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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • I didn't catch Hannah Pulver's name. I've always been suspicious about her, the horses in her videos all show higher front end action after her "training".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCCJZJQoG_M

    There is nothing wrong with Absolut Skyy's gait, it's not flashy but I would call it a nice traveling gait, forward, square, and not wasting any energy. Yet after her training he's/she's suddenly picking up his feet. All the horses in the video show more front end action, I doubt that's all achieved by engaging the hind end.

    Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
    Ugh... Awful to watch and worse to listen to. The distortion on the feet of the horses in this video is really sad. Even on the non-stacked black. But goodness the movement of the stacked horse is bad.

    I will leave it at that.

    Other than to add very disappointed that Hannah Pulvers participated in this.

    Very.
    In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
      And does anyone know who the clinic attendees were? The two men who asked questions clearly had some kind of interaction with the presenter in advance to produce such smooth lobs. And I think I saw one of the female attendees getting up on the gray horse at the end.
      This dog and pony show was presented to the Gattis Leadership Group.

      http://www.marshalltribune.com/story/1934618.html

      Hurleycane, i am also disapointed in Hannah Pulver's participation. Makes you wonder if she knew about Inman's little narrative beforehand. Sad.
      from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

      Comment


      • Hannah shows TWHs in TWH HIOs. She doesn't show in NWHA or FOSH or ____ shows.

        Where did you expect her to be? At the house?

        Comment


        • Odd, I was under the impression that Hannah was supposed to be a natural horse trainer and did NWHA and/or FOSH. Don't know where I got that idea, so I guess my suspicions about her training are probably right.


          Originally posted by katarine View Post
          Hannah shows TWHs in TWH HIOs. She doesn't show in NWHA or FOSH or ____ shows.

          Where did you expect her to be? At the house?
          In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

          Comment


          • So everyone that shows at a TWH show is soring their horses?

            Really, Malda?

            Comment


            • I didn't say anything about soring. She could also be "nailing on the gait" by using heavy shoes. Aside from the negative effects of heavy shoes that have already been discussed, there's no way to know if a horse has a natural running walk or is pacy. Winning horses are bred, producing more pacy horses and fewer natural running walk horses. Also, even if *she's* not soring her horses and only using heavy/plantation shoes, others might use soring to match her horses' way of moving. That's how this crap gets started.

              There was nothing wrong with the way those horses were moving in the video (there was one pacy horse) and no reason to change them for a ribbon.

              Originally posted by katarine View Post
              So everyone that shows at a TWH show is soring their horses?

              Really, Malda?
              In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                The video was blatantly supporting BL. It was more about supporting BL than showing the difference in movement between differently shod TWH. Whether HP knew that going in or not is what i was wondering about. I mean its one thing to be around the BL crowd, yet another to help their agenda.
                from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                Comment


                • How did natural get so confused? In my understanding, natural means without mechanical or action device attached to the foot. Soring is abuse.

                  And this is where the stacked folks are confused when they say this is natural. NOTHING natural about stacking up a horse.

                  ANd I never felt Hannah was a "natural" trainer. She does use action devices to train. Heck you can hear the jangling chains and rollers in quite a few of the videos.

                  It was a disappointment to me that Hannah was in the video to support the stacked horse venue and Inman's comments. I had her in the same ball park as Nate -which is in the same show ring but none the less non-supportive of the stacked horse.

                  It is a valid place to be IMO.

                  But her being part of the "presentation" is a let down. For what ever reason, since she does not show and compete stacked horses I just surmised that Hannah did not support them. I also assumed she was not feeling the need to speak in opposition and instead stayed in the flat shod arena to showcase not just her talent - but her preference for the flat shod horse.

                  And she is good if not great with the flat shod horse. No doubt about it.

                  Will re-watch the tape - might have been the stacked horse I heard when the grey's pic was frozen.
                  from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                  Comment


                  • The other side of the coin could be that she's there to promote her name=good flat shod horses. If people want to stay in TWHs, and want to win, they may now be even more aware of her skillset.

                    No one ever said it was easy to make a 'honest' living in the horse business. It isn't easy in any business.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by katarine View Post
                      So everyone that shows at a TWH show is soring their horses?

