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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Originally posted by cordial View Post
    Quite frankly, I think that it has been more then just vet care,shelter, good medical attention....we get teased by other horse people that we go overboard with calling the vet, (our vet is probably the finest vet this side of the Mississippi river...his specialty is horses legs)...people come from all over the country to bring their horses to him. So we go beyond what the average person does, and quite frankly it pays off. Our trainer treats all her clients horses as they were her kids. TWH's are also known as being a pretty healthy breed, so blast away at me, but I know the truth as to why we have aged horses that still compete.
    Quite frankly, you're simply doing what any other conscientious and responsible animal owner does for their animals. I'm sorry but I just don't think having animals that live long lives warrants a free pass for putting one through such controversial and potentially abusive training practices. Our barn cats tend to live into their late teens, one made it to 22. That's an extremely long time for barn cats. Shall I tell the BO we now have enough karma banked up to nick the ASB's tails and put some ginger around their anus for the next show?

    And it absolutely does boil down to good food, routine vet care and prompt medical attention. Okay I'll admit providing a safe living environment and starting off with animals that were bred for soundness and to be free of genetic defects also factors in. But love alone hardly extends their lives. If that were the case we wouldn't see hoarders with scores of dead animals.

    Originally posted by cordial View Post
    We bought this Gelding from a trainer in Tenn., and he had a certain package on, and quite frankly he has had many new packages over the many years we have had him, but I leave all the details of the shoeing to the trainer and farrier...thats what I pay him for. I know that his shoeing has been basically the same for a long time...they find what works, and keep it that way But I will ask the trainer when I go out next week and ask her to write some measurements and report them to you.

    By the way, I really don't give two hoots if you believe me or not.
    Also By the way, do you think the H.R. 6388 is going to pass? Also I am sure by saying that we bought him from a trainer in Tenn. I will get bashed, and also he is a world champion padded gelding, and I am sure you will screech about that...
    All your arguments about your horse suffering no ill effects as a result of being a big lick horse...well it just kinda went out the window. How can you sit there and say you *KNOW*, when you don't even know what's being done to his feet?

    There is a lovely lady in my chapter of a certain horseman's association who's son used to be a big lick trainer, working for a decent-sized barn in TN that has turned out some champions. He took a shine to me and we dated briefly a few years ago after he had a change of heart and moved back up her to Ohio. He had a lot to say about the politics and goings-on, especially regarding the absentee owners who just let the trainers and farriers make all the decisions.

    I believe his exact words were they believed what they wanted to believe. They'd ask the right questions "You don't do *that* kind of training, do you?" and they'd just smile and say "oh of course not!". He also told me he came the opinion rather quickly that these people were either too caught up in seeing their horse win to allow themselves to see the truth, or were just plain stupid. He said it was obvious to anyone who spent even a little time watching the goings-on at the barn the horses were being sored.

    Like you, (according to him) not a one of them could tell you specifics about how their horse was shod, trained etc. They just let the trainers and farriers "do what worked". In part it's that kind of passive horse ownership that allows, in this discipline, the crap to continue.

    I do hope for your horse's sake your trainer is on the up-and-up. But I'm not going to lie...I think it's pretty foolish to show such blind trust with any trainer especially in the TWH performance industry.

    And P.S...This fella never got any tickets in the few years he trained/showed. They don't all get caught. Please don't try to counteract my argument with "no tickets, ever!", you'll have to come up with something better than that.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
      Quite frankly, you're simply doing what any other conscientious and responsible animal owner does for their animals. I'm sorry but I just don't think having animals that live long lives warrants a free pass for putting one through such controversial and potentially abusive training practices. Our barn cats tend to live into their late teens, one made it to 22. That's an extremely long time for barn cats. Shall I tell the BO we now have enough karma banked up to nick the ASB's tails and put some ginger around their anus for the next show?

      And it absolutely does boil down to good food, routine vet care and prompt medical attention. Okay I'll admit providing a safe living environment and starting off with animals that were bred for soundness and to be free of genetic defects also factors in. But love alone hardly extends their lives. If that were the case we wouldn't see hoarders with scores of dead animals.



      All your arguments about your horse suffering no ill effects as a result of being a big lick horse...well it just kinda went out the window. How can you sit there and say you *KNOW*, when you don't even know what's being done to his feet?

