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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Dear Polite Drink: Sound and stacked/chained are not congruous.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

    Comment


    • Originally posted by microbovine View Post
      I am so confused.

      Do we all agree, well, with the obvious exception of Cordial, that soring TWH's for BL shows is bad?

      If the flat shod shows aren't good enough, find something else to do that doesn't physically harm the horse. It's not that complicated. Trail ride, fer crying out loud!
      To the best of my knowledge Cordial has never condoned soring.

      She does, mistakenly IMO, believe that the process of "building up" a horse and maintaining it on pads/stacks is not harmful.

      Many people, myself included, believe that the process does produce long and short term injury. This is particularly true with young horses who can be in "colt packages" as early as 12 months of age.

      G.
      Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

      Comment


      • Very informative . Thank you. I will check them out when I travel to Kentucky.
        The Elephant in the room

        Comment


        • Originally posted by cordial View Post
          I never said that soring is okay....where did I ever say that! Quite putting words in my mouth, [edit]. I have said that riding a SOUND padded horse is a thrill. Go back and read the posts, and then I want an apology...[edit]!
          You think a horse on stacks is sound and happy and you are calling someone else [names]?
          Last edited by Moderator 1; Feb. 10, 2013, 03:39 PM. Reason: quote and response

          Comment


          • Mary..I haven't. This is no different than the Julie thread (Izanalter) here on COTH where you stated you were taking one of her horses and others were trying to raise money to ship it to you. You also stated you had "no pot to pee in"

            Someone else posted you shouldn't take the horse if you had no money and couldn't afford it...and then you AGAIN...changed your story and became defensive.

            On TROT you did state you had given up Saddlebreds as your Dad's lines did not win and you also made reference that NO ONE would breed to your stallion as they were old lines.

            Therefore you gelded him (THAT was what you claimed...I have no proof you did or did NOT do that)


            Chains alone, do NOT sore a horse..of any breed. Neither do rollers.

            Chains, Rollers WITH a caustic substance will accelerate the soring but it needs that substance.

            I will be happy to volunteer one of my Saddlebreds for any type of chain only test for soring. My horses go out into fields during the day and are in at night in stalls OR I also have 50 foot long paddocks by 20 feet wide with shelters for individual horses. I can not find any study that chains cause soring despite the urban legends presented. I have NO DOUBT they do cause soring when used inconjunction with a caustic product.
            The Elephant in the room

            Comment


            • I will not apologize. You can make the description 'cute' by calling it stacking, but the concept is still the same. Do you not use chains?

              In addition, I never called you any names. You are the one that should apologize.
              “Pray, hope, and don't worry.”

              St. Padre Pio

              Comment


              • So Fairfax, your Saddlebreds are living with chains on their legs. Just lovely.

                And before someone sends me a nastygram via PM again, I live in Saddlebred country and do NOT think that keeping chains on these horses 24/7 except for when they show, is not a form of abuse.
                ************************
                \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                  Mary..I haven't. This is no different than the Julie thread (Izanalter) here on COTH where you stated you were taking one of her horses and others were trying to raise money to ship it to you. You also stated you had "no pot to pee in"

                  Someone else posted you shouldn't take the horse if you had no money and couldn't afford it...and then you AGAIN...changed your story and became defensive.

                  On TROT you did state you had given up Saddlebreds as your Dad's lines did not win and you also made reference that NO ONE would breed to your stallion as they were old lines.

                  Therefore you gelded him (THAT was what you claimed...I have no proof you did or did NOT do that)


                  Chains alone, do NOT sore a horse..of any breed. Neither do rollers.

                  Chains, Rollers WITH a caustic substance will accelerate the soring but it needs that substance.

                  I will be happy to volunteer one of my Saddlebreds for any type of chain only test for soring. My horses go out into fields during the day and are in at night in stalls OR I also have 50 foot long paddocks by 20 feet wide with shelters for individual horses. I can not find any study that chains cause soring despite the urban legends presented. I have NO DOUBT they do cause soring when used inconjunction with a caustic product.
                  Jeez FF you are so out there. The Stallion I gelded was NOT my Dad's bloodlines. Harlem's Hot dice was his sire you may have heard of him. Broadlands Beau and Chairman of Board on the bottom. He was just as modern as all the ASB's out there. You either cannot read for comprehension or you are in the midst of dementia. My Dad's bloodlines were for ME no one else. What I did say is no one wants the old Stonewall King breeding anymore which is a crime in my eyes, which BTW is Kalu's sire line. Your mentors favorite cross on Charm. Jeez you don't even belong in my league for bloodline knowledge.