                      Really, Malda?
                      A quick, and mostly accurate answer, is that if you want to win in the mainstream TWH show ring you'll have to "touch" the horse some how to get the action you need to satisfy the judge.

                      Will that mean "soring" in ways that violate the HPA? In way too many instances, yes. But even if you stay within the law you'll have to do something (unless you're Supertrainer on Superhorse) and then it's an open question as to whether what you do is harmful over time (short or long duration).

                      Once again, it's the "winning movement" that drives all these other issues.

                      G.
                      Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                      Comment


                      • Hey everybody; been busy chunkin a few rocks and trying to level the playing field, but first I want to close on my last post…

                        I have been entertaining people from around the world who have opinions and thoughts about what is going on with our industry. From this I have come to understand that its okay to allow everyone to have their say. You will either take it or leave it, or you may opt to comment on it, correct it, change it or agree with it.

                        But no longer are we to shut someone down for trying to express what they understand, sometimes the only way someone can articulate their thoughts is based on what they know, their training, their fund of knowledge.

                        I did not like that someone here for less than 60 days themselves telling someone else that they were basically not welcomed here., or they should not express themselves in the way that they had and degrading them by being what I saw as disrespectful.

                        That being said, our horses can use each and every voice to speak on their behalf, whether it be from another breed or even people who do not have horses.

                        And a majority of them are converts, it takes a bit of time sometimes to get someone to cross the line from the dark side…give them that time…
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                        I’m gonna post some of the happenings that you may catch up.

                        Here’s the first; facilitated by Dick;

                        Bradley Dick posted in Bradley Dick's Chat Group for TWH

                        Bradley Dick
                        1:10pm Feb 26
                        TWHBEA To Host Performance Industry SummitLewisburg, TN - The Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders’ And Exhibitors’ Association (TWHBEA) will host a Performance Industry Summit on March 15, 2013 at Association headquarters in Lewisburg, Tennessee. The purpose of the Summit, which is titled An Answer To Federal Regulation, is to give performance industry stakeholders an opportunity to compare ideas with an aim to developing and advancing a plan for effective self-regulation. This event will be for performance horse supporting organizations and attendance will be by invitation only. It will feature a variety of knowledgable speakers and open forums focused in three basic areas - Defining the Problem, Informational Presentations, Finding The Solution and Selling and Financing the Solution. Topics covered will include a legislative and political update, the status of the TWSHO lawsuit and its effect on the industry, the status of the One HIO/Performance Horse Council plan and perspectives from the AAEP, AVMA and American Horse Council. Open forums will be held to brainstorm workable solutions and ways to promote those solutions. For information or to be added to the guest list, please contact Christy Lantis, Vice President, Performance Horse, at clicketycn@aol.com or 760.963.1856.
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~
                        I followed this mess with my comments;

                        Mornin;

                        I woke up this morning to find this announcement that TWHBEA put out stating that there will be a "Private, Invitation Only" Meeting sponsored by TWHBEA and held on TWHBEA Membership property!

                        I will not sit still while TWHBEA Gerry-rigs some secret clandestine back in the woods meeting in the fashion of KKK meeting, and tell me I cannot attend!

                        TWHBEA is a open membership organization, as such ANY and ALL business or events hosted by TWHBEA belongs to ALL members that choose to participate.

                        I will take this around the world if I have to in protest, if TWHBEA spend one dime on advertisement, even in the posting of this which is man-hours or turning on one light in that building in support of the proposed meeting, legal ramifications will most certainly be investigated, charging the EC with whatever category that will fit this illegal endeavor.

                        Those days of back boiler room meetings have passed. and the majority of members do not want to return to that practice like a dog to its vomit.

                        Please reconsider, make changes or drop it completely.

                        Nathanael Jackson

                        Comment


                        • Then the next salvo went like this;

                          NWHA Executive and Bylaws Committee;


                          NWHA
                          Section I. Members of the NWHA shall be admitted, retained and expelled in accordance with such rules and regulations as may, from time to time, be adopted by the Members and enacted by the Board of Directors. In all matters governed by the vote of the Members, each Member in good standing shall be entitled to one vote. Members in good standing are defined as members who, within 90 days of the matter being voted on, are in compliance with the rules and regulations of NWHA and have no financial obligation owed to NWHA including the current year’s dues

                          It is so stated in our Bylaws that; In ALL matters governed by the vote of the Members, each Member in good standing shall be entitled to one vote.