      There is a lovely lady in my chapter of a certain horseman's association who's son used to be a big lick trainer, working for a decent-sized barn in TN that has turned out some champions. He took a shine to me and we dated briefly a few years ago after he had a change of heart and moved back up her to Ohio. He had a lot to say about the politics and goings-on, especially regarding the absentee owners who just let the trainers and farriers make all the decisions.

      I believe his exact words were they believed what they wanted to believe. They'd ask the right questions "You don't do *that* kind of training, do you?" and they'd just smile and say "oh of course not!". He also told me he came the opinion rather quickly that these people were either too caught up in seeing their horse win to allow themselves to see the truth, or were just plain stupid. He said it was obvious to anyone who spent even a little time watching the goings-on at the barn the horses were being sored.

      Like you, (according to him) not a one of them could tell you specifics about how their horse was shod, trained etc. They just let the trainers and farriers "do what worked". In part it's that kind of passive horse ownership that allows, in this discipline, the crap to continue.

      I do hope for your horse's sake your trainer is on the up-and-up. But I'm not going to lie...I think it's pretty foolish to show such blind trust with any trainer especially in the TWH performance industry.

      And P.S...This fella never got any tickets in the few years he trained/showed. They don't all get caught. Please don't try to counteract my argument with "no tickets, ever!", you'll have to come up with something better than that.
      For your information all of our horses are in training 50 minutes from my house, and we have had the same trainer since we first got into Walking Horses. I know how she feels on every aspect of this industry, and she knows how we feel on all aspects of this industry, and I trust her 100%. Having a horse in the south, and not seeing your horse frequently, could lead to some trainers pulling the "wool-over their customers eyes" on the subject of soring, but that is not our case. As far as the shoeing of our padded gelding, I am there when he is shod, and have watched many times, but believe me his feet, legs are in amazing shape. I don't know alot about shoeing...even with my lite-shod horses shoe.......he is in a lite-shod competition shoe, and his feet are in perfect shape, especially for his age amd years in the show ring. I don't know what more you want me to say....all I know is I can sleep at night with no problem. I really am getting tired of trying to agrue with all of self-appointed know-it all's about the performance horse. Go on with your information and keep posting all of your research, while I enjoy my horses.. Have a great holiday season!

      Comment


      • the post by cffarm, says all that needs to be said.the video speaks loud and clear. anyone that takes the time to look at it.

        Comment


        • Ditto GGR. No offense Cordial - but when you were so adamant about how your horses were cared for I was sure you had them in your yard - not with a trainer. Now that you say they are managed by a trainer - well your arguments are invalid. You can only speak to what you believe is happening you really do not have "first hand" knowledge on this matter.

          ANd Ditto CFFarm - none of the grace and beauty on display. The rationale behind the necessity of an "action device" was sickening. As I understand it was added to keep the natural moving and trained horse out of the ring. You have the link to the referenced shoeing regulations?

          Originally posted by CFFarm View Post
          Found the judging criteria for the performance division. : Bolded parts mine.


          Sorry, but anyone see any of this going on other than the "Must be shown in pads and braced tail" part.

          A. Performance Division
          (1) General Description, Rules, and Judging Criteria:
          A Performance Horse is a horse that has received training to accentuate the natural
          gaits associated with the breed. [COLOR=""]Such horses must perform with action devices to give
          an added dimension to their performance in the ring.
          [/COLOR] Performance Horses must be
          shown in pads as required by the shoeing rules and regulations.
          Performance Horses
          are shown with braced tails, either Walking Horse or humane type. (Caps and Switches
          are optional). ....[/B]
          from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

          Comment


          • Cordial - If you want - just post pics of their feet/legs. It may or may not speak all that you need to say.
            from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

            Comment


            • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
              Ditto GGR. No offense Cordial - but when you were so adamant about how your horses were cared for I was sure you had them in your yard - not with a trainer. Now that you say they are managed by a trainer - well your arguments are invalid. You can only speak to what you believe is happening you really do not have "first hand" knowledge on this matter.

