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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
    Yes, there is. It's anacdotal. There are no university level studies to support the anacdote.

    On the other hand, do you really need a PhD to tell you that fire burns, water is wet, or the sky is blue? The reasons why might be the province of academic inquiry, but not the what.

    G.
    An *anecdotal account is not nessarsarly true or reliable, the very definition of the word explains this... One or two personal accounts can NOT be generalized to be true of the whole!! Pure and simple logic tells you this. I have no doubt that
    Many on here have experienced horses that were tried BL and got hurt, didn't make, or faced abuse in their past.

    But think about why these people got ahold of these horses at dirt cheap prices.... Or as misrepresented horses....

    In any study you can not only take the failures and conclude your findings to the whole... Yes some horses get hurt, yes some are abused.

    If I was only exposed to the Thoroughbreds that were already dead put down at the track I would conclude that racing always leads to a life ending injury... When that is not the case at all.

    Comment


    • It's absolutely true that anecdote is less reliable than a university level study. So that makes your anecdotes as suspect as anyone else's. Cordials, too.

      But while anecdote may be less than totally reliable it can also be more than totally without value. If you apply a 5W analysis to an anecdotal presentation you can put a reasonable value on the report.

      Your assertion that there is NO evidence of short or long term negative consequences from the BL process itself is patently false. You might want to reconsider it.

      G.
      Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

      Comment


      • I have not posted on this site for 3 years d/t the blatant nastiness of some posters. Well, it's a new year and here we go! GaitedGloryrider, what barn in OH have you purchased sored padded TWH in 2012? Who was the trainer? I can count on one hand the number of padded horses left IN Ohio and I can't even use 5 fingers! Good Lord, there is nothing left so you should be filled with joy! I have yet to see this rampant soring amongst our Ohio exhibitors that you claim is CURRENTLY happening. I don't wish to discuss other states, only Ohio owners and Ohio exhibitors. GaitedGloryRider, do you currently show in Ohio??

        Comment


        • No, I do not show. Never have, never will, not with the TWHBEA. Won't give one red cent to any organization that condones the shit they do. I buy ex-show horses and rehab them, currently have two mares with lovely scars around their front pasterns, who will need quite a bit of farrier work before they can be good using horses. Those are just the ones I happen to have right now, I've been at it for about 15 years so I've had quite a few former BL horses over the years. Nearly every single one of them came from barns here in southern Ohio, a few from KY and TN.

          As for posting names here on the BB, I'm not an idiot. Not setting myself up for the headache that comes with naming and shaming, the legal threats and all that jazz. I've got better things to do with my time.

          Buckeyerev- Just as I pointed out to Cordial...it's asinine for anyone to say they know what goes on in every barn in Ohio. Just because a couple of you BL advocates come on here and swear up and down it isn't happening in Ohio doesn't make it fact. I know better.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by cordial View Post
            No, I am not in serious denial...are you? I know most of the people in Ohio that have TWH's, and I can assure that it is not going on in Ohio anymore. Most of the padded horses that belong to people that live in Ohio, are trained in the soulth and I can't speak for them.
            And as for me being effing stupid, I think that you are the effing stupid person who is posting comments that are not true. I have been showing in and around Ohio for many years, and Ohio has cleaned up their act, whether you believe that or not. Yes, there has been problems in the post...I NEVER denied that, but I know personally most of the people that show Walking horses( most of them pleasure horses) in Ohio, and your claims are untrue. And you Lady, are are totally liar!
            Guess I hit a nerve, huh?

            You are off your rocker. I've got two mares sitting in my barn right now purchased this past spring from two separate training barns in Ohio one of which came with raw, oozing pasterns, both of which required some serious farrier work before I could even begin to think about putting them under saddle due to being trained in stacks.

            Again Cordial, you DO NOT KNOW what goes on in EVERY barn in this state. To say you do, just shows you're complete state of denial on the subject. FFS, a woman I ride with, her son openly admits he sored his horses as recently as a couple years ago when he worked for trainers in both TN and OH, and will readily admit it's still going on in the barns he worked for. You can blow smoke up everyone else's ass about how nobody in the great state of Ohio sores their horses but I know better. As an aside, YOU ARE NOT THE SUPREME EMPEROR OF OHIO HORSE PEOPLE. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS GOING IN EVERY BARN IN THE STATE. And I realize you fancy yourself a big fish in this little pond but somehow I'm having trouble believing you know every Walking Horse person in the state. If you do, you are either in serious denial about what some of them are doing behind the barn, or you're too stupid to realize some of them are soring their horses, or more likely you just don't know everyone in the state.

