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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • That poster specifically stated Auburn. That was why I ask. Until quantitative studies are completed the jury will have to be out. The TWH horse does have a disadvantage. They SHOW with chains.
    The Elephant in the room

    Comment


    • In all fairness, there are many show practices that are horrid. It takes the mentality of winning over the comfort of the horse to come up with some of the vile practices in almost every type of horse show. Let's see, we've got rollkur in dressage, halter Arabians, western pleasure, jackpot barrel racing, just to name a few controversies.

      I find it interesting that so many new horse sports are out there now. Mounted shooting (which looks like a lot of fun), ranch horse events, and extreme trail riding (some of which make me flinch) are all relatively recent additions. I think the new directions people try with their horses are many times due to disillusionment with the traditional horse shows. I hope we continue to evolve and diversify because it takes time for the win-at-all-cost types to figure out how to manipulate the training and turn a fairly normal event into something grotesque.

      I think one reason the BL shows are so bad is that they have been around so long and people keep pushing the horses further and further until the show gait isn't recognizable to anyone outside of the dedicated enthusiast. It's slow conditioning to a new normal and then people defending the practices of those that came before them as well as adding on new 'tricks' until many horse people outside of BL folks feel physically ill watching shows. It takes time to get to that extreme.
      “Pray, hope, and don't worry.”

      St. Padre Pio

      Comment


      • 40 years ago at Devon, I remember watching a pet pony class. There was 3 or 4 Saddlebred and Hackney ponies and a local girl with her typical Welsh cross. Her pony was spot on. Never made a bad move while the others jigged and fussed about (read the guidelines for a pet pony class) Of course, she was pinned at the bottom. The comment I remember hearing at ringside was "It's a good thing "Little Megan" got pinned. Dad spent a lot of bucks on that pony".

        Not impressed with "Champion anything" after that. I need to see the work. After that I showed with a grain of salt and the ribbons weren't quite as brightly colored.

        Sorry, just rambling. Back to the bickering. Meanwhile the horses are still hurting.
        Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
          40 years ago at Devon, I remember watching a pet pony class. There was 3 or 4 Saddlebred and Hackney ponies and a local girl with her typical Welsh cross. Her pony was spot on. Never made a bad move while the others jigged and fussed about (read the guidelines for a pet pony class) Of course, she was pinned at the bottom. The comment I remember hearing at ringside was "It's a good thing "Little Megan" got pinned. Dad spent a lot of bucks on that pony".
          Pet pony? Really? Pet Pony classes that I am familiar with are for ponies 12 hands and under, which would be a highly unusually small size for a Saddlebred Pony. Being that the class was at Devon it is more likely that the class was Three-Gaited Saddle Pony, which is judged as a Three-Gaited Saddlebred class, and though the ponies do not have to be registered anything they are to be of Saddlebred type. They perfrom an animated walk (which can be four or two beat, but should not be a flat four beat walk), park trot and canter.

          Again this thread is wandering back to the area of reasoning on the parts of some that shows why those of us who do enjoy showing Saddlebreds, Morgans, Hackneys and Arabians do not offer support to your efforts. Yes, soring is horrible. Using action devices and shoeing our horses properly for the discipline we compete in is not soring. It does not injure the horse. We can argue back and forth all day but training saddle seat trotting horses is what I actually do for a living and that I am argueing with people who have never done so (and some of you who have never even seen a Saddlebred, Morgan, Arabian or Hackney show horse or pony) and who have no first hand experience is just pointless. Many here say they want this thread to be abou Walking Horses and soring. Then I am telling YOU to stay on topic.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
            I am sure you know Kathleen Ross Scopetti, Jerry Beghtol, Tim Cherry etc since you have been involved for 14 years.

            Problem with BL is it does NOT appeal to the horseman but it does to the NON horse owner spectator.
            Thank you for throwing names around, but it really doesn't impress me as to who you know. I'm talking about the Carousel horse show, not the Arabian Horse Show. That place is a haven for abuse...no thanks. I only go for the vendors.

            No, it's not appealing to the non-horse spectator too. Take a look at comments on YouTube--people are disgusted by it from all walks of life. Like I said, I saw spectators walk away from the BL classes with disgusted looks on their faces. I stopped them to ask why they were leaving and they told me because it was so ugly and the horses must be in horrible pain. This was when I still thought the BL was okay and soring wasn't going on anymore...now I know better.