                  Erm... no I'm not rich. Being rich does not equal competent or resourceful or handy or really much of anything. If that is your criteria for horse ownership I'd wager a guess that 90% of owners should not own horses including yourself.

                  So just knock it off. You've shown me who you are and I do believe you. A unreliable bloviating nuisance that can't read.

                  Now back to TWH's.

                  Comment


                  • I wish your intense dislike and want to fight me on every thread would increase your reading and comprehension.

                    I stated IF SOME WANTED to use one of my saddlebreds for a study I would be pleased to do one here. NO WHERE does it state I have my horses in chains...I don't need to...they have amazing action.

                    Trainers will use chains or rollers in a controlled training environment to get the horses to lift, use muscles i.e. resistance training and to let them know WHERE their feet are

                    I also clean out shelters and put the manure and shavings in long lines like a pinwheel design. I let it freeze in the round bull pen and then I lunge the horses so they lift while going over..the longer the line from the center..the longer their stride with lift. This is great for them as they can also stomp on it...no damage to legs nor hoof.

                    Chains or rollers are ONLY a tool to assist the process. They will NOT make a poor flexing non moving horse suddenly become world champion gaited material.
                    The Elephant in the room

                    Comment


                    • Mary..you have done this to me for the last time...yeah..right...

                      Here you go:

                      On TROT...there was a thread on the high cost of hay. Many were saying they would have to sell their horses or cut back severly as they couldn't afford it.

                      You posted that you could no longer afford to keep your horses and you were going to sell them all

                      I sent you a very private pm stating I could help you a bit and if you would send me the name of your feed company and let me know if they took Visa or M/C I could help support them until the prices dropped.

                      You replied that was not necessary and you just got caught up in the thread. You had the money and feed to look after your horses.

                      THEN

                      Your post on the Izanalter update here on COTH


                      You know what? First of all I am so F***ING pissed off. Next. every. single. one of you are all great F***ING 'talk the walk'. Here's the deal folks. I'm just clawing my way out of devastating, nearly killed us both in ways no one could comprehend. We almost lost everything. I touched the edges of what IZ is going through, however she's going through it all ALONE. Not many/any people knew how close I was to euthing a few horses for fear of their life beyond here with me.

                      So I'm here calling all you 'better off than me" do gooders to buck up. I'm taking one her horses for safe keeping that the rest of his quality of life will allow. I barely got a pot to piss in, she trusts ME with one of her babies.

                      Here was from a "fellow poster" with 23 likes

                      Hope your sweary vent made you feel better.

                      Not everyone can afford to take on another horse, and certainly shouldn't put their financial situation in peril in order to do so. Is that what "walkin' the walk" is supposed to mean? Frankly rehoming with someone who "barely has a pot to piss in" doesn't sound like the greatest idea in the world for either the horse or the new owner.


                      AND YOUR response...
                      Believe me when I say, none of my horses or IZ's will leave my farm. They will be buried here. I have the means, the property, the experience and the integrity to make sure they NEVER end up in the pipeline. So no one needs to worry their pretty little heads about this coming back around. I'D bet my farm it would never happen.

                      You have knowledge regarding both pedigrees and conformation. I fail to see why you continually jump on every negative soring beating whipping etc thread and claim to have experienced it just in order to feel like you are part of a group.


                      Mary

                      I think you have so much more to offer and that instead of always tearing down, you could give encouragement and provide some solutions.

