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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • I think sunridge1's comments kept the proposal on the table and the conversation going. I sure did not take them as directed at you. Sunridge1's comments had me thinking all morning about how fun in hand classes with the flagging assistants were - some had crazy bad timing with their flags.

    For sure the horses can be trained to do it - I just do not know about the riders. Some of the TWH riders could easily lead their horse at speed for inspection - some... not so much. And that may be a way to get some of us in shape or at least get our knees replaced. LOL

    And then there would be all the criteria to consider of what is at speed? What is sound? I know for gaiters many a vet will proclaim them neurologic cause they do not understand the soft gaits nor what would be considered pathologic in a soft gaited horse. It really could be a grand tool if given the time to develop it. Heck - it might make DQP a sort of additional class to watch. Lots to think about there. LIke perhaps passing such a "Test" could be used as a requisite for grand championship entries. Or maybe points on an All Round competition.

    A horse moving free in hand will tell you a lot about its natural movement and training.

    BTW way cool to watch a TWH stay in a running walk in hand. Crazy cool to hear as well!

    Just a thought though - and something to consider to use to weed out or bring up the quality of a competition and the inspection standards.

    And I want to say I vehemently disagree that folks need to walk lock step with each other on either side of this coin. Discussion may feel a little personal to some at times - but hey! Such is life. And when do you find entire groups in total agreement? Cults maybe. I do not think a cult or even a military rank and file approach is a requisite here.

    IMO the issue only fell to the wayside because of lack of attention from professional horseman groups. THAT made the difference. THAT lack of attention watered down the original law, permitted the stacking and chaining and heavy shoeing extremes and permitted the MCConnell's to perpetuate.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

    Comment


    • The internet is the "new wrinkle" in this battle. Before, the only way people knew about the big lick was if they went to a show, even a picture doesn't show how badly these horses are forced to move. Now that videos are everywhere and people are posting them on non-gaited forums (i.e. the dressage forum here), hopefully there will be more pressure from the horse world in general to stop the big lick (stacks, etc.) and soring in general, and the pressure will continue, not just die down after awhile.

      I completely understand your skepticism, you've seen this happen several times now. Hopefully, the internet can change it.

      Originally posted by Guilherme View Post

      If there is a new "wrinkle" it's the McConnell video. But that's gone from the public eye. The public memory is quite short. It remains to be seen if that will induce new Federal regulation.

      While the padded show system is crippled for this year, what about next? And then there's the entire issue of the flat and light shod horses.
      G.
      In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

      Comment


      • G, I asked what I thought was a simple question. I used to show ASB's in hand. Yes often the best "handler" usually wins. There ARE tricks to have a better showing.

        Being on the end of lead of a hopped up ASB does require some athleticism, at the very least to stay out the horses way.

        What I don't understand is why it couldn't be done with TWH's? We are talking flat shod here, since they ARE going to do away with BL. Hire a handler or two to lead every horse, use a tailer....etc.

        You haven't given me a satisfactory answer as to WHY it wouldn't work. You've been either deliberately vague or .....I don't know.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
          Sacasm amy serve in your world but in mine it doesn't.

          A proposal was made, questions were raised, and snotty non-answers given in response. Sadly, this is one of the reasons the problems continue. Cordial and their allies are not stupid. They know, from 50 years experience, that anti-soring folks like to "eat their own young." If they just keep their heads down and speak sweet words the anti-forces will implode as the zealots screaming "crucufy them" drive the sane and sensible from the issue. I've personally watched this happen three times in 25 years. I've studied the 25+ years before that and seen the same pattern.

          If there is a new "wrinkle" it's the McConnell video. But that's gone from the public eye. The public memory is quite short. It remains to be seen if that will induce new Federal regulation.

          While the padded show system is crippled for this year, what about next? And then there's the entire issue of the flat and light shod horses.

          I'm not your enemey. I'm not, or ought not to be, the center of your inquirey. You have other problems. Spend some time on them.

          G.

