a light hand.

                                The point of all this is that yes, there is travesty still going on in the Walking Horse world (and others of course, but they are not in the thread title). But there are also lifetime devotees of the breed who are working hard to do right by their sweet horses and it is a truly pleasant change from what I have seen in the past. Their ranks are growing on the "sound horse circuit" and I hope their momentum keeps up!
                                Life doesn't have perfect footing.

                                Bloggily entertain yourself with our adventures (and disasters):
                                We Are Flying Solo

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                                • Wildlifer - such a lovely post.. There really are some fantastic devotees to this great breed.
                                  from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                  Comment


                                  • wildlifer,

                                    Thank you for posting a bright side to the story. Hopefully, that is the trend which will grow.
                                    Proud to have two Takaupa Gold line POAs!
                                    Takaupas Top Gold
                                    Gifts Black Gold Knight

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by CleanUpTN View Post
                                      Holy crap, you think only one of them is lame??? OK, sorry bout that Just from here I'd say Courageous Lord needs a closer inspection and the winner of the class is so sore he can't stay in gait. But that's just a guess sitting here behind a computer screen. I'd like to read the article that debunked the soring issues......that should be interesting.
                                      Go to TROT forum They basically closed it down but the thread was started by ABS STARS In it she stated ( she is a breeder of sport horse ASB'S) that she contacted a journalist who tried to blend ASB's with TWH's regarding soring and the ensuing information that came outof it explained WHY soring could not work on a troting horse.

                                      According to Dr. Cindy there is a major study completed ??Great Britain??? and it is going to press and it is supposed to be the definitive work on movement.

                                      Soing can't work because a horse Limps when lame..soring makes it lame..the cadence of the trot and the movement is unlike the TWH with its running walk or BL movement
                                      The Elephant in the room

                                      Comment


                                      • Here is a video of the foundation TWH's, the horses who made the breed so spectacular

                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbZH3IbosI8

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by luvmytbs View Post
                                          The winner to me looks to be in major pain.

                                          I was going to watch one of those at the Louisville Fairgrounds, but after seeing these horses at their barns and in warm-up I decided not to.
                                          None of them acted like they wanted to be there and their eyes looked like they were ready to pop out of their sockets.
                                          Having had Arabs until ten years ago or so..everytime I went into the barn and looked at my ASB's I thought they were frightened..maybe even a little crazy as they gave me the wild eyed look. That is natural and and is preferred in the showring.

                                          The standard states as follows..Eyes (Prominent Orbit large full bright clear..lid thin and even curvature

                                          It does not say a human type eye is to be encouraged but when I look at the old time horses from the 40's and 50's so many of them in FH or 3 Gaited display it. Also many of the artists renditions show that "wild eye"
                                          The Elephant in the room

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