            Comment


            • GaitedGloryRider obviously cannot converse without the use of profanity. One does not show "with the TWHBEA". They are strictly a breed reigistry. I do not own a padded horse, nor have I ever shown one. I show pl.easure horses and have been active in this breed for 25 plus years. There might be a couple outlaw crazy hillbillies you deal with on the OH river that haven't crawled out of their cave since 1970. I absolutely do not consider those trainers or "training barns" I work my own horses and have shown AQHA and Arabs in the past. I am active in my state breed association and serve on the board of two all breed associations. What qualifications do you bring to the table other than to spew hate? I strive hard to present my horse as a breed ambassador and he has done a great job. I would never buy a puppy from a backyard breeder because you are SUPPORTING them so if I where you I would stop doing business with river rat moonshining hillrods. You might be happier.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BradleyDick View Post
                It is really sad that when a person has a differing opinion that personal attacking is somehow ok....

                Pads do not cause any harm. Prove that they do. Personally I am for a normal size though, I think it looks better.

                I am not a fan of chains either but please prove where the use the legal weighted chains cause harm...

                I have never defended nor ever promoted soring. And you will not imply or state that I do or have! do you understand me?

                I would love a great big lick moving TWH no matter if he were flat shod. There is absolutely no proof that the locomotion of the bl is inherently harmful. I like the locomotion, and I prefer it.

                I also like really fast Thoroughbreds and agile Jumpers aswell, I really like barrel racing AQH's and cutting horses aswell. I really like high stepping ASBs and Hackney's, I also really like refined Warmbloods with amazing controlled movement.
                Do I understand you? NO, I most certainly do not. The issues with the TWH have nothing to do with difference of opinions and everything to do with the welfare of the horse. One of these issues is that people SORE the horses to get the Big Lick action that you like so much. Pads do not cause harm, STACKS do. If chains don't do anything , then why do you use them?

                The locomtion of the big lick is not harmful you say? It's incredible that you say this. Horses should not move with their hocks almost touching the ground and twisting and wrenching from all their weight being on the hind end.

                Sad, very sad indeed.

                Comment


                • ABC News Investigations of the Year:

                  Fighting Cruelty to Horses,you read it right the story of the cruel stacks and pads,beating (as seen in the video) all the horrible ways to get that big lick. has made the Top 5 investigative reports that made a difference.

                  2012- 2013 and beyond
                  We are still watching

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
                    Guess I hit a nerve, huh?

                    You are off your rocker. I've got two mares sitting in my barn right now purchased this past spring from two separate training barns in Ohio one of which came with raw, oozing pasterns, both of which required some serious farrier work before I could even begin to think about putting them under saddle due to being trained in stacks.

                    Again Cordial, you DO NOT KNOW what goes on in EVERY barn in this state. To say you do, just shows you're complete state of denial on the subject. FFS, a woman I ride with, her son openly admits he sored his horses as recently as a couple years ago when he worked for trainers in both TN and OH, and will readily admit it's still going on in the barns he worked for. You can blow smoke up everyone else's ass about how nobody in the great state of Ohio sores their horses but I know better. As an aside, YOU ARE NOT THE SUPREME EMPEROR OF OHIO HORSE PEOPLE. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS GOING IN EVERY BARN IN THE STATE. And I realize you fancy yourself a big fish in this little pond but somehow I'm having trouble believing you know every Walking Horse person in the state. If you do, you are either in serious denial about what some of them are doing behind the barn, or you're too stupid to realize some of them are soring their horses, or more likely you just don't know everyone in the state.
                    No, you didn't hit a nerve, I just think you are very wrong in your accusation.
                    They always say there is no secrets
                    in the WALKINGHORSE WORLD, AND THAT IS SO TRUE. I don't know everybody, but people's reputation are know state wide...both good and bad. Like Buckeyerev posted is so true, we don't know much about the deep part of Sourthern Ohio, so not sure I can say what goes on there, but the rest of the people in the state, I don't know them all in person, but know them by the reputations, and am proud to say I live in the great state of Ohio. NOW BASH AWAY!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by cordial View Post
                      Beg your pardon....it is not going on in Ohio. Where do you get your very wrong information???
                      Here is some info from the HPA violation LIST. In OHIO there are.

                      Richard Alley, Julie Ault, Richard Burnett Sr., Richard Burnett ,
                      Brian Barnes, Charles Barn, Bryan Barnhill, Michael Benedict, Allen Bowman, Logan Brock, R.C. Buckner.this is just the beginning of the alphabet,it does go on thru the Zs- Sam Zickel.

                      So where do you live - in Denial,Ohio ?

                      Comment


                      • No, I don't live in Denial, Ohio, but obviously you are very involved in what goes on in Ohio????
                        Hate to brust your bubble, but most of the people on that list no longer show TWH's, and yes I do know some of them personally, and others by reputation only. Keep digging . .....Keeps you busy and out of trouble. lol

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          Originally posted by cordial View Post
                          Beg your pardon....it is not going on in Ohio. Where do you get your very wrong information???
                          Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
                          Here is some info from the HPA violation LIST. In OHIO there are.