          Exactly. I gave an explicit example of a sad scene that I personally witnessed (not something I read on the interwebz) and I'm told I don't know what I'm talking about Um, ok. . Like you, I'm not the problem.

          The harpies are busy harping and fighting for supreme Anti Soring Sister, like that role matters. But it must matter to some, because that is most of what this thread has been for the last 30 pages.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
            G, I asked what I thought was a simple question. I used to show ASB's in hand. Yes often the best "handler" usually wins. There ARE tricks to have a better showing.

            Being on the end of lead of a hopped up ASB does require some athleticism, at the very least to stay out the horses way.

            What I don't understand is why it couldn't be done with TWH's? We are talking flat shod here, since they ARE going to do away with BL. Hire a handler or two to lead every horse, use a tailer....etc.

            You haven't given me a satisfactory answer as to WHY it wouldn't work. You've been either deliberately vague or .....I don't know.
            There are multiple reasons why it won't work.

            The major one ithe HPA. The HPA outlaws soring, not lameness in the show ring. All sored horses are lame, but not all lame horses are sored. Horses that a bilaterally, equally sored will not show lame on being trotted. If two exhibitors presented horses for inspection, one being sored and the other suffering from bi-lateral, front abscesses both would like show the same way. Both might be detected by the DQP. Neither should be in the show ring. But only one violates the HPA. The DQP is not a vet and making a distinction could constitute the practice of veterinary medicine without a license. To ticket both because they can't distinguish would be a serious Constitutional issue. In short, you're vastly increasing complexity and not getting much in return. In any event the suggestion fails ab intio because it's not authorized. If it were authorzied it wouldn't work.

            The "endurance" precident is not relevant because vets are the persons doing the assessment at an endurance race. I suspect they'll have one or more assistants, but the VET does the call. A DQP is NOT a vet. They are trained in one, narrow vet proceedure (foot palpation) for one, narrow purpose (identifying horses that are "sore" under the HPA).

            A "trotting out" procedure would also require time, space, and at least one assistant (to trot the horse while the DQP watches). This would be a significant burden on show management in both costs and time. While the zealots might "poo-poo" this objection I wonder what the folks over at FOSH or NWHA might think. They put on shows and know what it takes to actually make a show run. Why don't you ask them about your suggestion?

            G.
            Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

            Comment


            • Originally posted by katarine View Post
              Exactly. I gave an explicit example of a sad scene that I personally witnessed (not something I read on the interwebz) and I'm told I don't know what I'm talking about Um, ok. . Like you, I'm not the problem.

              The harpies are busy harping and fighting for supreme Anti Soring Sister, like that role matters. But it must matter to some, because that is most of what this thread has been for the last 30 pages.
              I don't know why you think everybody doesnt believe you about the flat shod horse being sored, I know I believe it, but that doesn't mean I feel the BL should stay just because flatshod horses are being sored, Better crackdowns on soring for all divisions are needed.

              I don't think any of the attitudes that seems to be suddenly prevelant on the thread are helping, G is right, we need to work together on this, not be argumentative about everything! I think we have a goal that's in common. Help to STOP SORING (or lessen it as much as possible) And support the reintroduction of h.r.6388!
              Please support S. 1406 to amend the Horse Protection Act and Prevent all Soring Tactics to the Tennessee Walking horse!
              https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/113/s1406

              Comment


              • Guilherme, please understand that I am not arguing herein, just trying to wrap my brain around a very different discipline from what I'm used to.

                What if a soundness trot up before a veterinarian and some judges was only conducted at a certain level (championships, let's say)?

                Also, from the perspective of my small sport, why can't a horse be referred to the assessment panel, DQP or show vet (don't most big shows have a vet on call for emergencies?) by any official who notices something that might be lameness? It shouldn't have to be federal law to try to protect any horse showing from doing so lame.

                Again, I come from a fragment of equine sport where any judge (dressage or jumping) or member of the ground jury has the responsibility to pull any horse that appears lame, shows blood anywhere including the mouth and have it checked over. Sometimes it's nothing (horse can be "rein lame" or just stung itself) and sometimes it results in the horse being spun from the competition. I'm so provincial that I assumed this was true for all major horse competitions.

