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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Renae, what happened when they took them off?

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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    • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
      Renae, what happened when they took them off?

      G.
      Did you even read the studies? The effects restore, increase, improve, says it right there in scientifically conducted studies.

      What happens when you stop lifting a weight or doing an exagerated aerobic movement? You are stronger and or more flexible. And when you do those aerobic movement while holding a hand weight or wearing and ankle weight even more so. It's pretty basic G, that is the basics of exercise. I can't believe that you don't understand that, so I must think that you refuse to accept the truth. Can a horse jump Grand Prix size jumps it's first time over fences? No, but with conditioning a horse with talent can work its way up to it. The same applies to maximizing a horse's ability to trot high. I'm through discussing this topic with you because you are simply being pigheaded.

      Comment


      • What about my question? What would be the fallout if it were banned?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Renae View Post
          Did you even read the studies? The effects restore, increase, improve, says it right there in scientifically conducted studies.

          What happens when you stop lifting a weight or doing an exagerated aerobic movement? You are stronger and or more flexible. And when you do those aerobic movement while holding a hand weight or wearing and ankle weight even more so. It's pretty basic G, that is the basics of exercise. I can't believe that you don't understand that, so I must think that you refuse to accept the truth. Can a horse jump Grand Prix size jumps it's first time over fences? No, but with conditioning a horse with talent can work its way up to it. The same applies to maximizing a horse's ability to trot high. I'm through discussing this topic with you because you are simply being pigheaded.
          I read the study summaries I do not have access to PubMed. Each was dedicated to hind end issues. The discussion on "action devices" is focused on front end issues. From the get-go we're dealing in apples and oranges.

          From the studies it was not the weight of the device that caused the change it was the tactile stimulation. This altered the way of going from an abnormal movement to a more normal movement.

          It is disingenuous, at the minimum, to claim that these studies are a "clean bill of health" for devices used to stimulate hyper-movement at the front end.

          Last, and far from least, the studies don't address movement after the device was removed.

          So these are interesting if you have hind end, therapeutic movement issues. They are irrelevant to the discussion of front end movement alteration and exaggeration.

          G.
          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

          Comment


          • Resistance training in horses does increase action. I first learned about using manure/shavings/straw as cavaletti's from a hackney breeder. His Hacks had amazing action, for which they were bred, however they also like to improve the muscle tone by working them over the mounds. As the muscles tightened they used rollers/chains DURING TRAINING in the riding ring.

            Studies are a funny thing. If they do not prove what a person wants...they are discounted despite the peer reviews and checks and balances.

            excellent information Renae.

            Although muscles and forms obviously change from rear to front, the principle stays the same with resistence. One thing that has started to come under study is the type of muscle. Flat, laying ON the bone and round..corded which "appears" to be tighter. The University of Saskatoon started a study several years ago in dogs and moved it into equines. The corded muscle tended towards a tightness (which also made it prone to injury) however it gave a higher "up" motion whereas the flat muscles tended to allow for extension without injury. I will contact them and see if I can get a copy or have something to print, I remember a lot of it was the set of the neck into the shoulder..the muscles running down the shoulder line...the length of the humerus AND important..that type of muscle over the humerus. Sport horses would want a flatter muscle whereas 3G would want corded...
            The Elephant in the room

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              Ive been very busy lately gentling a new equine that joined the family. The thread has wandered on and off track but the issue of BL is alive and well. Canada sees the problem with BL and does not allow it. AAEP, AVMA ets yadda yadda get it. Some states no longer allow and several venues are dropping it. It is just a waiting game now.
              from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

              Comment


              • Good links Renae.

                I only knew of one saddlebred that went totally flat without her action device. Chains-on, she would bend her knee "a little". CHains-off, she was a daisy cutter. No amount of "front end" work changed her.
                from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Renae View Post
                  Did you even read the studies? The effects restore, increase, improve, says it right there in scientifically conducted studies.

                  What happens when you stop lifting a weight or doing an exagerated aerobic movement? You are stronger and or more flexible. And when you do those aerobic movement while holding a hand weight or wearing and ankle weight even more so. It's pretty basic G, that is the basics of exercise. I can't believe that you don't understand that, so I must think that you refuse to accept the truth. Can a horse jump Grand Prix size jumps it's first time over fences? No, but with conditioning a horse with talent can work its way up to it. The same applies to maximizing a horse's ability to trot high. I'm through discussing this topic with you because you are simply being pigheaded.
                  What happens when you stop "lifting weights?" You do not retain any "benefits."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by gogaitedgo View Post
                    What happens when you stop "lifting weights?" You do not retain any "benefits."
                    Not completely true. You "detrain" but that happens over time.

                    How long does it take the horse to "detrain?" An unanswered question.

                    G.
                    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                      So I'm curious for those that like/want/employ these weighted shoeing practices on their subsequent breeds. What would happen if they were all banned tomorrow? This is an honest question.

