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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
    Chains alone, do NOT sore a horse..of any breed. Neither do rollers...I can not find any study that chains cause soring despite the urban legends presented.
    The Auburn Study (linked here) states that using chains heavier than 6 ozs without chemicals absolutely DO cause pain to a horse's pasterns, including rubbing and hair loss. And even 6 oz chains can cause bruising if used for long periods of time. You might want to work some more on doing research.
    Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
    www.forthetwh.com

    Comment


    • The objectives of this study were to evaluate the use of 2, 4
      and 6 ounce chains in Tennessee Walking Horses, without using any
      other chemical or mechanical technique to induce inflammation.
      Use of 2, 4 and 6 oz. chains did not cause any detectable pain,
      tissue damage. Thermographic and pressure evaluation did not change
      significantly. Thus, it was concluded that the use of 2, 4 and 6 oz.
      chains for a duration of 2to 3 weeks did not produce any harmful
      effects to the horses’ legs, with exception to some loss of hair
      from 6 oz. chains in the pastern areas.



      I have read the report numerous times and was unable to locate your claim that even 6 oz chains can cause bruising "in THIS study"

      Please direct me to the study you are referring to regarding 6 oz chains.
      The Elephant in the room

      Comment


      • My My My...what a stretch.

        I do not support abuse period.

        Chains when used as a training TOOL are no more abusive than a whip. Both can be used as weapons however THAT would be abuse.

        Letting a horse know where its feet are when training to lift is very important. It also shows the trainer that when there is a tool used i.e. roller aor chain a cross forge might start to occur. This is VERY important to know for the farrier.

        Do you train or show horses gogait?

        I would appreciate your input from a training persepctive
        The Elephant in the room

        Comment


        • Gotta add my favorite trainer - really finds and trains a nice powerful gait on the walking horse:


          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCCJZJQoG_M

          She moved to Tennessee from Oregon just recently. SHe has been very successful for her flat shod walking horses before and after the move.

          And FairFax - where ever you choose to go to get acquainted with the real deal walking horse's gaits, breeding, trainers etc - here is what I would wish for you to do. When the trainer brings out one to ride - I want you to just turn your back or close your eyes and listen to the gait. Those pushing pulling true walking feet make a very unique sound - it is more than just a 4 beat... Once you hear it - the sound will never leave you. Then turn around, open your eyes and enjoy.

          Maybe if you play nice enough they will let you hop up.

          And no doubt you will see there is a whole lot of powerful grace in that rhythmic head nodding push and pull of the true walking horse.
          from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

          Comment


          • I am very proud of a filly I bred ribboned as Reserve Champion Futurity at the Arizona Furity show a few years ago. I was also very pleased to be "gate control" for two years. I watched the TWH classes with one or two entries so I am very happy to read you stating there are increased numbers.

            I have been showing at Scottsdale for around 50 years so I believe I have a little experience out of my backyard. The Arabian show last year actually showed an increase so manybe that will become a new trend. Any growth in any breed actually helps everyone

            I do understand what you are saying about volunteering..no one wants to give their time and if the show is professionally run with the added expense many don't want to enter.

            I am sure you know Kathleen Ross Scopetti, Jerry Beghtol, Tim Cherry etc since you have been involved for 14 years.

            Problem with BL is it does NOT appeal to the horseman but it does to the NON horse owner spectator. Celebration of the Horse held in Tacoma washington for many years featured a BL and the crowds would wait until he was coming in the ring so they could ooo and ahh

            Shows are expensive if they are class A and there is a growing trend for those who want to participate but not pay for stabling etc to attend the B & C circuits. ASHA (Saddlebred) does list these wins when submitted in their data for the horse. It is a great promotional tool for any breed registration.

            What I have stated is the TWH folk are going to have a great impact if they can mass enter shows to clearly demonstrate to spectators that flat shod classes are fun, exciting and are on horses that are a pleasure to be around.

            I have the Walking Way from December 1986 to November 88 and if anyone is interested and willing to pay the surface postage from Canada I would be happy to send them. The magazine was known as the Pulse of the Plantation Industry and yuppers..they have my name on them on the address tab as I subscribed...while I do not know much about the breed I have watched it for many a year.
            The Elephant in the room

            Comment


            • Hurleycane

              I was so fortunate during the 80's to visit the TWH farms of Rosemary Jordan around Edmonton and Helen Williamson of Calgary. Both allowed me to ride and enjoy that head nodding "ear flapping" gait. I have closed my eyes and listened to the beat. I do the same with the racking ASB's...