                      I previously stated MANY agree with you regarding the shoes on weanling futurity entries. That said...most go in with them freshly on and they are pulled immediately after. Right or Wrong...YOU have a right to your opinion and it was valid.
                      The Elephant in the room

                      Comment


                      • P.S. did you know Chairman of the Board was sold to Teon here in Alberta a few years ago. I don't think he produced before he passed away however. I was very familar with him. I have many other lines than Charm and Bubbling Midnight Madness. You might want to look up on DATA sometime to see what I have been breeding. I do remember I asked you to send me some of your horses pedigrees and never heard back from you.
                        The Elephant in the room

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          This is not a laundromat Fairfax. Take your dirty laundry elsewhere.
                          from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                            Mary..I haven't. This is no different than the Julie thread (Izanalter) here on COTH where you stated you were taking one of her horses and others were trying to raise money to ship it to you. You also stated you had "no pot to pee in"

                            Someone else posted you shouldn't take the horse if you had no money and couldn't afford it...and then you AGAIN...changed your story and became defensive.

                            On TROT you did state you had given up Saddlebreds as your Dad's lines did not win and you also made reference that NO ONE would breed to your stallion as they were old lines.

                            Therefore you gelded him (THAT was what you claimed...I have no proof you did or did NOT do that)


                            Chains alone, do NOT sore a horse..of any breed. Neither do rollers.

                            Chains, Rollers WITH a caustic substance will accelerate the soring but it needs that substance.

                            I will be happy to volunteer one of my Saddlebreds for any type of chain only test for soring. My horses go out into fields during the day and are in at night in stalls OR I also have 50 foot long paddocks by 20 feet wide with shelters for individual horses. I can not find any study that chains cause soring despite the urban legends presented. I have NO DOUBT they do cause soring when used inconjunction with a caustic product.
                            Ever gone jogging in the sand with chains on your bare ankles?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                              I wish your intense dislike and want to fight me on every thread would increase your reading and comprehension.

                              I stated IF SOME WANTED to use one of my saddlebreds for a study I would be pleased to do one here. NO WHERE does it state I have my horses in chains...I don't need to...they have amazing action.

                              Trainers will use chains or rollers in a controlled training environment to get the horses to lift, use muscles i.e. resistance training and to let them know WHERE their feet are

                              I also clean out shelters and put the manure and shavings in long lines like a pinwheel design. I let it freeze in the round bull pen and then I lunge the horses so they lift while going over..the longer the line from the center..the longer their stride with lift. This is great for them as they can also stomp on it...no damage to legs nor hoof.

                              Chains or rollers are ONLY a tool to assist the process. They will NOT make a poor flexing non moving horse suddenly become world champion gaited material.
                              "and to let them know WHERE their feet are"
                              How kind of you to support putting chains on horses, otherwise they would go through life not knowing where their feet are. Heck, they couldn't even walk out of the stall if they didn't know where their feet are. It's wonderful there are do gooders like you to make sure horses know where their feet are. You support abuse. That's all I need to know about you.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
                                This is not a laundromat Fairfax. Take your dirty laundry elsewhere.
                                Thank you.

                                Comment


                                • WTH is up with the double posts.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                    With all of the claims and counter claims against Country divisions in flat show TWH's I would be concerned that show secretaries will just drop all TWH classes. I believe that would be a shame. I am not sure what the solution will be.
                                    I don't see why it's difficult to see the solution. Stop soring, period. The HIOs/Show managers/judges need to adopt a no tolerance policy like NWHA, IWHA and FOSH have. If the horse looks sore, he can't show. Stop rewarding the horses crawling over the rail and the stepping pace. Stop rewarding the horses that are marching behind. Stop letting HPA violators back in the ring and not policing them when they're on suspension. Three strikes and you're out should do it. And get rid of the pads and chains yourselves, or at least go to a smaller package with no action devices. The solution is right there. The Industry just refuses to accept it.
                                    Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                                    www.forthetwh.com

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                      okay....please enlighten me. In Arizona the best they can muster is a couple of entries for the TWH division...
                                      Being from Arizona...ALLOW ME TO RETORT.

                                      We used to have spectators walk out of the shows that had BL horses in them. They didn't even know about soring and thought it looked so grotesque they just left. We chased the BL off for several reasons: first, because of the soring (and the trainers who came here are WELL KNOWN for how the "train" their horses) and because of all the complaints from other exhibitors about the rude trainers and riders. This was in 2005, long before McConnell's tape. There were hardly ever any BL horses showing anyway--only one or two per class. Now our classes are anywhere from 7-12 in a class since the BL is gone and we've attracted the sound California folks. The show is NWHA affiliated and everyone enjoys it. So believe me, THE BIG LICK DOES NOT BRING IN THE SPECTATORS OUT HERE. NO ONE likes it, see it as ugly and cripping, and it is considered abusive, whether or not they know about soring. The BL image has ruined the TWH show horse out here in Arizona. It's pretty much mostly the rednecks in TN and KY that love their crippled horse in the ring.