            BUT, you also pointed something out there: That it doesn't appeal to the horseman. You're exactly right. TRUE horsemen know better not to force their horses to look like crippled spiders in order to win a ribbon. And if there aren't any horsemen getting into the business, then how is it going to survive?
            Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
            www.forthetwh.com

            Comment


            • I've actually had horses that came up with bruises after using 6 oz chains before. I didn't say that that information was included in the Auburn Study. But my point is you were saying there was no study done about chains causing soring, and there in fact is. I like how you try to double back on what you say...it's very much like so many other people who support the BL.
              Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
              www.forthetwh.com

              Comment


              • No, chains don't help develop muscle. A horse gets used to chains after just a few seconds of wearing them. And it's been proven by Dr. Nicodemus that chains do not change the arch of a horse's hoof--they do nothing to make the horse lift his legs higher. Click here--see use of Pastern Chain Weights slide.
                Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                www.forthetwh.com

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                  I do not believe this this correct. If you have a specific citation that would be a help.
                  See Phase VI: Determination of Thermographic Patterns in Response to
                  l0 oz. chains starting on page 4 of the Auburn Study.
                  Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                  www.forthetwh.com

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by microbovine View Post
                    In all fairness, there are many show practices that are horrid.
                    True, but soring is the only practice that actually has a federal law that makes it illegal. That's where my fight comes from. If someone makes a law against the rest of the stuff, I'll get behind in 100%.

                    And shoot, the BL isn't even a running walk anymore. Most of those horses are stepping pacing or dead pacing. The gait has been completely ruined.
                    Last edited by FortheTWH; Feb. 11, 2013, 02:43 PM. Reason: added a missing word
                    Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                    www.forthetwh.com

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                      Showing does NOT lead to abuse.
                      Then why does abuse exist in the show ring, and why do judges still reward it?

                      And as far as I know, allowing horses to go natural barefoot is NOT abuse. There are entire studies done on it and vets and various farriers who are all for it.
                      Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                      www.forthetwh.com

                      Comment


                      • "Sadly...a few of you are blinded by your own contemp of anyone who is Not You/"

                        Hello, Kettle? This is Pot. You're black.

                        "I stated the NON horse people in the stands who do not know what the horse has to go through just think they are trained to do that...they don't consider how the horse is trained. That is why the stands will filled at Celebration."

                        ROTFL! They certainly weren't filled last year! One look at the videos shows you TONS of empty seats at the Celebration, even for the final WGC class.

                        "Spectators watch car races...they don't understand the work going into it. They go to drink beer and cheer. If they see a BL class they don't take time to analyze it."

                        You don't get it, do you? They are DISGUSTED by the look, and they don't WANT to learn about it because it's ugly. Why would anyone want to learn about something that repulses them? People who hate spiders don't go out and buy books about them. They walk away and don't go near them.

                        And quite frankly, all of the NASCAR fans I know absolutely DO know how the cars work and the work that goes into it. Same with basketball fans, baseball fans, polo fans, hockey fans... You are really stretching to prove your point.

                        "Since the contempt for horse shows is showing...why don't you get all shows for TWH's stopped. Enjoy them on the trail, in the field and stay away from the show ring."

                        Sounds great to me. If that's what it would take to stop the abuse, I'm all for it. I'm sick and tired of listening to the excuses and the lies. Everyone has to justify why they need to torture horses...how about let's just take away the ability to do it all together? The cheaters and those who support them have completely abused the privilege of not only putting whatever they want on the horse's feet but also the privilege of owning and training horses. It's time for a true end to soring, NOW, once and for all.

                        Horse shows, no matter what breed or discipline, are all about the judge's, trainer's, and rider's egos. It's very, very rare to find riders who are actually trying to improve on their craft and better themselves and their partnership with the horses. I would say only in the Olympics do we see the true meaning of horsemanship, and even then it can be iffy.
                        Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                        www.forthetwh.com

                        Comment


                        • I wasn't talking about Arab shows. The Carousel Show is held in March. The show I was referring to at Westworld that I donated my time to was the last of the series in October. I have Saddlebreds.
                          The Elephant in the room

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FortheTWH View Post
                            "Sadly...a few of you are blinded by your own contemp of anyone who is Not You/"

                            Hello, Kettle? This is Pot. You're black.

                            "I stated the NON horse people in the stands who do not know what the horse has to go through just think they are trained to do that...they don't consider how the horse is trained. That is why the stands will filled at Celebration."

                            ROTFL! They certainly weren't filled last year! One look at the videos shows you TONS of empty seats at the Celebration, even for the final WGC class.

                            "Spectators watch car races...they don't understand the work going into it. They go to drink beer and cheer. If they see a BL class they don't take time to analyze it."

                            You don't get it, do you? They are DISGUSTED by the look, and they don't WANT to learn about it because it's ugly. Why would anyone want to learn about something that repulses them? People who hate spiders don't go out and buy books about them. They walk away and don't go near them.

                            And quite frankly, all of the NASCAR fans I know absolutely DO know how the cars work and the work that goes into it. Same with basketball fans, baseball fans, polo fans, hockey fans... You are really stretching to prove your point.

