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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Lordy.

    OK as Preacher would say - lets break it down.

    For one - I read that Guilherme having been DQP trained at one time (BTW when was that? ) is conveying that there are a bunch of sored flat shod horses that are getting away with it cause people are focusing on stacked and chained horses. Am I understanding you?

    But tell me this - all shown horses in TWH SSH and Racking land are subjected to DQP, right?

    Are you implying that soring is going on on every Racking, TWH, and SSH horse - even if passing DQP???

    DO you realize what you are implying? Do you think there is no gaited horse of these breeds that is an honest high stepping smooth moving son of a gun???

    That is how it reads. Kinda reminiscent of your previous mantra that HPA is for all horses.

    So question - Do Mangalara Marchadors have to go through DQP? Are they all sored?

    I bring it up cause you seem to give no credit to the TWH SSH Racking horses natural abilities at all - specially when you imply there is rampant soring in flat shod land. Tell that to the folks at NWHA.

    Katarine - You indicated first hand knowledge of a sored horse. Was he exhibiting this behavior at home or at the show? Did he flinch at the DQP? Stumble with the DQP?? Did he in any way fail the test other that act sullied up as you said? My guess is by he sucked you mean he did not pick up his front feet? Was he actually sored at the time of the show?


    I just gotta repeat that these recurrent statements of "they sore flat shod horses" are wearing thin. Of course they might - and it is why there is a DQP. So pulease understand it is NO and I mean NO SURPRISE or 'blow up a kilt' that the potential to sore any horse - even a barefoot horse is there. Heck they road sore the paso finos! And the mountain horses!!! It is a plague of the gaited show industry!


    But to infer that advocates are only focused on the stacked horse is way crazy. They check em all! So this constant inference of oversight is tiresome, and contra to the effort to remove action devices which are indeed used to enhance soring for the sored horse. NO DOUBT ABOUT that.

    Again - a simple soring use of the light chain action device = A horse limps when it is sore. When it no longer is sore, it no longer limps. Same for the founder crawl of the sored horse.
    So if a horse is not sore at the time of the show, the soring will have no benefit. UNLESS a horse is "sored" and conditioned to raise a foot really high r/t the pain of the chain. Then he may do the foot raise with just the chain.

    And then we have the stewarding - I know - so the horse will not flinch to palpation.

    But please tell us all how a "sored" horse can be "sore" and not DQP test as sore? And what sored horse is bright eyed and bushy tailed? I am telling you they well be sullied up as Kataine described for sure if sore at the time of the show.

    So break it down. Parse out your rationale for me please how this atrocity of a bunch of sored flat shod horses is getting in the show ring time and time again cause folks are focused on stacked horses? Which by the way we are not - action devices are more than just the stacked horse.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

    Comment


    • He was marinating under those wraps. He didn't want to move and when he did he didn't want to put the fores back down. This was a few hours before he showed. You do the math, counselor.

      He was inspected and he passed inspection. I don't know what he did other than he passed. And he was sored all to Hell while he passed.

      Listen, the owner acknowledged that he was sored (that's what 'fixed' means in their language, it's not like "I got my dog fixed". He was a gelding when he got there, 'mk?) and my eyes could see it. I quit watching. I suppose once unwrapped and spurred into her hand he went on and moved out. But you could SEE he was in trouble, man made trouble. I'm not sure what you are struggling to comprehend. Google "Barney Davis TWH".

      Hurl, if you've seen FortheTWH's favorite pic on her site, the one of the black padded horse all wadded up...then you've seen what I'm describing. Only a fool would think that image describes a sound horse. I don't have to break it down further. I know the truth.

      I have shown shown flat shod horses, I know of many, many, many sound lite shod or flat shod horses. The hard part is identifying them in the DQP process. And don't think for one hot minute that eliminating pads will eliminate soring. They - those that are willing to sore- will just apply that much more pressure on those horses any way they can, to make it work.

      You don't have to like it. I hate it. But I know it's true.

      Comment


      • That a horse was obviously sored and passed is sad and there may not be a way to stop the incompetence that let that happen. Well other than for folks like you and those show officials to speak up. In fact - if it was recent I hope that is exactly what you will do.

        Hopefully, the quality of DQP inspection has improved since then (when ever it was that you witnessed it). If not - well the ball is in your court on that.