                          This is Black Letter Law.

                          Individual Committees deal with and operate in ALL matters concerning the membership of NWHA.

                          As such, no members may serve on more than one committee having a vote.

                          Accordingly; I submit this Bylaws change below


                          No member of NWHA shall hold a voting seat on more than one committee at a time.

                          In order to be accessible to all interested members, members may choose three of the several committees they wish to serve upon, Every first choice of a member shall be granted a seat in that committee. Thereafter, second choices shall be seated, followed by third choices.

                          Explanation;

                          Currently, The President chooses members to seat individual committees; many members are turned away because the President states there are too many on the committees.

                          When in reality committees stand unfilled and members turned away from serving. As a public membership driven organization, to have one person (The President) select all who will serve the organization would be tantamount to “Stacking the Deck!” Personal, unfair and biased selection is held in the power of one person.

                          Closer examination shows some members serving on 5, 4, 3 and so; on different committees turning away members who have not had the opportunity to serve on just one. This tactic can be used to influence the direction of the organization by advancing the agendas of a few by spreading themselves throughout the committees.

                          NWHA is a membership driven organization which states that “NWHA...There IS a Difference!” in making such a statement, NWHA must be more transparent in its accessibility to members wanting to serve the organization. Every dues paying member in good standing shall never be turned away from serving..

                          Comment


                          • Ain't done

                            TWHBEA Bylaw Additions:
                            February 28, 2013

                            #1

                            No the group, organization or body outside the authority of TWHBEA that are not registered dues paying members of TWHBEA, may be represented in TWHBEA by a voting Director. Unless said group, organization or body‘s total membership are also dues paying members of the TWHBEA.

                            Explanation;

                            TWHBEA currently seats a voting International Board of Director representing The Trainer’s Division Committee for The Walking Horse Trainers Association. A group of over 400 members, who currently are not required or mandated by that body to be dues paying members of TWHBEA.

                            Would those over 400 members of WHTA be required to be dues paying members of TWHBEA the yearly income from that group would be over $24,000.00 per year.

                            This is the opposite of “No Taxation without Representation”: This would be tantamount to “No Representation without Membership.”
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                            #2

                            No member of TWHBEA shall hold a voting seat on more than two committees at a time.

                            In order to be accessible to all interested members, members may choose three committees they wish to serve upon, Every first choice of a member shall be granted a seat in that committee. Thereafter, second choices shall be seated, followed by third choices.

                            Explanation;

                            Currently, individual Committee Vice Presidents are permitted to seat their committees, but many dues paying members in good standing are turned away because VPs state there are too many on their committees.

                            Closer examination shows some members serving on 9, 7, 5, 4 and so on different committees turning away members who have not had the opportunity to serve on just one.

                            TWHBEA is a membership driven organization which states that “Membership Has Its Advantages” in making such a statement, TWHBEA must be more transparent in its accessibility to members wanting to serve the organization. Every dues paying member in good standing shall never be turned away from serving.

                            Comment


                            • Did you ask to be added to the guest list?

                              For information or to be added to the guest list, please contact Christy Lantis, Vice President, Performance Horse, at clicketycn@aol.com or 760.963.1856.

                              Comment


                              • The old ways of doing business must come to an end, members need to not only feel but know that they have full access to their organizations...

                                The people who want to win at any cost, to include stacking the deck, making rules that favor themselves ~~~~

                                Listen I'm pretty much done showing, ain't really standing my stallion...then what be my motive for all of this?

                                Doin da right thang

                                Well, the opposition I am getting from the TWHBEA side come from the lickers, who number one do not want to lose a favorable seat on the board, but also lose the ability to control the org through committee saturation~~~~ too bad, so sad...

                                Now is the time I would encourage anyone who has left or those holding out on joining any of these orgs to do it now ~~~ fill our ranks of people who sympathize with the sound horse movement.

                                The Preacher

                                Comment


                                • [QUOTE] Did you ask to be added to the guest list?[/QUOTE

                                  Katerine....didn't need to ..invitation means the host or hostess ASK / INVITES you..other wise whats the sense in having an invitation only meeting..