              ANd Ditto CFFarm - none of the grace and beauty on display. The rationale behind the necessity of an "action device" was sickening. As I understand it was added to keep the natural moving and trained horse out of the ring. You have the link to the referenced shoeing regulations?
              Hurleycane, do you think I am some stupid idiot...the barn is 50 minutes from our home and we are there frequently. I have had the same trainer for 21 years, and I trust her completely with the care of our horses. She feels the same way about the soring and all of the other abuses you talk about. It costs us alot of money per month to keep these horses to be well-cared for and treated right...do you think that we just turn our heads and stick them in the sand and don't keep up on whats going on in this industry?? You are so blinded by all the B.S. that you Anti's spread, you don't know the truth when you are told it. I can sleep at night knowing our horses are in great hands. The other horses in her training barn are also well-taken care of and we are all friendly to one another. We also talk with each other, and if there was one inking of abuse , we would all know it and do something about it.. I refuse to answer back to you anymore...you are determined to be on a witch hunt with padded horses, and in particularly with ours. Maybe you should take up another "cause" with all your spare time. There sure are plenty of things to get involved in and help change. Also you didn't answer the question...do you think H.R.6683 will pass?

              Comment


              • If you are so sure that you are doing right by your horse, and so sure of his soundness/quality of life, then why spend so much time on here trying to sway the minds of us on our "witch hunt"? You've got to realize by now that one sound horse (if indeed he is sound, forgive me for not just taking your word on it) isn't going to negate the fact that so many more suffer in this industry. Maybe in your mind it does, but not for the rest of us.

                It's just like HYPP breeders with their twitchy post-legged beefcakes gimping around 00's. Neither groups are capable of seeing the forest for the trees or more specifically how their horses are detriment to the breed overall. You just holler on about your rights and why you think it's okay expecting everyone else to just shut up and accept it never considering hey, maybe this isn't what is best for these horses, their comfort, their quality of life.

                There is a reason big lick advocates garner *zero* respect from any other credible group of horsemen. Because it's wrong. It's not just a smattering of wing-nuts that are appalled by it, it's pretty much every single person outside of the industry. Too bad the industry itself is too self-absorbed to realize it.

                These horses are not a vehicle for you to gratify your ego, they are sentient beings. Take a step back and look at what you're a part of FFS.

                Comment


                • Cordial - Enough with the histrionics. It is a discussion on a BB. And if you tire of the scrutiny - well, remember you chose to enter the ring. You and the victims of witch hunts have nothing in common.

                  I did not see where you asked me if HR6388 will pass. My answer is Yes.
                  from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
                    If you are so sure that you are doing right by your horse, and so sure of his soundness/quality of life, then why spend so much time on here trying to sway the minds of us on our "witch hunt"? You've got to realize by now that one sound horse (if indeed he is sound, forgive me for not just taking your word on it) isn't going to negate the fact that so many more suffer in this industry. Maybe in your mind it does, but not for the rest of us.

                    It's just like HYPP breeders with their twitchy post-legged beefcakes gimping around 00's. Neither groups are capable of seeing the forest for the trees or more specifically how their horses are detriment to the breed overall. You just holler on about your rights and why you think it's okay expecting everyone else to just shut up and accept it never considering hey, maybe this isn't what is best for these horses, their comfort, their quality of life.

                    There is a reason big lick advocates garner *zero* respect from any other credible group of horsemen. Because it's wrong. It's not just a smattering of wing-nuts that are appalled by it, it's pretty much every single person outside of the industry. Too bad the industry itself is too self-absorbed to realize it.

                    These horses are not a vehicle for you to gratify your ego, they are sentient beings. Take a step back and look at what you're a part of FFS.
                    I think that I have as much right to defend as you do to critize. I realize that there is abuse in the TWH's (and all breeds for that matter), but there are plenty of people that train, ride and show sound horses. I guess you just know the bad ones.
                    Our horses are not to gratify our ego's...since we had them for so long they are an important part of our family. You can say, twist, accuse and go on and on, but we have sound horses. And we are not the only people that do as we do. Now you have a good holiday season and new year!

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      This is tiresome, and i dont get all het up about cordial's sound medical miracle horse.

                      The opinions of the AVMA, AAEP and AFA are against stacking horses and using action devices on them. Not just soring, but stacking and action devices.

                      Take you arguments to them, cordial. I have better stuff to read and to do.
                      Last edited by WalkInTheWoods; Dec. 15, 2012, 10:23 PM. Reason: fixed something
                      from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by cordial View Post
                        I think that I have as much right to defend as you do to critize. I realize that there is abuse in the TWH's (and all breeds for that matter), but there are plenty of people that train, ride and show sound horses. I guess you just know the bad ones.
                        Our horses are not to gratify our ego's...since we had them for so long they are an important part of our family. You can say, twist, accuse and go on and on, but we have sound horses. And we are not the only people that do as we do. Now you have a good holiday season and new year!
                        I guess I'm just a bit confused as to why you continue to try and change minds in this thread when it simply won't happen. As my grandpa used to say, you are pissing up a rope. Surely you know that.