        But again you repeat the mantra "don't think that eliminating pads will eliminate soring"

        No one - NO ONE and I mean no one but maybe you and guilherme is saying that.

        It never crossed my lips for sure.

        And no way is anyone going to buy your line: those that are willing to sore- will just apply that much more pressure on those horses any way they can, to make it work You present it as a valid reason to permit stacks and chains? Really??

        Irrational.
        from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          Im kind of confused. I had assumed that the "soring" of the lite and flat shod horses was done through pressure shoeing, not applying topical irritants. Guess i was wrong. I do know that a horse with sore heels from say scratches will jerk its leg up because it hurts when that tender area gets wrinkled as the pastern flexes and scrunches the skin together. What exactly is going on under those wraps ? Are they targeting the heel and pastern area ? How is the soring accomplished if there is no chain to bang around on tender skin ? I can see where sore stinging feet could make them pick em up, but how does soring the skin alter the gait without the action devices ?
          from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

          Comment


          • That last sentence means a lot and speaks to the issue of HR6388 (to me anyway). If they are sored (chemicals cooked into the flesh, pressure foundered/bruised etc) the sorness affects the gait. If the horse is not sore at the time of show - the past soreing will not affect gait.

            Light and flat shod as well as bare foot horses can be sored up front - (any fashion of soring) and it will cause the gaited horse to take the weight on the back end when forced to move. He will gait and not bounce the gait (pace/trot) cause it hurts like heck.

            Somewhere in this thread I mentioned witnessing a "trainer" on a young bay TWH warming up for a show. The bay was picking up one foot higher than the other. The trainer got off the horse and kicked the low going foot on the coronet band several times with his pointy toed boots. He then got back on the bay and the horse picked up both fronts equally - cause he was equally "sored".

            SO soring can be done in just about any fashion on a gaited horse. No way will they trot or pace if adequately sored on the fronts.

            MOF that might be a good way for checking soring - have a trot out (pace out). Will sort them out better than the walking the cones (one current DQP test)
            from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

            Comment


            • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
              Lordy.

              OK as Preacher would say - lets break it down.

              For one - I read that Guilherme having been DQP trained at one time (BTW when was that? ) is conveying that there are a bunch of sored flat shod horses that are getting away with it cause people are focusing on stacked and chained horses. Am I understanding you?

              The DQP training was 1998. I'm telling you that flat and light shod horses are sored up at least as much as the padded horses. Right now everybody is fixated on the padded horses; the others are getting caught but probably at a lower rate.

              But tell me this - all shown horses in TWH SSH and Racking land are subjected to DQP, right?

              If that's what the HPA says.

              Are you implying that soring is going on on every Racking, TWH, and SSH horse - even if passing DQP???

              Not every drunk driver gets caught; not every sored horse gets ticketed.

              DO you realize what you are implying? Do you think there is no gaited horse of these breeds that is an honest high stepping smooth moving son of a gun???

              Please read for comprehension. I've said that soring among the light/flat shod horses is common. Neither more nor less. I imply nothing; I only make a statement.

              That is how it reads. Kinda reminiscent of your previous mantra that HPA is for all horses.

              You're reading what you want to read; read the HPA, too. But READ it.

              So question - Do Mangalara Marchadors have to go through DQP? Are they all sored?

              I've been advised by show managers that if we have a Machador Only class then no DQP inspection is required. If we enter an open gaited class then DQP inspection is required. I've never seen a sored up MM and I've seen almost 75% of all the horses in the U.S. At the shows I attended in Brazil soring is a non-issue because the judging standards do not overly reward a particular way of going.

              I bring it up cause you seem to give no credit to the TWH SSH Racking horses natural abilities at all - specially when you imply there is rampant soring in flat shod land. Tell that to the folks at NWHA.

              I'm not in the "credit giving" business. I doubt i need to instruct the NWHA on their business, either.

              Katarine - You indicated first hand knowledge of a sored horse. Was he exhibiting this behavior at home or at the show? Did he flinch at the DQP? Stumble with the DQP?? Did he in any way fail the test other that act sullied up as you said? My guess is by he sucked you mean he did not pick up his front feet? Was he actually sored at the time of the show?


