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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Originally posted by BradleyDick View Post
    There is absolutely no proof or evidence that backs up your claim. None what's so ever.
    What in the world...???

    No horse should move like a BL horse. It hurts just to watch them crawling around.

    Good lord, man, open your eyes and look at those horses struggling. OF COURSE it is damaging to all four limbs.

    Comment


    • Fairfax I'm sorry but your high heel argument is invalid. Us women make a conscience decision to take the long-term risks wearing them, we do not have men nailing shoes to out feet. The horses obviously have no choice in the matter.

      FWIW I'm a pump girl myself, I find high heels rather uncomfortable. Don't even own a pair.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
        I have never argued they don't cause joint pain.

        I was pointing out that my ex did not suffer from any effects of high heels.
        I do not know if her legs and feet adapted OR they were formed in such a manner that it caused her no problems. She is over 60 and has worn them since she was 15

        I expect the same can be stated about SOME TWH's. That is why I have no reason to doubt Cordial. She (?) has owned them for a long time AND would have had noticed any soring over that period of time. There is no reason for anyone to question her honesty.

        I still wonder why there have not been any PUBLISHED studies by vets and under the direction of a university? That is where they study the horse against others and do follow them documenting problems OR dispelling urban legends.
        High heels pay for the houses, cars, and boats of a lot of podiatrists and orthopedists. They also probably buy a fair number of college degrees for their children. My mother wore heels most of her life as a teacher; she had some foot deformation in her later years. In China they used to use an analog of the stack/band to bind girls feet and keep them small for aesthetic reasons. There's plenty of evidence that things are capable of serious deformation of living tissue.

        And, remember, a woman takes off her high heels for at least 8 hours a day.

        You know, as well as I do, that university level studies on this sort of thing will be very expensive. They will of necessity be multi-year and will include a significant number of horses. Who's gonna fund it? The TWHBEA? Yeah, when pigs fly on that one. Who else? The USDA? I don't read the HPA as authorizing research on soring, just enforcement of the law. An independent group? Any research from this type of study will immediately be challenged by one side or the other (depending on who's ox is being gored).

        I would not have much respect for any alleged equine professional that could not tell the difference between a therapeutic pad and a "cosmetic" pad. While there might, in a very few cases be some overlap, applying the "first, do no harm" standard could separate the sheep from the goats pretty quickly, here.

        As to Cordials allegations, "where's the beef???"

        Again, the assertion that the cosmetic pad system used in the creation of the Big Lick has NO impact on the health of the horse is one that is made by either a blind man, a committed zealot, or paid shill.

        G.
        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

        Comment


        • I was thinking a bit more about the analogy to women wearing high heels. It may convert many more to the cause because so many women know how uncomfortable they are, but anatomically it's not quite the same.

          I'm pretty sure that the weight differential (foot pounds per square inch maybe?) is more than a little significant. Also, horses are walking on the anatomical equivalent of one toe. Yes, they have evolved to do it quite well. But maybe the analogy is to the ballerina en pointe. There are rare dancers who can have a top rung career for many years (analogous to Cordial's horse). But the majority can't. For the love of dance they choose to subject themselves to pain. But even then, they are fighting time and do everything they can when not dancing to protect and soothe their feet. As with horses, no foot no dancer.

          And a ballerina is en pointe only a small part of her day.
          Last edited by frugalannie; Dec. 17, 2012, 12:15 PM. Reason: typo
          They don't call me frugal for nothing.
          Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

          Comment


          • Well, since the proponents are busy gathering info to present here as to the dimensions of their shoeing protocols, I was wondering if they would also offer an explanation to the uninformed as to why stacked horses are wrapped when standing in stalls. And of course we know no one here is soring - but why the wraps??
            from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

            Comment


            • The en pointe analogy is the best one so far. It's completely unnatural, like the big lick. I've known 2 women who were in the American Ballet Theater (Company?) when they were younger. One was 50, the other was 60, and both had life-time problems from en pointe, and said *all* ballet dancers had problems. It's a big decision in a young dancer's career, and teachers are careful to explain the long term consequences. They become professional ballet dancers knowing what's going to happen to their bodies. Unfortunately for horses, no one gives them a choice.

              Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
              I was thinking a bit more about the analogy to women wearing high heels. It may convert many more to the cause because so many women know how uncomfortable they are, but anatomically it's not quite the same.

              I'm pretty sure that the weight differential (foot pounds per square inch maybe?) is more than a little significant. Also, horses are walking on the anatomical equivalent of one toe. Yes, they have evolved to do it quite well. But maybe the analogy is to the ballerina en pointe. There are rare dancers who can have a top rung career for many years (analogous to Cordial's horse). But the majority can't. For the love of dance they choose to subject themselves to pain. But even then, they are fighting time and do everything they can when not dancing to protect and soothe their feet. As with horses, no foot no dancer.

              And a ballerina is en points only a small part of her day.
              In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

              Comment


              • The point is not all women suffer the effects of high heels. Of course it is different that horses etc...but it was posted to point out there are ALWAYS going to be exceptions and if Cordial has a safe and sound horse..that is good enough for me..It does not mean a pro trainer does..it does not imply an amateur who never sees her horse does..but here we have a poster who is close to her horses...has owned them over a decade and I think that puts her in a position to post about HER horses without the implication that she is a liar or covering for anyone.

                Ballet is a classic example. There are dancers who have "good feet". They do not suffer in the same manner the way those who do not have good feet do.

                I will leave the debate to those who acually own TWH's.

                Good Luck on the anti soring...

                As to who should fund the study? Gosh...why not ask your buddy at HSUS? They have hundreds of millions of dollars and I bet they have taken in at least 1 million over this occurance. Maybe they could put someor that donated money towards actually doing something...i.e. a test by a qualified university research team.
                The Elephant in the room

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                  The point is not all women suffer the effects of high heels. Of course it is different that horses etc...but it was posted to point out there are ALWAYS going to be exceptions and if Cordial has a safe and sound horse..that is good enough for me..It does not mean a pro trainer does..it does not imply an amateur who never sees her horse does..but here we have a poster who is close to her horses...has owned them over a decade and I think that puts her in a position to post about HER horses without the implication that she is a liar or covering for anyone.

                  Ballet is a classic example. There are dancers who have "good feet". They do not suffer in the same manner the way those who do not have good feet do.

                  I will leave the debate to those who acually own TWH's.

                  Good Luck on the anti soring...

                  As to who should fund the study? Gosh...why not ask your buddy at HSUS? They have hundreds of millions of dollars and I bet they have taken in at least 1 million over this occurance. Maybe they could put someor that donated money towards actually doing something...i.e. a test by a qualified university research team.
                  There alot of people that have BAD feet, who have never been on toe shoes, or worn heels. They just have plain bad feet,many since childhood! That is what keeps foot doctors busy.
                  The HSUS collects millions of dollars, but puts very little back into the care of animals that need it.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
                    i been playing connect the dots again looking at Chad Way,

                    he rode a horse named The Touch at the celebration 1994, does anyone remember this horse? is this horse still showing? if a stallion is gelded do the TWH paper get reprinted as gelded.just wondering.
                    As far as I know The Touch is still breeding, but no longer showing. He is up in years!.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      Some things are obvious. Is a study really necessary ? I keep going back to the fact that the AVMA and AAEP are against the use of stacks and action devices. Did they need a study to take that stand ? Or did their knowledge of anatomy and physiology (the study of the mechanical, physical, and biochemical functions of living organisms) lead them to that conclusion ? Comparing what hasnt been done (a study) to what has been done (releasing their educated conclusion) is pretty much apples/oranges to me.


                      But but but there hasnt been a study they say. Do we need a study to determine how much boiling water poured on someones skin will result in a painful 3rd degree burn ? How much and what temperature will just produce a 1st or 2nd degree burn ? Has such a study been done ? If not, then it must be okay to do that and it wont hurt a bit.
                      from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                        The point is not all women suffer the effects of high heels. Of course it is different that horses etc...but it was posted to point out there are ALWAYS going to be exceptions and if Cordial has a safe and sound horse..that is good enough for me..It does not mean a pro trainer does..it does not imply an amateur who never sees her horse does..but here we have a poster who is close to her horses...has owned them over a decade and I think that puts her in a position to post about HER horses without the implication that she is a liar or covering for anyone.