                                      The lack of Arizona horses in the ring has nothing to do with the quality of horses in Arizona. It has to do with the fact that Arizona is a TRAIL RIDING state, and people don't want to show. There is no "mustering up" to be done. There are many TWHs out here that are the duds you guys send out from Tennessee. They are so scarred both mentally and physically that they have to be completely retained. I know--I've had to retrain A LOT of them. These are animals who will rear if you try to touch their front feet and are terrified of a long shanked bit. I have one friend who if you touch his feet too much, he will "go somewhere else"...his eyes go blank and he literally checks out, the abuse was so bad for him. You guys ruined them, now you're hiding the ruined ones by sending them out West. Finding a quality TWH in Arizona is near impossible.

                                      And since the breed is now being bred to pace and step pace, they are no longer comfortable to ride. Plus they're so poorly trained that they can't be "controlled." All they know is how to go fast fast fast, and you can't stop them. So Arizona people are going for other gaited breeds, such as MFTs and RMHs. I'm seeing a small but very steady rise of Icelandics out here. The TWH is becoming less and less popular out here.

                                      But overall, in Arizona, people just aren't interested in showing. I know--I've been involved in the TWH horse community in Arizona for 14 years. I tried to run shows and get people to volunteer...they just don't care. Showing is extremely expensive out here--we don't have the hundreds of backyard shows people MUST have back in Tennessee where there's no arena costs. Plus it's time consuming, and the majority of our gaited horse population is baby boomers whose kids have left the nest and now they get to own a horse. They just want to relax on the trail. It has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with desire.

                                      The show horses out here are QHs, Arabs, and Saddle seat (ASBs, NSHs, Morabs). And those numbers are falling as well in the middle class because it's so damn expensive to show out here. When you want to go in just one class at a show and with all the fees it adds up to over $100 for just one class...people just aren't doing it.

                                      So please, spend some time in some of the other states first before you put a label on them. We'd appreciate it.
                                      Last edited by FortheTWH; Feb. 10, 2013, 02:49 AM. Reason: technical edits
                                      Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                                      www.forthetwh.com

                                      Comment


                                      • So, since we are talking some about quality of gait, it is true that TRUE WALKING Walking Horses are out there. Here are some of my favorite horses. If I had a breeding program, I would make sure to find mares that matched all five of these stallions.

                                        Papa's Royal Delight And he does all of this barefoot. He also does it bridleless in some of her videos.

                                        The Eternal Flame I LOVE this stallion. His personality is wonderful. They come to AZ to our show every year and I go to their clinics. I haven't ridden him yet--just haven't had the chance.

                                        Hardcastle's Prime Sun I love him because he's quite frankly the ONLY spotted TWH stallion I've seen that has a true RW in just a keg shoe.

                                        All Around Midnight Unfortunately no videos of him yet, but MAN, he can move. He's also dressage trained. Here's a video of his owners riding at the WEGs. I think Banner's Dixie Belle is All Around Midnight's dam.

                                        Excalibur's Dark Knight. Just found out about this guy. The trainer/rider is the president of NWHA.

                                        Not exciting? I think not. These horses are that much MORE exciting because they're not man made and move naturally. They are clearly happy and sound.

                                        I think one of my favorite things is that people think the TWH breed will go extinct if the BL goes away...I guess that means these wonderful stallions will just *poof* disappear off the planet if the BL is gone. Oh well...
                                        Last edited by FortheTWH; Feb. 10, 2013, 02:18 AM. Reason: added last paragraphs
                                        Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                                        www.forthetwh.com

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                          Chains alone, do NOT sore a horse..of any breed. Neither do rollers...I can not find any study that chains cause soring despite the urban legends presented.
                                          The Auburn Study (linked here) states that using chains heavier than 6 ozs without chemicals absolutely DO cause pain to a horse's pasterns, including rubbing and hair loss. And even 6 oz chains can cause bruising if used for long periods of time. You might want to work some more on doing research.
                                          Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                                          www.forthetwh.com

                                          Comment

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