              I just gotta repeat that these recurrent statements of "they sore flat shod horses" are wearing thin. Of course they might - and it is why there is a DQP. So pulease understand it is NO and I mean NO SURPRISE or 'blow up a kilt' that the potential to sore any horse - even a barefoot horse is there. Heck they road sore the paso finos! And the mountain horses!!! It is a plague of the gaited show industry!


              But to infer that advocates are only focused on the stacked horse is way crazy. They check em all! So this constant inference of oversight is tiresome, and contra to the effort to remove action devices which are indeed used to enhance soring for the sored horse. NO DOUBT ABOUT that.

              Again - a simple soring use of the light chain action device = A horse limps when it is sore. When it no longer is sore, it no longer limps. Same for the founder crawl of the sored horse.
              So if a horse is not sore at the time of the show, the soring will have no benefit. UNLESS a horse is "sored" and conditioned to raise a foot really high r/t the pain of the chain. Then he may do the foot raise with just the chain.

              And then we have the stewarding - I know - so the horse will not flinch to palpation.

              But please tell us all how a "sored" horse can be "sore" and not DQP test as sore? And what sored horse is bright eyed and bushy tailed? I am telling you they well be sullied up as Kataine described for sure if sore at the time of the show.

              So break it down. Parse out your rationale for me please how this atrocity of a bunch of sored flat shod horses is getting in the show ring time and time again cause folks are focused on stacked horses? Which by the way we are not - action devices are more than just the stacked horse.
              You can train a horse to jump through a hoop of fire. The Army trained them to run straight at cannon and people shooting at them. Baucher taught them to canter backwards. Do you think it's a big trick to teach them not to react to a specific type of pain?

              Not all DQPs are created equal. Even the most honest and consciencious can miss a sign twords the end of day then then it's hot and they've conducted several hundred inspections.

              There's also an element of judgement in doing an inspection. If you palpate once and get a reaction most will try again to "confirm" that you got a real reaction and not just a random movment. Remember that if somebody challenges a ticket you'll have to swear under oath about what you saw. That's a substantial burden. So if you get a reaction, retry and don't get one, then what do you do? Being thorough, you try a third time and get no reaction. You observe no stewarding. You see no other evidence of pain on palpation. The horse passes. Maybe it was sore and maybe it wasn't. But if you don't have evidence of sorenesss then the horse passes.

              DQPs and VMOs are humans. The good, honest ones will tell you that they always do the best they can but the initiative rests with the Bad Guys. If they come up with a way to "beat the system" then the system will take some time to catch up. That's just the way it is in law enforcement at any level.

              G.
              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

              Comment


              • Seems you have no first hand knowledge of rampant flat shod soring - you just seem sure it is happening and will soon be revealed. Simply your bias. Your assumption.

                Sure there are always drunk drivers, and cheaters - always will be. But it does not mean everyone is doing it. Otherwise there would be no one to pay the taxes for law enforcement pay checks.

                Need tuffer penalties. And a few more squealers.
                from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                Comment


                • JUst want to add again - we need a "trot out or a pace out" as part of a DQP exam. Currently they just mosey around cones. Get them up into suspension and soring will show.

                  And it might keep the "off" ones out of the ring.

                  Not a bad idea.
                  from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                    JUst want to add again - we need a "trot out or a pace out" as part of a DQP exam. Currently they just mosey around cones. Get them up into suspension and soring will show.

                    And it might keep the "off" ones out of the ring.

                    Not a bad idea.
                    My experience is what it is. So's yours.

                    The palpation system has its limits and they are well known. So far it's the best system available.

                    "Trotting out" sounds good, but as a practical matter is a non-starter for a bunch of reasons. Anyone with any experience knows that they are.

                    G.
                    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                      My experience is what it is. So's yours.

                      The palpation system has its limits and they are well known. So far it's the best system available.

                      "Trotting out" sounds good, but as a practical matter is a non-starter for a bunch of reasons. Anyone with any experience knows that they are.

                      G.
                      Why? Endurance horses do it to pass a vet check. Showing in SS halter classes requires it. Horses under saddle can't be lead at gait? Please explain.