                        Ballet is a classic example. There are dancers who have "good feet". They do not suffer in the same manner the way those who do not have good feet do.

                        I will leave the debate to those who acually own TWH's.

                        Good Luck on the anti soring...

                        As to who should fund the study? Gosh...why not ask your buddy at HSUS? They have hundreds of millions of dollars and I bet they have taken in at least 1 million over this occurance. Maybe they could put someor that donated money towards actually doing something...i.e. a test by a qualified university research team.
                        It may be true that not all women suffer injury from wearing high heels. But that has no relevance to the padded horse as they don't wear high heels. The analogy is false from the get go.

                        All we know about Cordial is that she has a free account here on the COTH Forum.

                        HSUS is not, nor has it ever been, "my buddy." Anyone who says otherwise is damned liar. But that doesn't exactly address the question, what?

                        You seem bound and determined to conflate a valid therapy with an abusive husbandry practice.

                        For near unto 25 years I've listened to the Cordials and Dicks of the world defend the Big Lick practices. The defense was hollow back in '88 and it's hollow now.

                        G.
                        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                          It may be true that not all women suffer injury from wearing high heels. But that has no relevance to the padded horse as they don't wear high heels. The analogy is false from the get go.

                          All we know about Cordial is that she has a free account here on the COTH Forum.

                          HSUS is not, nor has it ever been, "my buddy." Anyone who says otherwise is damned liar. But that doesn't exactly address the question, what?

                          You seem bound and determined to conflate a valid therapy with an abusive husbandry practice.

                          For near unto 25 years I've listened to the Cordials and Dicks of the world defend the Big Lick practices. The defense was hollow back in '88 and it's hollow now.

                          G.
                          Don't you get yours free, too??? LOL

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by cordial View Post
                            For your information all of our horses are in training 50 minutes from my house, and we have had the same trainer since we first got into Walking Horses. I know how she feels on every aspect of this industry, and she knows how we feel on all aspects of this industry, and I trust her 100%. Having a horse in the south, and not seeing your horse frequently, could lead to some trainers pulling the "wool-over their customers eyes" on the subject of soring, but that is not our case. As far as the shoeing of our padded gelding, I am there when he is shod, and have watched many times, but believe me his feet, legs are in amazing shape. I don't know alot about shoeing...even with my lite-shod horses shoe.......he is in a lite-shod competition shoe, and his feet are in perfect shape, especially for his age amd years in the show ring. I don't know what more you want me to say....all I know is I can sleep at night with no problem. I really am getting tired of trying to agrue with all of self-appointed know-it all's about the performance horse. Go on with your information and keep posting all of your research, while I enjoy my horses.. Have a great holiday season!