                      I would think it would cheaper and easier to maintain any horse. The only folks that would be on the losing end of the hypothetical scenario would be farriers.
                      Well, as far as the TWH is concerned, I would imagine that the first reaction would be that that is the end of the breed as they know it. The TWH industry is already saying the breed will go extinct if the BL goes away. I find that hilarious, since I'm pretty sure that the barefoot and flatshod champions of the breed, stallions and mares, are not just going to go *POOF* into oblivion or suddenly go infertile if the weighted shoes/stacks/etc go away.

                      The next step would be a "recession" of sorts. Shows would cut back, money would cut back, etc. For a few years there will not big any big shows on the scene, and everyone's going to sit around and try to figure out what to do. Of course, this won't stop soring--people like Barney Davis (who sored FS horses) will continue doing it. But, having the VMOs use hoof testers would help eliminate that REALLY fast.

                      During this time, the trainers who are doing it right will just keep on keepin' on. They will see an increase in the amount of horses in their barn. Maybe not much, but enough to make a difference. And they'll be the ones actually winning at the shows, not the burners and cheaters. Honest, sound training will become MUCH closer to the norm rather than cheating.

                      Then in a few years the FS horse will become the breed standard instead of the high stepping, crippled looking horse. I do believe that the industry will continue to reward the horse that steps the highest because they're truly morons who have no clue what a true FW/RW is supposed to look like. They'll still use mechanics at home to train, just like the Saddle seat world does. But at least the horses won't be sored. That to me is going to be the biggest part of this.

                      I don't believe we'll ever get rid of mechanical training. By that, I mean relying on bits, stretchies, bungies, action devices, tie-downs, bitting rigs, etc. to "train" a horse. I hate to say it, but there's just too much money in it. No, I don't agree with it, and I'm sick and tired of the horse world having become a world of cheaters, liars, and abusers. But it would be nice to see the TWH breed stop suffering as much as it does.
                      Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                      www.forthetwh.com

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Renae View Post
                        Did you even read the studies? The effects restore, increase, improve, says it right there in scientifically conducted studies.

                        What happens when you stop lifting a weight or doing an exagerated aerobic movement? You are stronger and or more flexible. And when you do those aerobic movement while holding a hand weight or wearing and ankle weight even more so. It's pretty basic G, that is the basics of exercise. I can't believe that you don't understand that, so I must think that you refuse to accept the truth. Can a horse jump Grand Prix size jumps it's first time over fences? No, but with conditioning a horse with talent can work its way up to it. The same applies to maximizing a horse's ability to trot high. I'm through discussing this topic with you because you are simply being pigheaded.
                        Renae, as Guilherme said, this was ONLY STUDYING HIND END MOVEMENT. Here are some studies that talk about adding weight to the front end and how using action devices do not make any difference in the front end OR can cause DAMAGE to the front end.

                        The Energetic and Kinematic Consequences of Weighting the Distal Limb.

                        See page 23 of this analysis, where it dermines that adding weight to the pasterns at anything under 10 ozes does not change the gait. If it does change the gait, it only does so at about 4%, which is INVISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE. Gait Analysis: Opening Doors to Understanding the Gaited Horse.

                        The Pernicious Effects of Extreme Shoeing, Soring, and Riding on the Horse and His Feet

                        So hey, we can post studies too. But we can actually post ones that are pertinent to the horse's front end rather than his hind end, which is where the heavy shoes and action devices go.
                        Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                        www.forthetwh.com

                        Comment


                        • In the Saddlebred (and Hackney) world about half the time when we use action devices it is ON THE HIND END. We value hind end action, we use leather straps or chains behind when teaching a colt to rack, I've even had a trainer I worked under have me ride a horse with stretchers on behind because he interfered and he wanted the horse to learn to travel wider behind (and it worked). So when you Walking Horse people talk of banning action devices throughout the horse world, even where they are NOT used for soring, that is not right because you don't even understand why trainers in other breeds do use them. Do whatever you want with the Walking Horse breed, but keep your noses out of the trotting horse world.

                          Comment


                          • Mmmmm....

                            Now I do not mean to come across as a fence sitter on this. But if I do - so be it.

                            I seen no reason to try and counter Renae's links to studies. I think and know saddlebreds are never intentionally hurt by any action device - including shoeing. They move exuberant, exaggerated and yet freely right left forward and back no matter the shoe.

                            Not so the encumbered stacked chained plantation shod foot dragging TWH.

                            Hugh difference between them.


                            So it really needs to be said that the other high stepping breeds are excluded from HPA6388 for more than just political reasons. And in my humble limited opinion it is because of 1) the horses trot sound. 2) they have never been subjected to soring.

                            And I do believe and have seen for myself the self limiting forces at work there that Renae pointed out - and that is the judging.


                            SO I think her influence on this thread should be welcomed and her thought out posts should be given heed.

                            And it is ONLY TWH padded folks that insist all high stepping breeds are sored. They are not.

                            ANd not all shoeing is the same. Neither are all barefoot trims the same.

                            SO I hope she stays in this discussion.

                            Her influence is appreciated by me for sure.
                            from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                            Comment


                            • Ditto the hind action. Lordy yes!
                              from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                                Renae, what happened when they took them off?