                      Comment


                      • Unfortunately, FS horses can be sored as much as BL horses. That's what Barney Davis was doing. He mostly "trained" SSHs, but he also did some BL ones. Check out his video on YouTube: http://youtu.be/vZTIbwaibOE
                        Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                        www.forthetwh.com

                        Comment


                        • BUT, we can absolutely trust that the FS horses that show with NWHA, FOSH and the International Walking Horse Association (IWHA) are sound. There is no doubt about it. Those three HIOs are the only ones who are serious about keeping soring out of the ring.
                          Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                          www.forthetwh.com

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                            IOW it sounds like you two got some politics between you. Am I close?
                            I just don't appreciate it when people come online and basically call me a liar when I never said anything about or to them. "The some of the things FFTWH were so incorrect I don't even know where to start to correct the errors. I want it to all stop (Soring & abuse) ,,,but not behind lies, and false statements.."

                            The problem we have with soring is pretty basic--someone wanting to be in the spotlight and will do anything it takes to be there. That being said, there are also people who are against soring who have to try to put others down to make themselves look better, or talk about all of their achievements to boost their own ego. There are hundreds of people out there who are working to end soring in their own way. It doesn't matter what they do--it's the progress. Calling others liars or basically implying they're better than everyone else only causes problems and does not bring us to a solution.
                            Andrea, For the Tennessee Walking Horse
                            www.forthetwh.com

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                              Why? Endurance horses do it to pass a vet check. Showing in SS halter classes requires it. Horses under saddle can't be lead at gait? Please explain.
                              Who trots out a horse at an endurance race? That's you first answer.

                              Then go to a large TWH/Racking/SSH show and observe the DQP for an your or tow. You'll get your second.

                              G.
                              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                              Comment


                              • LOL G !!!! Hehehehehehehe

                                My horse would not get out of a dog walk if I was leading!

                                Might have to have a designated trotter!
                                from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                Comment


                                • Andrea - I am glad you are here. You sure are a great resource! And a good advocate.
                                  from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                                    Of course there is. If you don't understand this then you'll never solve the problem.

                                    G.
                                    It's not rocket science. Throw the violators in jail, slap them with huge fines,take all their stuff. Problem solved. I don't need to parse hairs with evil to know how to deal with it.

                                    Comment


                                    • I guess they couldn't possibly be trained to lead at gait? Got it.

                                      Hell use two people, a tailer with giddy-up-go whip. (White bag on the end of a whip.) You need to get out more and see how saddle horses are shown in-hand. Two people, one to drive them froward and one to hold them back. You're kinda at the whim of the horse. Whatever...apparently it can't be done with TWH's? Because they won't move or because they'll hit the handler with one of those brick laden hooves? The handler can cheat in another way?

                                      No hope for humanity is what I call it.

                                      Comment


                                      • FWIW, three-day fit TB, TB cross and other breed eventers manage to trot out for inspection more than once. Sometimes there are expressions of enthusiasm, but the jury seems to figure it our quite well. And we generally spend all of an hour or two teaching our horses how to do it.

                                        It may not be the complete answer, but it might be part of it.
                                        They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                                        Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                                          I guess they couldn't possibly be trained to lead at gait? Got it.

                                          Hell use two people, a tailer with giddy-up-go whip. (White bag on the end of a whip.) You need to get out more and see how saddle horses are shown in-hand. Two people, one to drive them froward and one to hold them back. You're kinda at the whim of the horse. Whatever...apparently it can't be done with TWH's? Because they won't move or because they'll hit the handler with one of those brick laden hooves? The handler can cheat in another way?

                                          No hope for humanity is what I call it.
                                          Sacasm amy serve in your world but in mine it doesn't.

                                          A proposal was made, questions were raised, and snotty non-answers given in response. Sadly, this is one of the reasons the problems continue. Cordial and their allies are not stupid. They know, from 50 years experience, that anti-soring folks like to "eat their own young." If they just keep their heads down and speak sweet words the anti-forces will implode as the zealots screaming "crucufy them" drive the sane and sensible from the issue. I've personally watched this happen three times in 25 years. I've studied the 25+ years before that and seen the same pattern.

                                          If there is a new "wrinkle" it's the McConnell video. But that's gone from the public eye. The public memory is quite short. It remains to be seen if that will induce new Federal regulation.

                                          While the padded show system is crippled for this year, what about next? And then there's the entire issue of the flat and light shod horses.

                                          I'm not your enemey. I'm not, or ought not to be, the center of your inquirey. You have other problems. Spend some time on them.

                                          G.
                                          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                          Comment

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