                            Thanks I will keep posting research:
                            THE ENERGETIC AND KINEMATIC CONSEQUENCES OF WEIGHTING THE
                            DISTAL LIMB
                            Steven J. Wickler*, Donald F. Hoyt**, Hilary M. Clayton***, David R. Mullineaux***,
                            Edward A. Cogger*,Esperanza Sandoval*, Robert McGuire
                            *
                            , and Carmen Lopez
                            **
                            Equine Research Center and the Departments of
                            *
                            Animal and Veterinary Science and
                            **
                            Biology,
                            California State Polytechnic University, Pomona, CA, and the
                            ***
                            McPhail Equine Performance
                            Center, Michigan State University, MI, USA
                            Keywords: cost of transport, equine, horse, oxygen consumption
                            Summary
                            Reason for performing study: It is well known that adding a load to a horse’s back increases its
                            energetic costs of locomotion. However the magnitude of the increase resulting from adding the
                            load to the most distal portion of limb has not been measured.
                            Objectives: Oxygen consumption will be measured in horses with mass added to the back and
                            added to the hooves. Because such mass distribution will alter inertial parameters of the limbs,
                            kinematic measurements will be made to quantify the magnitude of change in limb movement.
                            Methods: Steady-state oxygen consumption was measured in 6 horses with a load of 2.4 kg. The
                            load was either carried on the back or equally distributed between the four limbs. Modified bell
                            boots kept the mass at the level of P3. Horses trotted on a treadmill at speeds ranging from 2 to 5
                            m/s (in 0.5 m/s increments). High-speed (250 Hz) digital images were recorded in a sagittal
                            plane and the positions of retro-reflective markers located on standard positions on the limbs
                            were digitized for kinematic analysis. Results: Loading of the distal limbs produced a 6.7% increase in metabolic rate—an order of
                            magnitude higher than when the mass was added over the back. Although the stride period was
                            2% longer in horses with loads on the distal limbs, the time of contact and duty factor were not
                            different. Distal limb loading increased the range of motion in hind limbs, but not forelimbs.
                            Conclusions: The costs of swinging the limbs in the horse are considerable and the addition of
                            weights to the distal limb can have a profound effect on not only the energetics of locomotion,
                            but also the kinematics—at least in the hind limb.
                            Potential Relevance: The use of weighted shoes, intended to increase the animation of the gait,
                            will increase the metabolic effort of performance horses a disproportionate amount. The
                            additional mass also increases the joint range of motion and potentially increases the likelihood
                            of injury.
                            Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by cordial View Post
                              Don't you get yours free, too??? LOL
                              Absolutely. But the point is you have made claims. Some accept them at face value; some don't. All we KNOW is that you have a free COTH account. And neither more nor less.

                              G.
                              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                                Absolutely. But the point is you have made claims. Some accept them at face value; some don't. All we KNOW is that you have a free COTH account. And neither more nor less.

                                G.
                                Yes, I have made claims about OUR horses, nobody else's, just mine, and if you don't believe me, I could care less. Whatever!

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by cordial View Post
                                  Yes, I have made claims about OUR horses, nobody else's, just mine, and if you don't believe me, I could care less. Whatever!
                                  I think you care a great deal. Otherwise you'd just fade off into the ether.

                                  G.
                                  Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                  Comment


                                  • "into the ether" and the world of indifference is where the stacked industry is hoping to find HR6388.

                                    Lets not turn away again.

                                    And Cordial, you do twist some points to be personal which are not. In my mind, it is the same defensive reasoning that allows you to accept the stacks and chains on your horse as good for him. Many out there like you supporting this. ANd there is no way to educate you on the matter cause simple reasoning will not do. And this is why the law needs to pass.

                                    Originally posted by cordial View Post
                                    Thanks Fairfax for your positive post. I was at a Walking Horse Christmas last night, and every body is on the same page...they know change is coming and they are fine with that. They are all willing to do what it takes to move this industry forward. There was padded horse people and flat-shod people there, and also other breeds were represented.
                                    By the way, 100% of the people there feel that H.R.6683 will not pass, but most everybody is okay if it does pass. Have a great Holiday, Fairfax!
                                    You did say at one point that your group voiced a willingness to accept "changes are inevitable." Can you share here what changes are acceptable? And is there any effort on your groups part to enact those changes now?
                                    Last edited by hurleycane; Dec. 18, 2012, 08:27 AM.
                                    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      Remember back in June when a trainer Joe Cotten took the 3 year old filly Jose Wine And Roses in for training? Her heels were scarred and he made pics of her heels public. Today Joe was supposed to get punished by SHOW for sharing the pictures. Havent heard if a meeting took place. Here is some background from back in June. Warning: graphic photos.

                                      http://forthetnwalkinghorse.blogspot...os-pop-up.html
                                      from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                                      Comment


                                      • THE WGC Walking Horse is not usually shown after winning it all. Bradley, where is The Touch now? I was there the night he won nearly knocking his own teeth out he was strong. For what it is, it was an amazing ride to watch. Will never forget him coming into the arena.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                                          What in the world...???

                                          No horse should move like a BL horse. It hurts just to watch them crawling around.

                                          Good lord, man, open your eyes and look at those horses struggling. OF COURSE it is damaging to all four limbs.
                                          You simpy have no idea what you're talking about and no proof or evidence to suggest it. It is simply untrue.

                                          Comment

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