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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Originally posted by FortheTWH View Post
    I don't understand, then. It just seemed a bit ridiculous to be talking about how to use mechanics for training on ASBs when the title of the thread is "Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue." The ASB community is not in danger of losing their mechanical means of training, so I don't see where it's relevant. ASBs are not trained the same way TWHs are because first, they don't sore their horses, and second, they are trotting or racking and not performing a lateral gait, so their training methods don't work on TWHs.

    Don't get me wrong--there are a lot of people in the ASB world who have also been involved in the TWH industry. I would hope they would actually stand up and help us rather than hinder with this problem by condoning the actions of the TWH industry. Unfortunately I find more often than not that ASB folks actually are condoning the abuse by defending pads, chains, and bands which are not necessary for training in general. As a reminder, HR 6388 DOES NOT apply to them. We need them to help us get this passed--they know as well as we do that stacks, chains, bands, wedges, and heavy shoes are used to sore horses in the TWH industry, and that's why they are exempt from the amendment--they DON'T break the federal law that is the HPA.

    Overall, I don't poke my nose in the ASB folks' business. I don't go on ASB threads and talk about how TWHs are trained. But it's okay for them to come on here and post their studies and the like on a thread that's supposed to be about the TWH? Yet when I counter and talk about studies done specifically about the TWH and point out that Renae's studies are on the HIND LIMBS rather than the FRONT LIMBS that are the issue in the TWH industry, I get reprimanded? I don't get it.
    I had not posted on this thread for a long time because it had gotten back on track to being a thread about Walking Horses. But then some posts creeped back in from posters who either can not or refuse to accept what you just stated above. luvmytbs' post #3674 was in very poor taste, CFFarm's post #3743 was the tipping point, micorbovine's post #3757 was also off topic, and Guilherme and gogaitedgo, and yes hurleycane you also in a few posts, are also ones straying off topic by taking this "fight" out of the Walking Horse world and implying that the training and shoeing practices of trotting horses should also be under fire. As I said in post #3744 if this thread stays on topic I will stay out of it.

    Comment


    • Yes I think it is important for the high stepping crowd to be a part of this discussion. I think if they are heard out they can indeed show why and how the TWH went so wrong. Remember these breed shows and showing practices are found to be in a manner acceptable to the AAEP, AVMA and USEF.

      Every time I compare the explanations of a stacker to the explanations of an ASB on the mechanics of the modified shoe - the differences between them are incredible. One completely hampers the horse's natural movement - the other does not.

      They should be heard. And not just in defense - but in discussion.

      I still feel HR6388 is the only way to go for the TWH Racking SSH breeds simply because they show without trot. If we could just get a pace-out or trot-out into the DQP (pdq) - we would really rout out the excess shoe and soring and action device from the soft gaited breeds.
      from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

      Comment


      • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
        Yes I think it is important for the high stepping crowd to be a part of this discussion. I think if they are heard out they can indeed show why and how the TWH went so wrong. Remember these breed shows and showing practices are found to be in a manner acceptable to the AAEP, AVMA and USEF.

        Every time I compare the explanations of a stacker to the explanations of an ASB on the mechanics of the modified shoe - the differences between them are incredible. One completely hampers the horse's natural movement - the other does not.

        They should be heard. And not just in defense - but in discussion.

        I still feel HR6388 is the only way to go for the TWH Racking SSH breeds simply because they show without trot. If we could just get a pace-out or trot-out into the DQP (pdq) - we would really rout out the excess shoe and soring and action device from the soft gaited breeds.
        Discussion is fine, but completely hijacking the thread to talk about their training methods is not. Like I said, I don't go on ASB threads to talk about how to train TWHs. I always find that ASB people have to come onto TWH threads to defend their practices. I'm not sure why...perhaps out of guilt...? Either way, it becomes a nuisance and takes the focus away from what we need to do: help end soring of the TWHs, Racking Horses, and SSHs.