              As mentioned..my grandfather had a TWH for his own personal ranch mount. I do remember riding with him however I was too young to remember much about it. I will see if I can locate a picture of him ..I do remember he was colored (Palomino)
              Last edited by Fairfax; Feb. 10, 2013, 02:00 PM.
              The Elephant in the room

              Comment


              • Then Fairfax do you agree (or remember) that though they beat 4 in even time, there is a great difference in the foot sound and saddle feel of these two distinct gaits?
                from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                Comment


                • There is a difference in the sound for sure. The feel of the gait was strange..it wasn't until Rosemary said....YES...she's doing it..that I was able to relax "into" the gait and I felt like I was air kite gliding...We zooned along WITHOUT the rocking back and forth that usually bothers a persons back. I did NOT like the canter. I found it short gaited on both horses and very choppy to ride.
                  The Elephant in the room

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FortheTWH View Post
                    The Auburn Study (linked here) states that using chains heavier than 6 ozs without chemicals absolutely DO cause pain to a horse's pasterns, including rubbing and hair loss. And even 6 oz chains can cause bruising if used for long periods of time. You might want to work some more on doing research.
                    I do not believe this this correct. If you have a specific citation that would be a help.

                    It's not the chain, itself, that is the issue. It's the movement that the chain induces that is the problem. Whether you get this movement by a legal means (lawful action device) or a soring agent the net result is bad for the horse.

                    Action devices of any kind are the province of the incompetent, the lazy, and/or the ignorant. They are not "training devices" they are "anti-training devices." We know this because as soon as you remove the device the desired action "goes away." If it "trained" anything the action would persist; it doesn't.

                    If the use is by the ignorant then they can learn the error of their ways and proceed in less harmful ways. If they choose not to learn or alter their behavior then we strike "ignorant" and replace it with "stupid" or "abusive." Or maybe both.

                    G.
                    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                      The objectives of this study were to evaluate the use of 2, 4
                      and 6 ounce chains in Tennessee Walking Horses, without using any
                      other chemical or mechanical technique to induce inflammation.
                      Use of 2, 4 and 6 oz. chains did not cause any detectable pain,
                      tissue damage. Thermographic and pressure evaluation did not change
                      significantly. Thus, it was concluded that the use of 2, 4 and 6 oz.
                      chains for a duration of 2to 3 weeks did not produce any harmful
                      effects to the horses’ legs, with exception to some loss of hair
                      from 6 oz. chains in the pastern areas.



                      I have read the report numerous times and was unable to locate your claim that even 6 oz chains can cause bruising "in THIS study"

                      Please direct me to the study you are referring to regarding 6 oz chains.
                      I want to see video of YOU jogging in the sand with 6 oz chains on your bare ankles for the same schedule you think is ok for horses. Make sure you get a fellow abuser to hitch a ride on your back.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                        My My My...what a stretch.

                        I do not support abuse period.

                        Chains when used as a training TOOL are no more abusive than a whip. Both can be used as weapons however THAT would be abuse.

                        Letting a horse know where its feet are when training to lift is very important. It also shows the trainer that when there is a tool used i.e. roller aor chain a cross forge might start to occur. This is VERY important to know for the farrier.

                        Do you train or show horses gogait?

                        I would appreciate your input from a training persepctive
                        I have trained and trail ridden with 3 different gaited mares. BAREFOOT in a SNAFFLE. Showing leads to abuse, in every discipline. How high does a horse have to lift to satisfy you? Are you EVER satisfied? Working on the video yet?

                        Comment


                        • Point is..to some on other thread, a harness on a horse is ABUSE--see carriage horse thread.

                          Lazy? I don't think so. Over at least 30 years they have done WHAT I EXPECTED them to. I live in an area where there is NO sand. No loam soil...we are desert dryland and have a very heavy type of soil. clay...

                          By using the chains, inconjunction with my previously described manure/shaving/ cavaletti, it helps them develope MUSCLE. I have stated chains will NOT give a horse action it does not have.

                          Guilherm..I have bred and trained numerous top ten and national champions in the Arabian division. I learned from old time trainers who were NEVER abusive but they did understand anatomy. Resistence training etc.

                          Gogait..is the rider abusive when they are on the horses back?

                          The chains are NOT...just because you THINK they are..the tests state NOPE. If you dispute that, then you must dispute that 8 oz or more cause soring..

                          Don't cherry pick the study when it does not confirm what YOU want it to .

                          Do you train? Do you show? Please share your success with us and please share YOUR training techniques. Or...are you just a desk chair jockey.?

                          I get tired of posters taking bonifide tests and examinations and then discounting them because they do not agree.

                          Don't use chains or rollers. But also don't accuse others of abuse when the study states there is NO effect even with thermal imaging.

                          Also, don't use wood bar cavaletti's--you can bang the sole or clip the toe causing soreness.
                          The Elephant in the room

                          Comment


                          • "Problem with BL is it does NOT appeal to the horseman but it does to the NON horse owner spectator."