                                  But the point is...you simply cannot have a dues paying membership organization use membership money to invite only a segment to a meeting held by the org...excluding others

                                  Not a real hard concept to digest

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                                    You are correct. The band is there to hold a heavy, Plantation shoe on the foot. Hoof tissue is not strong enough to hold a48 oz. shoe no matter what kind of nail you use. Toe length is irrelevant, however; it's all about weight.

                                    A Plantation shoe is an action device. It's just one without moving parts.

                                    The band can be used as a soring agent if it is too tight. That is an HPA violation.

                                    G.
                                    According to USEF the band is not considered to be an action device.

                                    Several problems I see as an outsider...

                                    I noticed some posters are now turning on the plantation shod horses and are making accusations. Is this going to become the next BL victim?..meaning there needs to be another boogie man to attack after BL is eradicated.

                                    Weight, has been explained, does NOT increase lift or action....therefore how could it be called an action device? (this is not to de-rail however it is relevant. One of the top ASB's many years ago..5G...would only wear a 6 oz shoe. Anything greater negatively impacted his stride) Toe length DOES have an impact. There is a farrier up here who used to be in Alabama and he shod BL horses (he is now retired..as he is in his 80's)

                                    A concern expressed to me...now a shoe is an "action" device. What next? Trainers the flat shod enthusiasts don't like will be designated action devices? Silly...of course...but I have seen stranger things occur in the horse industry.

                                    Is there a study I can read showing how a tight band can be a soring device? I am interested as many ASB's have that band..and they are not sore...
                                    The Elephant in the room

                                    Comment


                                    • Oh for heavens sake. Weight does increase motion. Why use if it doesn't? My TWH came here with Plantation shoes that are heavier than my ASB's total package. I still have them both.

                                      The TWH had way more motion with his heavy shoe than he does with kegs. It's the very reason they were put on and I quote from the former owner who is a friend and a farrier.

                                      Me: Why did you go to the trouble to put those shoes on to show me the horse?
                                      Him (and I quote): Because it gives him more snap and knee in the front.

                                      Comment


                                      • [QUOTE=The Preacher;6865287]
                                        Did you ask to be added to the guest list?[/QUOTE

                                        Katerine....didn't need to ..invitation means the host or hostess ASK / INVITES you..other wise whats the sense in having an invitation only meeting..

                                        But the point is...you simply cannot have a dues paying membership organization use membership money to invite only a segment to a meeting held by the org...excluding others

                                        Not a real hard concept to digest
                                        USDF does this - they hold training symposiums where only _____ level trainers may attend, or if you're a friend of that level trainer, you can go. You may not like what they are doing -but their bylaws may, in fact, allow it.

                                        Comment


                                        • It could be the reason for the invite only is that they are trying to educate the padded horse people on what the federal regulations are now, and avoid the confrontations that tend to go on in something like this. WHen you have 2 opposing sides, sometimes, it is better for them to meet seperately and have calm heads on each side bring matters in for discussion.

                                          TWHBEA To Host Performance Industry SummitLewisburg, TN - The Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders’ And Exhibitors’ Association (TWHBEA) will host a Performance Industry Summit on March 15, 2013 at Association headquarters in Lewisburg, Tennessee. The purpose of the Summit, which is titled An Answer To Federal Regulation, is to give performance industry stakeholders an opportunity to compare ideas with an aim to developing and advancing a plan for effective self-regulation. This event will be for performance horse supporting organizations and attendance will be by invitation only. It will feature a variety of knowledgable speakers and open forums focused in three basic areas - Defining the Problem, Informational Presentations, Finding The Solution and Selling and Financing the Solution. Topics covered will include a legislative and political update, the status of the TWSHO lawsuit and its effect on the industry, the status of the One HIO/Performance Horse Council plan and perspectives from the AAEP, AVMA and American Horse Council. Open forums will be held to brainstorm workable solutions and ways to promote those solutions. For information or to be added to the guest list, please contact Christy Lantis, Vice President, Performance Horse, at clicketycn@aol.com or 760.963.1856.
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                          It sounds to me like there is limited space and they are going to have pro and anti there for discussions. I don't think there is some grand conspiracy to exclude anyone.
                                          http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

                                          She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown

                                          Comment

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