                I'm not getting into the "evenly uneven" lamenesses here. Just asking if a frankly lame horse would be permitted to compete.

                Oh, and would you please tell me what DQP stands for?
                They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

                Comment


                • Okay G most of that makes sense but then why do they walk them around cones? What is that supposed to show if you can't gauge lameness or soreness?

                  And IMO the footage that I've seen of them doing just that at a walk DOES show to me that they are sore/hurt/lame. If any one of my horses looked like that going around a cone at a walk, the next walk would be on a trailer to go to the U of M.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Thoro View Post
                    I don't know why you think everybody doesnt believe you about the flat shod horse being sored, I know I believe it, but that doesn't mean I feel the BL should stay just because flatshod horses are being sored, Better crackdowns on soring for all divisions are needed.

                    I don't think any of the attitudes that seems to be suddenly prevelant on the thread are helping, G is right, we need to work together on this, not be argumentative about everything! I think we have a goal that's in common. Help to STOP SORING (or lessen it as much as possible) And support the reintroduction of h.r.6388!
                    I never wrote 'everybody.' What caused me to once again throw my hands up in the air and walk away from this (the latest in a string of) pack of 'gottaberights', was this little treasure from Hurleycane, who for some unfathomable reason is unwilling or so invested as to be unable to let anyone else (outside of about 3 others people and the Blessed Roy) have anything of merit to say:


                    Katarine - You indicated first hand knowledge of a sored horse. Was he exhibiting this behavior at home or at the show? Did he flinch at the DQP? Stumble with the DQP?? Did he in any way fail the test other that act sullied up as you said? My guess is by he sucked you mean he did not pick up his front feet? Was he actually sored at the time of the show?



                    Now go re-read what was written by me. Complete with dates, frames of reference, etc. Where I was, when it was, etc etc etc. But no, it's faster and easier to blow through it and past it.

                    I am ON the right side of all this. The fact that I am NOT in lock step agreement or see things exactly as SOME see it, means I must be ridiculed, talked down to, questioned????? with multiple ???? marks just to make it absolutely clear just how much I'm being questioned.

                    Forget it. Nothing that happens on this BB will make a damn bit of difference. BTDT like G said, there is nothing new under the sun. Particularly with the TWH.

                    I'm going to go ride my gaited horse, the failed BL horse, the one whose brain I reinstalled, the one who's gone on to be a hell of an ambassador for the breed, and work on the other one who also needs mental help. Life's too short to worry about some internet zealot who feels they must win an argument. For God's sake, the horses need to win. Not the queens of the internet. I'm done trying to insert some experience, some logic, and some actual eyes on the ground suggestions. Peace out and good luck.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                      That a horse was obviously sored and passed is sad and there may not be a way to stop the incompetence that let that happen. Well other than for folks like you and those show officials to speak up. In fact - if it was recent I hope that is exactly what you will do.

                      Hopefully, the quality of DQP inspection has improved since then (when ever it was that you witnessed it). If not - well the ball is in your court on that.

                      But again you repeat the mantra "don't think that eliminating pads will eliminate soring"

                      No one - NO ONE and I mean no one but maybe you and guilherme is saying that.

                      It never crossed my lips for sure.

                      And no way is anyone going to buy your line: those that are willing to sore- will just apply that much more pressure on those horses any way they can, to make it work You present it as a valid reason to permit stacks and chains? Really??

                      Irrational.
                      You have a knack for putting words in other's mouths, you have to, because you consistently fail to read and process what was written.

                      In light of that, I crown you Queen of the Interwebz. Keep it up, and you'll be talking to an empty room.