                            "Since the contempt for horse shows is showing...why don't you get all shows for TWH's stopped. Enjoy them on the trail, in the field and stay away from the show ring."

                            Sounds great to me. If that's what it would take to stop the abuse, I'm all for it. I'm sick and tired of listening to the excuses and the lies. Everyone has to justify why they need to torture horses...how about let's just take away the ability to do it all together? The cheaters and those who support them have completely abused the privilege of not only putting whatever they want on the horse's feet but also the privilege of owning and training horses. It's time for a true end to soring, NOW, once and for all.

                            Horse shows, no matter what breed or discipline, are all about the judge's, trainer's, and rider's egos. It's very, very rare to find riders who are actually trying to improve on their craft and better themselves and their partnership with the horses. I would say only in the Olympics do we see the true meaning of horsemanship, and even then it can be iffy.
                            You need to get out of Arizona or read this tread from start to finish. Celebration spectators did stay away THIS year. That was due to the awesome letter writing, the expose on the abuse, the articles (right or wrong) by Roy.

                            The year before the stands will full. No..the average nascar viewer could not build a car from scratch, learn the ins andouts of driving at those high speeds. The average spectator of a hockey game doesn't understand the edges on skates and the hours of practice going into stick handling. Why do you think on the TV in the states many times there is a blue circle showing WHERE the puck is.

                            Many fans DO understand the sports they support and many can spout the running records of every football player. Doesn't mean they could go out and make the quarter back calls.

                            The horses were the same. Spectators..those who are just there because it is part of the celebration don't know what a stack is. They don't have a clue about mustard oil and dmso cocktails. All they know is the horse moves in a Freaky manner...they do NOT know about the abuse.

                            I don't know about barefoot classes... how about if others who do show the TWH comment on that...would there be a demand in the show ring? A horse show is to SHOW the horse..hopefully to expand a client base. All the trail riding doesn't promote a breed except to "already" horse owners

                            Plantation flat shod classes seem to have their soring issues.
                            The Elephant in the room

                            Comment


                            • Thank you, Fairfax. You just proved everyone's points here. You have to find excuses to keep your precious stacked horses in the ring. When presented with facts, even anecdotal ones, you have to fight it. It's very clear that you have no problem with things as they are.

                              Actually, I have been to A LOT of sore horse shows in CA. Watched soring first hand when the BL was present at the Carousel. And since you didn't do work at the Carousel, then how do you know what's been going on at it? The Futurity is not a big show for any of the other gaited breeds other than the ASBs.

                              So my final question for you is this: if you are truly against soring, what are you doing to help stop it? Are you contacting the HIOs and asking for stronger penalties, or do you think the penalties are good enough, which they aren't since soring is still rampant? Are you asking for people like McConnell to be banned from showing for life, or are you helping support those people by praising their "training" abilities? Are you standing up against the HIOs and saying ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, or are you just letting them "handle it", when they clearly can't stop soring after over 40 years of the HPA being in place? Are you turning your back when known multiple HPA violators enter the ring, or do you continue to cheer them on?

                              Coming on here and trying to discount everything we say does nothing but confirm our suspicions: that people want the sore horse to stay in the ring, period. If this industry TRULY wanted sore horses to be gone, they could easily get rid of them. But since they're not going to do it, I'm going to keep exposing the lies and excuses for what they truly are, and I'm going to continue to support the USDA and the new amendment when it gets reintroduced.
                              Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                              www.forthetwh.com

                              Comment


                              • ***I NEED TO POINT THIS OUT.*** Someone was kind enough to send me a message and say that not all horse events are about egos. I absolutely agree with this person, that people in eventing, cross country, dressage, polo, competitive driving, Grand prix, endurance, the TRUE horse sports are absolutely places where the rider and the horse are always having to work hard together and challenge themselves to do better. (I don't include TB racing in this, however.) Sure, there are cheaters, but they're rare, and at least the associations are actually looking for them and they are severely punished for it or even banned.

                                The rail classes are the places where it's all about the humans' egos. Cheaters are common, and judges reward the cheaters on a regular basis even when they KNOW they're cheating, so no one has incentive NOT to cheat. This is where we need to see this end. Rail horse shows have become ridiculous parodies of what the horses once were, and many times abuse is used to get those parodies. It absolutely needs to end.
                                Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                                www.forthetwh.com

                                Comment


                                • ForTheTWH you really are nieve. Polo? They just recently started drug testing their ponies after the big fiasco in their sport of 21 ponies dieing after a compounding error with a drug they were given. Every other horse sport you have named has drug problems as well. Dressage has rolkur. Eventing and combined driving have horrific accidents where horses die or are severely injured. At the 2002 World Equestrian Games 2 endurance horses were ridden to death.