        And quite frankly, it's perfectly clear where the TWH industry went wrong. They continued to allow people to sore their horses even when it became illegal, even praising and rewarding them. And the sorest horse is always the one that wins, period. We don't need the ASB people's input to tell us that.
        Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
        www.forthetwh.com

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Renae View Post
          I had not posted on this thread for a long time because it had gotten back on track to being a thread about Walking Horses. But then some posts creeped back in from posters who either can not or refuse to accept what you just stated above. luvmytbs' post #3674 was in very poor taste, CFFarm's post #3743 was the tipping point, micorbovine's post #3757 was also off topic, and Guilherme and gogaitedgo, and yes hurleycane you also in a few posts, are also ones straying off topic by taking this "fight" out of the Walking Horse world and implying that the training and shoeing practices of trotting horses should also be under fire. As I said in post #3744 if this thread stays on topic I will stay out of it.
          Those are very good points, Renae--I didn't think about that. Thanks for pointing that out. I don't give a rat's rear end what Saddle seat people do to their horses right now. Do I like Saddle seat? Nope, not at all. But that's an opinion that doesn't need to be discussed here. All I want to see is an end to soring and the items they use to sore horses: stacks, chains, action devices, bands, etc. I agree with HR 6388 in that it should be breed specific.
          Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
          www.forthetwh.com

          Comment


          • OK. No discussion of high stepping horses and training methods etc.
            from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

            Comment


            • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
              OK. No discussion of high stepping horses and training methods etc.
              The difficulty with this is that it puts "soring" in a vacuum. Nobody, not even Jackie, sores up a horse for no reason. These people are not sadists who just enjoy inflicting pain. It's done to attain a very specific result. If you ignore that result, and the motivation to achieve it, you will at best have done half the job.

              So discussion of the 5Ws of soring (and its companion issues) is most certainly ON TOPIC.

              G.
              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

              Comment


              • "These people are not sadists who just enjoy inflicting pain."

                Sure they are. The fact that they make money doing what they love is a bonus. I guarantee you if soring and padded horse shows ended right this minute, these cretins would still abuse animals and most likely their spouses and kids.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by gogaitedgo View Post
                  "These people are not sadists who just enjoy inflicting pain."

                  Sure they are. The fact that they make money doing what they love is a bonus. I guarantee you if soring and padded horse shows ended right this minute, these cretins would still abuse animals and most likely their spouses and kids.
                  How many "sore lick" owners do you know, personally? Do you live amongst them that you are knowledgeable? Are you a trained DQP cum mental health professional/social worker that you can make, and defend, your statements?

                  This sort of thinking is why the "sound horse people" have been unsuccessful for 50+ years.

                  You clearly don't understand the problem; that being the case I doubt you'll ever craft a solution.

                  G.
                  Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                    How many "sore lick" owners do you know, personally? Do you live amongst them that you are knowledgeable? Are you a trained DQP cum mental health professional/social worker that you can make, and defend, your statements?








                    This sort of thinking is why the "sound horse people" have been unsuccessful for 50+ years.

                    You clearly don't understand the problem; that being the case I doubt you'll ever craft a solution.

                    G.
                    How hard is it to recognize evil? How many times does it have to be proven that animal abusers also abuse people? The solution is simple. It's already illegal. It's easy to identify. Prosecute and fine them till they don't have a pot to piss in. Goes without saying no stack classes, ever again.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                      The difficulty with this is that it puts "soring" in a vacuum. Nobody, not even Jackie, sores up a horse for no reason. These people are not sadists who just enjoy inflicting pain. It's done to attain a very specific result. If you ignore that result, and the motivation to achieve it, you will at best have done half the job.

                      So discussion of the 5Ws of soring (and its companion issues) is most certainly ON TOPIC.

                      G.
                      I set them up - you hit them outa the park! You of course are right. Very right. And your posts on the topic have been very enlightening. How anyone could miss your important point here is beyond me.

                      I think it is way out of line to infer that anyone should not have a voice here. Specially an ASB - You do know many of the Racking Horses are ASB's? And I sure do not get where Renae's posts are objectionable. She makes sense and gave important information.