                      You win, you're wrong, but you win.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        Originally posted by katarine View Post
                        Exactly. I gave an explicit example of a sad scene that I personally witnessed (not something I read on the interwebz) and I'm told I don't know what I'm talking about Um, ok. . Like you, I'm not the problem.
                        A few posts back i had asked why a flat or light shod horse would be wrapped and sored. I asked this because the Barney Davis stated in his video that that if there were no pads and chains, there would be no reason to sore a horse topically. I was just going by what he said. Yet you saw a flat or liteshod horse wrapped up and in misery. I was wondering what was going on. You later said that this was a few hours before the class. I am just wondering what was on under those wraps causing so much pain that a few hours later the horse made it through inspection. The inference that something was on those legs, and the pain was not just due to pressure shoeing. I was not questioning what you observed, just confused. I see it all over the internet that there is as much problem with the lite and flat shod horses. We have been inundated with the "how" soring is done to the BL horses, but little details on the dirty doings of the the less flamboyant disciplines.
                        The harpies are busy harping and fighting for supreme Anti Soring Sister, like that role matters. But it must matter to some, because that is most of what this thread has been for the last 30 pages.
                        Sorry you feel that way about this thread. It can only be as good as those who step forward to contribute. (And you have been one of them)! And thanks for your input. Keeping the issue alive is the main reason for this thread.
                        .
                        from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                        Comment


                        • double

                          Comment


                          • When did this thread become so contentious? Maybe I am skimming posts but from the outside I cannot see why people are fighting here. Jeez I justed asked a sincere simple question, it wasn't a trick. I asked because I DON'T KNOW, I live in Northern WI for heavens sake. I haven't seen a Big Lick or even a LITE shod TWH show for 30 years. Natural/Versatility horses? yes and I've even done catch rides for someone.

                            I really don't understand why I was met with hostility, and condemnation. I'm for the horse! I've owned TWH's/SSH's and other members of my family have had gaited breeds for 40 some years. Again I'm for the horse and making life better for them. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

                            Comment


                            • Oh and one other thing, the heart of the problem here is these people cannot see what they are doing. I am very familiar with this disease. I live in the land of it, kill me now. It's not BL but the symptoms are exactly the same. There is NOTHING, that will ever their minds. They will die believing they loved their horses and never harmed them. I swear they have a rule book. They aren't wired for empathy and compassion. Maybe they are sociopathic I don't know....But they are self-righteous about things that are obviously beyond the pale. There is not a cure.

                              There are some like me that went into the horse show world, eyes wide open making my OWN judgements. I backed away slowly. We are the anomaly. Most people will regurgitate everything a they have been told without really seeing it. Either they lie and convince themselves it's okay, don't really look at it, or simply don't care. No wants to admit they're wrong. It's a disease or a mental illness, equally bad with no treatment.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
                                Guilherme, please understand that I am not arguing herein, just trying to wrap my brain around a very different discipline from what I'm used to.

                                What if a soundness trot up before a veterinarian and some judges was only conducted at a certain level (championships, let's say)?

                                Also, from the perspective of my small sport, why can't a horse be referred to the assessment panel, DQP or show vet (don't most big shows have a vet on call for emergencies?) by any official who notices something that might be lameness? It shouldn't have to be federal law to try to protect any horse showing from doing so lame.

                                Again, I come from a fragment of equine sport where any judge (dressage or jumping) or member of the ground jury has the responsibility to pull any horse that appears lame, shows blood anywhere including the mouth and have it checked over. Sometimes it's nothing (horse can be "rein lame" or just stung itself) and sometimes it results in the horse being spun from the competition. I'm so provincial that I assumed this was true for all major horse competitions.

                                I'm not getting into the "evenly uneven" lamenesses here. Just asking if a frankly lame horse would be permitted to compete.

                                Oh, and would you please tell me what DQP stands for?
                                DQP means "Designated Qualified Person." They are laymen trained under a USDA approved program to conduct inspections under the HPA. The HPA also decrees, through Regulations published by the USDA, how inspections are to done. The rules are that all horses are inspected prior to exhibition and the top two are inspected afterwards. This is why a "trotting out" program would be highly problematical.

                                In a perfect world DQPs would be unnecessary because judges would not reward extreme motion and would excuse cheaters. But the world is not perfect; so we need "outsiders" to do part of the judge's job for them.