                                G.
                                I think your question is did the device teach the horse anything?


                                The answer would be no.


                                But to the trainer the question is whether the device enhanced the range of motion.

                                The answer would be yes. And it was not harmful. And it made room for more potential ROM. This potential can be tapped on a horse in a performance for sure.

                                JMO
                                from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Renae View Post
                                  In the Saddlebred (and Hackney) world about half the time when we use action devices it is ON THE HIND END. We value hind end action, we use leather straps or chains behind when teaching a colt to rack, I've even had a trainer I worked under have me ride a horse with stretchers on behind because he interfered and he wanted the horse to learn to travel wider behind (and it worked). So when you Walking Horse people talk of banning action devices throughout the horse world, even where they are NOT used for soring, that is not right because you don't even understand why trainers in other breeds do use them. Do whatever you want with the Walking Horse breed, but keep your noses out of the trotting horse world.
                                  You've actually answered none of the questions. Your links answered none of the questions. Your rants (and those of Fairfax) answered none of the questions. So they still stand.

                                  G.
                                  Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                                    You've actually answered none of the questions. Your links answered none of the questions. Your rants (and those of Fairfax) answered none of the questions. So they still stand.

                                    G.
                                    I agree. And I thought this thread was about TWHs, not about ASBs.
                                    Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                                    www.forthetwh.com

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Renae View Post
                                      In the Saddlebred (and Hackney) world about half the time when we use action devices it is ON THE HIND END. We value hind end action, we use leather straps or chains behind when teaching a colt to rack, I've even had a trainer I worked under have me ride a horse with stretchers on behind because he interfered and he wanted the horse to learn to travel wider behind (and it worked). So when you Walking Horse people talk of banning action devices throughout the horse world, even where they are NOT used for soring, that is not right because you don't even understand why trainers in other breeds do use them. Do whatever you want with the Walking Horse breed, but keep your noses out of the trotting horse world.
                                      Well, if you actually read the amendment, it specifically states that pads, chains, bands, and action devices will be banned for the TENNESSEE WALKING HORSES, RACKING HORSES, and SPOTTED SADDLE HORSES. So your precious mechanical ways of training will stay.

                                      I think you're the one who stuck your nose in here. I have never said anything about ASBs. I thought this thread was about TWHs, which is I was talking about.

                                      And yes, I do understand how it all works. And quite frankly, I don't care. It is ridiculous that in this day and age, when there is so much information out there about how to train a horse up to his full potential without using mechanics that mechanics are still used. The Saddle Seat horses have no true impulsion behind, and travel in an upside down frame--it's all faked and forced. It's sad when horse "trainers" have actually become mechanics--how much can we manipulate the horse to get what we think looks purty?
                                      Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                                      www.forthetwh.com

                                      Comment


                                      • Andrea - Renae and her folks have plenty good reason to participate on this thread. HR6388 as written does not seek to impact those breeds that work under the guidelines of USEF with action devices. USEF guidelines are acceptable to the Vet associations that support this bill.

                                        Who better to have included in this discussion than her?

                                        I think you are in error with your reasoning on this.

                                        Narrowing who discusses this is not in the interest of the TWH at all.
                                        from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                                          Andrea - Renae and her folks have plenty good reason to participate on this thread. HR6388 as written does not seek to impact those breeds that work under the guidelines of USEF with action devices. USEF guidelines are acceptable to the Vet associations that support this bill.

                                          Who better to have included in this discussion than her?

                                          I think you are in error with your reasoning on this.

                                          Narrowing who discusses this is not in the interest of the TWH at all.
                                          I don't understand, then. It just seemed a bit ridiculous to be talking about how to use mechanics for training on ASBs when the title of the thread is "Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue." The ASB community is not in danger of losing their mechanical means of training, so I don't see where it's relevant. ASBs are not trained the same way TWHs are because first, they don't sore their horses, and second, they are trotting or racking and not performing a lateral gait, so their training methods don't work on TWHs.

                                          Don't get me wrong--there are a lot of people in the ASB world who have also been involved in the TWH industry. I would hope they would actually stand up and help us rather than hinder with this problem by condoning the actions of the TWH industry. Unfortunately I find more often than not that ASB folks actually are condoning the abuse by defending pads, chains, and bands which are not necessary for training in general. As a reminder, HR 6388 DOES NOT apply to them. We need them to help us get this passed--they know as well as we do that stacks, chains, bands, wedges, and heavy shoes are used to sore horses in the TWH industry, and that's why they are exempt from the amendment--they DON'T break the federal law that is the HPA.

                                          Overall, I don't poke my nose in the ASB folks' business. I don't go on ASB threads and talk about how TWHs are trained. But it's okay for them to come on here and post their studies and the like on a thread that's supposed to be about the TWH? Yet when I counter and talk about studies done specifically about the TWH and point out that Renae's studies are on the HIND LIMBS rather than the FRONT LIMBS that are the issue in the TWH industry, I get reprimanded? I don't get it.
                                          Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                                          www.forthetwh.com

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