                          Richard Alley, Julie Ault, Richard Burnett Sr., Richard Burnett ,
                          Brian Barnes, Charles Barn, Bryan Barnhill, Michael Benedict, Allen Bowman, Logan Brock, R.C. Buckner.this is just the beginning of the alphabet,it does go on thru the Zs- Sam Zickel.

                          So where do you live - in Denial,Ohio ?


                          Originally posted by cordial View Post
                          No, I don't live in Denial, Ohio, but obviously you are very involved in what goes on in Ohio????
                          Hate to brust your bubble, but most of the people on that list no longer show TWH's, and yes I do know some of them personally, and others by reputation only. Keep digging . .....Keeps you busy and out of trouble. lol

                          Did we hit yet another nerve ? Uh yes cordial it IS going on in Ohio. There were several HPA violators as recently as in 2010,2011 and 2012. So you are wrong, and im not going to waste my time going thru the alphabet to prove it to you. aarpaso already did. Do you think there is some magical line on your side of the bridge in Cincinnati that says Sorers not allowed in Ohio ? Do you also think that Ohio sorers dont cross the state line to show in other states ? D E N I A L (seriously)
                          from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            Originally posted by cordial View Post
                            No, I don't live in Denial, Ohio, but obviously you are very involved in what goes on in Ohio????
                            Hate to brust your bubble, but most of the people on that list no longer show TWH's, and yes I do know some of them personally, and others by reputation only. Keep digging . .....Keeps you busy and out of trouble. lol
                            Most dont meaning some still do show. Kind of answered your own question then, about HPA violators in Ohio.
                            from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                              The issues with the TWH have .... everything to do with the welfare of the horse.
                              I absolutely agree with you.

                              Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                              One of these issues is that people SORE the horses to get the Big Lick action that you like so much.
                              Again I 100% agree with this.


                              Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                              Pads do not cause harm,
                              I 100% agree.


                              Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                              STACKS do. If chains don't do anything , then why do you use them?
                              Personally I am for normal sized pads, and a limit to their size... However I do not see where even the big pads or "stacks" as you call them cause pain, harm, or damage. And I also do not like chains used in the ring, but, they In and of themselves do not cause harm, the TWH is not the only breed to use chains in the training, I do not think saddlebreds, hackneys etc etc would use sets of chains of differnt weights if they caused harm to the horses, and we do have proof that 6oz chains do not cause damge...

                              Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                              The locomtion of the big lick is not harmful you say? It's incredible that you say this.
                              Well, incredible as it might be you'll have to provide a triple blind study that involves a few hundred big lick horses over the course of their lifetime to come up with conclusive, definitive data, to prove one way or the other. I'm around these horses, horses that are world champions to the average middle grade show horse... Horse that have been on pads for 15 years, and retired stallions and broodmares that were on pads for 5 to 10 years that are now off pads... I'm around colts trained and have seen over 15,000 horses in the show ring from a center ring veiw, I see these horses every week working and in their retirement, and I do not see the vast vast majority in any kind of discomfort of pain or suffering any long term ill effects.

                              Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                              Horses should not move with their hocks almost touching the ground and twisting and wrenching from all their weight being on the hind end.

                              Sad, very sad indeed.
                              when I watch sound performance horse go, I do not see their hocks almost touching the groud, I do see them drive behind, and go with a push and pull motion that is inherent of the breed, and is displayed on flat and padded horses of show quality.













                              Nor do I see horses of quality twisting or wrenching their hocks when at gait.

                              Comment


                              • Mr. Dick, those are very impressive photos, but because they are stills really don't fully describe the complete motion of the horses' legs. As I tried to convey many posts ago, maintaining the quarters in a position significantly lower than the withers is unnatural for a horse and mechanically stressful.

                                Look at your stills. The foal has high action, AND it's back is level. What could be more lovely? But then look at the still of the horses showing (say the one of the black horse in front of grandstands). If you look at the photo, the hind legs are very stretched out: one fore, one aft. Ok, now explain the physics of how that horse can stride without raising its haunches? The only way it can do it is through extreme flexion of the hocks and swinging the hind foot out resulting in an exaggerated wide stance and creating forces throughout the hind end that result in significantly abnormal stresses.

                                I wish I had the funds to commission a study of Big Lick and Dressage horses. I would use a thermographic camera before the horses are ridden, immediately after they come out of the ring, an hour later and the next day. I think that the effect on the joints and muscles might become evident, and I think that the dressage horses would have significantly less.