                        Are you saying, and do you honestly believe, that the stacks have no, none, zero, zip, zilch detrimental effects on a horse's joints? I don't think anyone is accusing you of actively soring your horse or even condoning it at the hands of your trainer. More like they are accusing you of denying the fact that the stacks in and of themselves pose a (rather unnecessary) risk to the horse's overall well-being. And to what end? Everything about the big lick gait goes against what a performance SHOULD be, as outlined by their own standards.

                        One conclusion can be drawn from your statements...while your heart may be in the right place you are simply too caught up in playing with the big boys to see what you are involved in. If you truly were in it "for the breed" then I find it extremely hard to believe you'd chose to financially support such an industry. There are so, so many other ways and even other show venues where the TWH can be showcased that doesn't involve consorting with known abusers, funding their shows with your entry monies and turning a blind eye to abuse. No, it's an ego stroke. My World Champion this, my world champion that. See how much I love my horses, my world champions.

                        World championships in the TWHBEA are all about politics anyway. They are bought and sold like a loaf of bread. If you really do own WC horses, well my opinion of you just got even lower because that means you are playing their game on their level.

                        Anyway you have a lovely holiday season also.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
                          I guess I'm just a bit confused as to why you continue to try and change minds in this thread when it simply won't happen. As my grandpa used to say, you are pissing up a rope. Surely you know that.

                          Are you saying, and do you honestly believe, that the stacks have no, none, zero, zip, zilch detrimental effects on a horse's joints? I don't think anyone is accusing you of actively soring your horse or even condoning it at the hands of your trainer. More like they are accusing you of denying the fact that the stacks in and of themselves pose a (rather unnecessary) risk to the horse's overall well-being. And to what end? Everything about the big lick gait goes against what a performance SHOULD be, as outlined by their own standards.

                          One conclusion can be drawn from your statements...while your heart may be in the right place you are simply too caught up in playing with the big boys to see what you are involved in. If you truly were in it "for the breed" then I find it extremely hard to believe you'd chose to financially support such an industry. There are so, so many other ways and even other show venues where the TWH can be showcased that doesn't involve consorting with known abusers, funding their shows with your entry monies and turning a blind eye to abuse. No, it's an ego stroke. My World Champion this, my world champion that. See how much I love my horses, my world champions.

                          World championships in the TWHBEA are all about politics anyway. They are bought and sold like a loaf of bread. If you really do own WC horses, well my opinion of you just got even lower because that means you are playing their game on their level.

                          Anyway you have a lovely holiday season also.
                          This...

                          Comment


                          • Cordial. Don't even bother. I had the same results with the anti slaughter group. MOST of them had never been to a slaughter plant for ongoing observation and only a couple had actually visited one. Everything was second hand or on old and or altered video.

                            Enjoy your horses...they don't want to hear that any TWH that has ever been shown is sound UNLESS it is by one of their supporters...i.e. Preacher.

                            Amazing how many will psycho babble you with their analysis or you and or your horse.

                            As an analysis...High Heels for women. MOST women who have worn them have arch and or calf problems later on in their lives with arthritis going into the ankle joints. My ex wife STILL wears high heels and has done so most of her life. She has absolutely no problems wearing runners or designer heels.
                            Last edited by Fairfax; Dec. 16, 2012, 08:46 PM.
                            The Elephant in the room

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
                              This is tiresome, and i dont get all het up about cordial's sound medical miracle horse.

                              The opinions of the AVMA, AAEP and AFA are against stacking horses and using action devices on them. Not just soring, but stacking and action devices.

                              Take you arguments to them, cordial. I have better stuff to read and to do.
                              I guess you are too busy researching all the bad about Padded horses, and I also am tiresome with your B.S. and I have better things to do then speak to you . Have a great Holiday, and keep those fingers busy on your computer.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                Cordial. Don't even bother. I had the same results with the anti slaughter group. MOST of them had never been to a slaughter plant for ongoing observation and only a couple had actually visited one. Everything was second hand or on old and or altered video.

                                Enjoy your horses...they don't want to hear that any TWH that has ever been shown is sound UNLESS it is by one of their supporters...i.e. Preacher.

                                Amazing how many will psycho babble you with their analysis or you and or your horse.