                                  To single out rail classes for your attack and think these other disciplines are completely above it all, that is about the most nieve statement I have ever heard.

                                  You ask why people don't support your actions. We don't support your actions because you are attacking our breeds, which do not use soring (Saddlebreds, Morgans, Hackneys, Arabians), and condeming us for enjoying saddle seat riding. Action devices do not sore, or have any greater risk of injury to the horse than a saddle, bridle or harness. As has been pointed out a horse is just as at risk for injury being asked to trot over caveletti. Shoeing a trotting saddle seat horse appropriately for the sport does not cause lameness. You can continue to shriek otherwise, but that does not make your rants true.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Renae View Post
                                    Pet pony? Really? Pet Pony classes that I am familiar with are for ponies 12 hands and under, which would be a highly unusually small size for a Saddlebred Pony. Being that the class was at Devon it is more likely that the class was Three-Gaited Saddle Pony, which is judged as a Three-Gaited Saddlebred class, and though the ponies do not have to be registered anything they are to be of Saddlebred type. They perfrom an animated walk (which can be four or two beat, but should not be a flat four beat walk), park trot and canter.

                                    Again this thread is wandering back to the area of reasoning on the parts of some that shows why those of us who do enjoy showing Saddlebreds, Morgans, Hackneys and Arabians do not offer support to your efforts. Yes, soring is horrible. Using action devices and shoeing our horses properly for the discipline we compete in is not soring. It does not injure the horse. We can argue back and forth all day but training saddle seat trotting horses is what I actually do for a living and that I am argueing with people who have never done so (and some of you who have never even seen a Saddlebred, Morgan, Arabian or Hackney show horse or pony) and who have no first hand experience is just pointless. Many here say they want this thread to be abou Walking Horses and soring. Then I am telling YOU to stay on topic.
                                    I rescued a Morgan mare recently that had been trained for saddleseat shows. She is calm and relaxed on the trail. She is terrified in the arena. Your chains and training isn't all sunshine and daisies. Previous owners said she was sent off to a big name trainer and came back like that. They told me it isn't unusual for that to happen. Tell me, did you train your horse yourself? Were you there at EVERY training session? DO you know every little trick your trainer used? All the proof I need is in my horse's frightened eyes.
                                    “Pray, hope, and don't worry.”

                                    St. Padre Pio

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by microbovine View Post
                                      I rescued a Morgan mare recently that had been trained for saddleseat shows. She is calm and relaxed on the trail. She is terrified in the arena. Your chains and training isn't all sunshine and daisies. Previous owners said she was sent off to a big name trainer and came back like that. They told me it isn't unusual for that to happen. Tell me, did you train your horse yourself? Were you there at EVERY training session? DO you know every little trick your trainer used? All the proof I need is in my horse's frightened eyes.
                                      I am a Saddlebred trainer. I have trained Arabians, Half-Arabians and Hackneys as well. Yes, it is unusual for that to happen, so if you have someone saying that it is usual then I would highly suggest you avoid them.

                                      Comment


                                      • Thanks for the input, but I would not have any use for a saddlebred trainer. If you aren't abusive, I fear you are in the minority.

                                        That being said, I am pretty much soured off breed type shows. If I ever step into a competition arena again, it will be doing something wildly fun, like mounted shooting. I was an excellent shot in the military (qualified sharpshooter and then expert) and I think it would be fun to combine that with riding.
                                        “Pray, hope, and don't worry.”

                                        St. Padre Pio

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Renae View Post
                                          ForTheTWH you really are nieve. Polo? They just recently started drug testing their ponies after the big fiasco in their sport of 21 ponies dieing after a compounding error with a drug they were given. Every other horse sport you have named has drug problems as well. Dressage has rolkur. Eventing and combined driving have horrific accidents where horses die or are severely injured. At the 2002 World Equestrian Games 2 endurance horses were ridden to death.

                                          To single out rail classes for your attack and think these other disciplines are completely above it all, that is about the most nieve statement I have ever heard.

                                          You ask why people don't support your actions. We don't support your actions because you are attacking our breeds, which do not use soring (Saddlebreds, Morgans, Hackneys, Arabians), and condeming us for enjoying saddle seat riding. Action devices do not sore, or have any greater risk of injury to the horse than a saddle, bridle or harness. As has been pointed out a horse is just as at risk for injury being asked to trot over caveletti. Shoeing a trotting saddle seat horse appropriately for the sport does not cause lameness. You can continue to shriek otherwise, but that does not make your rants true.
                                          The commonly sold item in tack shops are saddle pads. I'd bet money that "rose colored glasses" are second.

                                          G.
                                          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                          Comment

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