                                Just how bad can it be? Some years back I was scribing at a FOSH show. A member of the FOSH board of directors was the Show Manager. The judge (now deceased) was a Name in the sound horse/natural horse world.

                                Another Name in the sound trainer world was campaigning a three year old TWH gelding. This horse was not sored, but was three legged lame. It was so bad that the rider was whipping the horse, vigorously, to get the canter. At one point the judge asked me what I thought about the horse and I said, "dead lame." He nodded and then told me to call the Show Manager as ask them if the horse should be examined by the show vet (who was on the grounds). My first reaction was to say, "You're the judge; why do you need the Show Manager's input?" I mean, if the judge was asking me for a "second opinion" and now looking for third I would think that they had already made a call. I held my tongue and called the Show Manager. They said no vet exam was necessary, it was no more than a Grade 1 lamness. Aside from the issues of "practicing without a license" I wonder just what horse they were watching. It certainly wasn't what the judge and I were seeing (like 3-4). I communicated this to the judge. He shrugged his shoulders, gave the horse a blue ribbon, and the show went on. That gelding was shown in three more classes and got three more blue ribbons.

                                At the time I was no "virgin" when it came to TWH shows. To be fair, neither was I a "regular." I'd seen this story play out at virtually every NHSC show I'd attended (which is one reason I wasn't a regular; watching systematized animal cruelty is not my thing). That it happened at a FOSH show was deeply troubling for me.

                                A professional, effective system of inspection is essential if the goals of the HPA are to be reached. No system is perfect and inspectors will always be one step behind innovative cheaters. That's just life.

                                G.
                                Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                                  When did this thread become so contentious? Maybe I am skimming posts but from the outside I cannot see why people are fighting here. Jeez I justed asked a sincere simple question, it wasn't a trick. I asked because I DON'T KNOW, I live in Northern WI for heavens sake. I haven't seen a Big Lick or even a LITE shod TWH show for 30 years. Natural/Versatility horses? yes and I've even done catch rides for someone.

                                  I really don't understand why I was met with hostility, and condemnation. I'm for the horse! I've owned TWH's/SSH's and other members of my family have had gaited breeds for 40 some years. Again I'm for the horse and making life better for them. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.
                                  I had no issue with you. I was -and am- disgusted at the contempt and grilling that Hurley felt they just had to put out there and I said screw it. The tone and tenor and blatant well, you just don't know what you're talking about- screw it. I have horses to ride and spreadsheets to conquer on a Saturday.

                                  You'll have to find someone more interested in being summarily disrespected than I am.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by katarine View Post
                                    I had no issue with you. I was -and am- disgusted at the contempt and grilling that Hurley felt they just had to put out there and I said screw it. The tone and tenor and blatant well, you just don't know what you're talking about- screw it. I have horses to ride and spreadsheets to conquer on a Saturday.

                                    You'll have to find someone more interested in being summarily disrespected than I am.
                                    I wish you luck with your walkers.
                                    and, if you do ever want to put input on this thread you could use the ignore thing, just saying...
                                    Please support S. 1406 to amend the Horse Protection Act and Prevent all Soring Tactics to the Tennessee Walking horse!
                                    https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/113/s1406

                                    Comment


                                    • OMGiH. It apparently does take federal regulation to protect frankly lame horses!

                                      Guilherme, I'm wordless having read your story. And appalled.
                                      They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                                      Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        A lot of issues can be dealt with using private messages and not dragging all the readers through the turmoil of battling egos and name calling. Dayam. If you dont agree with a post or poster, spell it out in such a way that we can understand your viewpoint if you are trying to make a point OR take it private please. Ive said some dumb stuff and been called on it and as a result of more discussion had an AHA moment. Hard to have that AHA moment if you're being labeled or called names.

                                        ***Disclaimer*** We are the good guys, battling BL. Name calling of Lickers not prohibited.
                                        from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                                        Comment


                                        • Sorry bout the drama Katarine. ANd surprised by it franklly. Mostly know every post I write is not being directed at you in any way. SPecially the lock step comment. You are all wadded up for no good reason girl.
                                          from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                          Comment

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