                      Reminds me of some of the rukus in the Rocky Mtn horse world. They had a squabble between those that wanted to promote only short square horses that did what I call a 'table rack' and those that wanted to promote a longer leaner flashy high stepping horse. Of course there were extremes in each group - like those that cranked horses and bent a short horse in half to get a high headed/high stepping 'look' - to those that simply did not recognize a bent knee could be quite natural in a rack - specially at speed.

                      But they continue at each other with their blinkers on - missing the big picture. And the big picture is that there is room for both horses in the breed.

                      As far as mechanical training - it really has a place for discussion here. It is not breed specific. No matter the author - it is not inherently cruel. And though HR6388 may seek to stop use of action devices in the show ring and exhibitions - they do not make them illegal to use.

                      I am sure before this bill gets passed the weighted shoe is going to be worked into the equation. NWHA has weighed in on this and seeks to include more USEF type allowances as is afforded the other high stepping breeds.

                      SO there you go. It really is on topic.

                      Barefoot only is just not going to happen.
                      from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                      Comment


                      • Wow. I didn't realize I had so much influence as to "tip" a thread with over 3800 posts in a different direction. Threads have a life of their own and ebb and flow. Some get darn silly or nasty. This one has managed to actually stay pretty much on topic because we care so much.

                        That particular post was in reflection of someone who seemed to think that having champion horses meant that their horses were happy and sound. Or even the best horse in the class. I could have just as easily posted about a dressage or hunter/jumper competition. Sorry if I side tracked anyone. Or touched a nerve. Carry on, the horses still hurt.
                        Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by gogaitedgo View Post
                          How hard is it to recognize evil? How many times does it have to be proven that animal abusers also abuse people? The solution is simple. It's already illegal. It's easy to identify. Prosecute and fine them till they don't have a pot to piss in. Goes without saying no stack classes, ever again.
                          I've got no problems recognizing evil; I used to do it for a living.

                          One thing I learned in that is that if you don't fully recognize it (it's roots, motivations, as well as current manifestation) then you won't but half do the job in dealing with it.

                          Your passion is obvious. Perhaps you should consider tempering that passion with some thought.

                          G.
                          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                            I've got no problems recognizing evil; I used to do it for a living.

                            One thing I learned in that is that if you don't fully recognize it (it's roots, motivations, as well as current manifestation) then you won't but half do the job in dealing with it.

                            Your passion is obvious. Perhaps you should consider tempering that passion with some thought.

                            G.
                            Well la di dah. Please, please tell me where I went wrong.

                            Seems to me the egghead types and the entire justice system has been working diligently on finding just the right study to stop evil. Decades of money wasted. You do NOT have to understand why little jackie is a psychopath. You just have to take away his farm and put him in a cage.

                            Comment


                            • I happen to agree that these people aren't necessarily evil. I guess it comes down to what the definition of evil is. Soring is a way of life to them. It's just as normal as putting on their shoes to go out to the barn. They truly have no clue how to train a horse any other way. It's one reason why all of this is so threatening to them--these are people who can't just switch breeds and still make a living because soring is all they know.

                              However, we do know that animal abuse leads to people abuse. These people are abusive to each other, and it's a game to them. Your horse wins against his; he'll shake your hand and congratulate you but at the next show pay the DQP to ticket your horse. Then you do it to him at the next show. It's all the same to them.

                              We're looking at a culture of abuse. It is the same as dog fighting, cock fighting, canned hunts, bear baiting, horse tripping, stallion fighting, all of the most heinous animal "sports" out there. They don't see it as abuse at all. The animals are commodities, not pets, not friends, not living creatures that deserve our respect.

                              Unfortunately, all of this makes our fight that much harder. That's why we need to get support from the outside to push the USDA to make changes to the HPA to help end this. Discussing it on a forum does nothing to help. What we need is for folks to get out there and start contacting your Congress persons, tell them about the new amendment that's probably coming out in March and ask for their support.
                              Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                              www.forthetwh.com

                              Comment


                              • I think there is more potential influence to be had in this effort from professional horsemen's associations (AVMA, AAEP, USEF and YES the ASB associations) than any letter from my neighbor down the street. The Mitch McConnells of politics won't bat an eye at emotional pleadings. Professional presentations, white papers and such do send shock waves.