                                But alas, I haven't won the lottery yet.
                                They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                                Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
                                  Did we hit yet another nerve ? Uh yes cordial it IS going on in Ohio. There were several HPA violators as recently as in 2010,2011 and 2012. So you are wrong, and im not going to waste my time going thru the alphabet to prove it to you. aarpaso already did. Do you think there is some magical line on your side of the bridge in Cincinnati that says Sorers not allowed in Ohio ? Do you also think that Ohio sorers dont cross the state line to show in other states ? D E N I A L (seriously)
                                  No, you are not "hitting a nerve:, I know way more aboutt Ohio then you do, so keep on stirring the pot and trying to make all people in Ohio Look bad. Have a great New Year!You are so totally wrong, but Time will tell...won't it!

                                  Comment


                                  • Once a horse is "stacked" he is stalled for all but a 1/2 hour or so of activity. The standing in a stall necessitates the wraps to control the edema from all the standing and not moving. If you slap a chain (even a legal chain) on an edematous ankle, you are likely gona get scurfing. With scurfing can come scars and the soreness etc. They also grease the legs to prevent scurfing from the chain - but the sad thing is all that dripping greasy goo also MOL inflames the skin of the leg making it more likely to scurf.

                                    The comment made of "maybe a little less shoe and no chain" is the most sensible thing to come from the other side. So many evils will disappear when this transition is made. But I think the padded folks waited too make this peace offering of a little less stack/no chain. I think the law to ban them is the only way to go.

                                    Eliminate the stacks and the chains and bands - NWHA did so with very good results.

                                    They made a statement of support on HR6388 with the proviso that their preference for heavy shoes be permitted. I think their plantation shoe needs to go, too.

                                    Here is their statement:
                                    HR6388 – Clarification of NWHA’s Position

                                    The National Walking Horse Association presents the following clarification regarding the position statement on HR6388. The original position statement of October 24, 2012, as written, has resulted in some questioning whether NWHA opposes the Bill: nothing could be further from the truth. Let there be no mistake; NWHA supports HR6388. However clarification from legislators regarding terms and definitions such as "weighted shoes" is vital to meaningful legislation. A written explanation of how “weighted shoes” will be determined from someone involved in the process at the government level would help ease concerns that many NWHA members have. We do not believe this is an unreasonable request. We have contacted the sponsors of the Bill and with understanding that this is a very busy time of the year, we are awaiting a response. This is not just a concern for NWHA; other breeds and disciplines wear what could be considered “weighted shoes” including Saddlebreds, Hackneys, Reiners, Arabians, Morgans and even some Dressage horses. Even though these other breeds and disciplines are not necessarily covered under the HPA if this Bill is made law, without clarification, it could eventually impact them as well. NWHA has worked hand in hand with the USDA since its inception. Time and time again NWHA has been shown to be at the forefront of horse protection. Soon after our founding, we banned pads, action devices, and bands on our showgrounds. We have put hours of research into weight limits for our shoes to ensure that no horse will be exposed to the extreme weight of a shoe made of either full or partial tungsten. We have been chosen many times to represent the walking horse in a number of situations because of what we stand for, the zero tolerance for abuse of this great horse. Our dedication to the protection of this breed will never falter. In conclusion, we at NWHA offer support and aid in any way possible to the US Government while they draft legislation and implement new procedures to protect the walking horse.
                                    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                    Comment


                                    • For those that "know" or maybe wanna know I have to point out that some of the stills posted above show horses in a "pace" not a running walk. The stacked chestnut exampled is in a pace (off side legs are both off the ground) and so too is the baby.

                                      The pacing horse does have great over stride. The stack breaks up the foot fall timing from 2 beat to 4 beat and makes it smooth but not a running walk.

                                      Sure a lot of these stacked horses can do a running walk - but they can do it without the stack and chain. And without the chain and stack they can do it for miles - not just the few minutes the crawl subjects them to.
                                      from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        Originally posted by cordial View Post
                                        Beg your pardon....it is not going on in Ohio. Where do you get your very wrong information???
                                        Originally posted by cordial View Post
                                        No, you are not "hitting a nerve:, I know way more aboutt Ohio then you do, so keep on stirring the pot and trying to make all people in Ohio Look bad. Have a great New Year!You are so totally wrong, but Time will tell...won't it!
                                        hey there cordial - don't put words in my mouth. I never said all Ohio TWH horsemen are bad. Those are your words. You are quoted saying that soring does not take place in your state of Ohio. The HPA Violation list proves that soring does indeed go on in the state of Ohio and by Ohio horsemen who travel out of state to show and there are many occurrences in the last 3 years. You have a happy new year too.
                                        from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                                        Comment


                                        • Working hard, and having stresses applied to the body is nether cruel or damaging if the horse is properly conditioned to handle the stresses.... It sounds like a lot of you are against a horse actually working in the show ring or giving any effort... But trail ridding in the mountains all day once or twice a week is ok....

                                          Comment

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