                            No it doesn't. NO ONE, horse owner or not I have ever shown that abusive crap to liked it or thought it was "pretty.". It takes a special, sick mind to get off on a beautiful animals agony. Those "people" cheering? Lickers one and all.

                            Comment


                            • What type of lift did you accomplish? As long as it was to the class specifications, then so be it. Or wait...trail ridden...there you go....as long as it can step over a stone, that is all it is asked of it.

                              Showing does NOT lead to abuse. I know people who have shown all of their life and they love it and their horses and there is absolutely NO abuse. Conversley, I have seen trail riders abusing their horses with poor fitting equipment, no shoes on a rocky terrain.spurring, whipping.... you name it.

                              I guess you must attack others which tends to point out "you were caught" cherry picking the study.

                              Did you know the Snaffle can be one of the most abusive bits known within the equestrian circle. there IS a group trying to have them outlawed.

                              Also, many trainers have to reclaim a horses mouth after the Ammy tried to push the horse into the bit.
                              The Elephant in the room

                              Comment


                              • Sadly...a few of you are blinded by your own contemp of anyone who is Not You/

                                I stated the NON horse people in the stands who do not know what the horse has to go through just think they are trained to do that...they don't consider how the horse is trained. That is why the stands will filled at Celebration.

                                Spectators watch car races...they don't understand the work going into it. They go to drink beer and cheer. If they see a BL class they don't take time to analyze it.

                                Since the contempt for horse shows is showing...why don't you get all shows for TWH's stopped. Enjoy them on the trail, in the field and stay away from the show ring.

                                That is a final solution that should work. I juwswt don't think everyone on this board who owns TWH's will agree with that.
                                The Elephant in the room

                                Comment


                                • As long as you are honest and clearly state you disagree with ALL show ring activities for the TWH I can live with that. But don't hide behind a smug veil of self righteousness.

                                  The Preacher who who many of you slobber over admit they have become KINDER trainers...his wife trained and rode BL. They now train plantation style .
                                  The Elephant in the room

                                  Comment


                                  • The studies being referred to here are outdated and used a low test sample (8 horses in the Auburn). Due to flaws and dating of the original studies, the AAEP recommended additional studies in their summary.

                                    (This is the Google docs version for easier reading).

                                    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...MK5ralYLJv_U6Q

                                    Every horseman knows that the coronet band is sensitive. Add on the known practice of teaching TWHs not to flinch in the arena and the fact that heavier chains are used outside the show ring and you have yourself a bad reputation and a public that is sick to death of the entire practice.
                                    “Pray, hope, and don't worry.”

                                    St. Padre Pio

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                      What type of lift did you accomplish? As long as it was to the class specifications, then so be it. Or wait...trail ridden...there you go....as long as it can step over a stone, that is all it is asked of it.

                                      Showing does NOT lead to abuse. I know people who have shown all of their life and they love it and their horses and there is absolutely NO abuse. Conversley, I have seen trail riders abusing their horses with poor fitting equipment, no shoes on a rocky terrain.spurring, whipping.... you name it.

                                      I guess you must attack others which tends to point out "you were caught" cherry picking the study.

                                      Did you know the Snaffle can be one of the most abusive bits known within the equestrian circle. there IS a group trying to have them outlawed.

                                      Also, many trainers have to reclaim a horses mouth after the Ammy tried to push the horse into the bit.
                                      I didn't cherry pick anything. I just said I would like to see you have to do what you think is not abusive. Yeah, you are one of those show snobs. If it doesn't happen in front of a paid judge, it doesn't mean anything. And yes,showing leads to abuse. Horses, dogs, cats, bunnies, anywhere man gets involved to "improve" things.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                        Sadly...a few of you are blinded by your own contemp of anyone who is Not You/

                                        I stated the NON horse people in the stands who do not know what the horse has to go through just think they are trained to do that...they don't consider how the horse is trained. That is why the stands will filled at Celebration.

                                        Spectators watch car races...they don't understand the work going into it. They go to drink beer and cheer. If they see a BL class they don't take time to analyze it.

                                        Since the contempt for horse shows is showing...why don't you get all shows for TWH's stopped. Enjoy them on the trail, in the field and stay away from the show ring.

                                        That is a final solution that should work. I juwswt don't think everyone on this board who owns TWH's will agree with that.
                                        I want the abuse stopped. Other than that, you can ride in a circle and pay to pretend you are H/S all day long.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                          As long as you are honest and clearly state you disagree with ALL show ring activities for the TWH I can live with that. But don't hide behind a smug veil of self righteousness.

                                          The Preacher who who many of you slobber over admit they have become KINDER trainers...his wife trained and rode BL. They now train plantation style .
                                          I don't slobber over anyone.

                                          Comment

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