                                HR6388 goes beyond soring. And it will need high level professional backing and cooperative effort among horse folks to get passed. Alienating saddle seat folks is not the way to go.

                                Discussion and consensus is exactly what is needed.
                                from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by gogaitedgo View Post
                                  Well la di dah. Please, please tell me where I went wrong.

                                  Seems to me the egghead types and the entire justice system has been working diligently on finding just the right study to stop evil. Decades of money wasted. You do NOT have to understand why little jackie is a psychopath. You just have to take away his farm and put him in a cage.
                                  I already have.

                                  We appear to have gone beyond rational discussion. Further exchange seems futile.

                                  G.
                                  Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                  Comment


                                  • I’ve known many of you here for several years, from activity on this group, I remember the dayz of raising the alarm about what was going on in this breed and offering Dressage en Gaite as a humane alternative.

                                    There were some real lively discussions.

                                    But in all that time I have never seen or participated in the censoring, controlling or otherwise being mean to anyone who had an opinion.

                                    Everyone was allowed to speak their mind, on whatever topic they wanted, yeah, one may run the risk of being singled out and held accountable for your words, but never EVER, I say that again EVER heard anyone tell someone they could not talk here.

                                    I have found that even though topics may get off track, sometimes people’s way to process information comes from their fund of knowledge of what they know.

                                    Some folks are lonely, and just enjoy the company of others and just want to tell someone else about what is important in their lives.

                                    But the post #3803 disturbs me, here this person has been on this group all of 54 dayz is telling people what they can do, speak or feel on this list who has over 169,000 reads….

                                    I have found that sometimes the cure can be just as rough as the problem, ask anyone who has had to undergo or knew someone who has undergone chemotherapy ~~~

                                    Overzealousness can be found in most all emotionally charged issues.
                                    Most of you know that I am a Black man ~~~ I have in my 60 some years experienced exclusion, denial, rejection and more,

                                    I have adopted a personal philosophy that “if I did not like it done to me…then for God’s sake do not do it to anyone else.”

                                    Dear lady, who is the subject of bad behavior being thrust upon you ~~~~ my vote sayz…”If you have something on your mind, speak it, however, you may not get any responses to your thoughts because it is off topic and some will just go right on by your thoughts and say nothing, but by God! You will not be banned from your right to participate on this group... someone may direct you to a thread that may be more appropriate for your topic, but COTH’ers if you don’t like what they are saying…don’t read it!

                                    Andrea, you have a blog that you control. Please do not try to control things here~~~~ we have been getting along just fine…if people do not like what’s being said here..they move on~~~~ but I simply can never remember anyone being told they cannot be here.

                                    My kids growing up would say to you” You ain’t the boss~~applesauce!”

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by The Preacher View Post
                                      Andrea, you have a blog that you control. Please do not try to control things here~~~~ we have been getting along just fine…if people do not like what’s being said here..they move on~~~~ but I simply can never remember anyone being told they cannot be here.

                                      My kids growing up would say to you” You ain’t the boss~~applesauce!”
                                      You know what I would say to your kids? I'd say: "That's a very disrespectful thing to say to your elders."

                                      And I notice you haven't been on this forum for weeks, heck, maybe even months. Yet the past two times you have come on here you have had to attack me. Yet I'm not out publicly attacking you. I don't care if you disagree with me, Nate, but going around trying to tell me what to do and attacking my opinion is pretty childish and petty.

                                      Please, go back to playing in the sore horse world's sandbox and leave the rest of us alone.
                                      Last edited by FortheTWH; Feb. 24, 2013, 01:01 AM. Reason: change wording
                                      Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                                      www.forthetwh.com

                                      Comment


                                      • Andrea, Nate, I consider both of you to be long time awesome friends. Please.....

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.

                                          Notice how the thread gets ugly when we take the third choice ? Most of us have done it. Lets try to keep it about the horse and not squabbles between us sound horse warriors.

                                          Those that support soring and BL are fair game though.
                                          from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                                          Comment

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