                                As an analysis...High Heels for women. MOST women who have warn them have arch and or calf problems later on in their lives with arthritis going into the ankle joints. My ex wife STILL wears high heels and has done so most of her life. She has absolutely no problems wearing runners or designer heels.
                                Thanks Fairfax for your positive post. I was at a Walking Horse Christmas last night, and every body is on the same page...they know change is coming and they are fine with that. They are all willing to do what it takes to move this industry forward. There was padded horse people and flat-shod people there, and also other breeds were represented.
                                By the way, 100% of the people there feel that H.R.6683 will not pass, but most everybody is okay if it does pass. Have a great Holiday, Fairfax!

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
                                  I guess I'm just a bit confused as to why you continue to try and change minds in this thread when it simply won't happen. As my grandpa used to say, you are pissing up a rope. Surely you know that.

                                  Are you saying, and do you honestly believe, that the stacks have no, none, zero, zip, zilch detrimental effects on a horse's joints? I don't think anyone is accusing you of actively soring your horse or even condoning it at the hands of your trainer. More like they are accusing you of denying the fact that the stacks in and of themselves pose a (rather unnecessary) risk to the horse's overall well-being. And to what end? Everything about the big lick gait goes against what a performance SHOULD be, as outlined by their own standards.

                                  One conclusion can be drawn from your statements...while your heart may be in the right place you are simply too caught up in playing with the big boys to see what you are involved in. If you truly were in it "for the breed" then I find it extremely hard to believe you'd chose to financially support such an industry. There are so, so many other ways and even other show venues where the TWH can be showcased that doesn't involve consorting with known abusers, funding their shows with your entry monies and turning a blind eye to abuse. No, it's an ego stroke. My World Champion this, my world champion that. See how much I love my horses, my world champions.

                                  World championships in the TWHBEA are all about politics anyway. They are bought and sold like a loaf of bread. If you really do own WC horses, well my opinion of you just got even lower because that means you are playing their game on their level.

                                  Anyway you have a lovely holiday season also.
                                  So your opinion of me just got lower??? Really...I will have you know that when we purchased the former world champion,that they had earned that title when other people owned them. I bought my flat-shod horse when he was five years old, and he was a world chanpion when he was a four year old. The padded horse was purchased when he was 6, and he was a world champion when he was 5. I don't even know the people who owned them when we bought them.
                                  That is very common with the people in the south...they campagin a horse, and once they win the top award, they sell and move on to the next prospect.
                                  What ever, what a nice thing to say ...... that "you think less of me then before".
                                  I use to ride and show saddlesbreds, and when I bought my flat-shod horse...he was the first walker I had ever ridden, and he got me in the show. He is the best money I ever spent, and has been a blast to own and ride.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                                    As an analysis...High Heels for women. MOST women who have warn them have arch and or calf problems later on in their lives with arthritis going into the ankle joints. My ex wife STILL wears high heels and has done so most of her life. She has absolutely no problems wearing runners or designer heels.
                                    Fairfax, I fear you may have argued against yourself here. You state that high heels cause joint issues in women (maybe men too, but they usually don't wear them enough ) But you seem to also argue that the equine equivalent does not cause chronic physical problems for horses: that stacks aren't related to soundness problems. Am I misunderstanding?

                                    And there are two critical differences between women in heels and horses wearing stacks: 1. The women make the choice themselves and are capable of changing the situation if they are in pain. 2. The woman can (and does) slip out of the shoes at least overnight and often may choose to during the day.

                                    As I've previously stated, in my opinion one of the very negative things about stacks is that the horse gets no break from them during the day, during the show, during the campaign, whatever the length of that is. Maybe I feel this way because I'm so uncomfortable in heels. If i had to carry 20% of my weight on my back at the same time? Impossible to feel good about that.
                                    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                                    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

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                                    • I have never argued they don't cause joint pain.

                                      I was pointing out that my ex did not suffer from any effects of high heels.
                                      I do not know if her legs and feet adapted OR they were formed in such a manner that it caused her no problems. She is over 60 and has worn them since she was 15

                                      I expect the same can be stated about SOME TWH's. That is why I have no reason to doubt Cordial. She (?) has owned them for a long time AND would have had noticed any soring over that period of time. There is no reason for anyone to question her honesty.

                                      I still wonder why there have not been any PUBLISHED studies by vets and under the direction of a university? That is where they study the horse against others and do follow them documenting problems OR dispelling urban legends.
                                      The Elephant in the room

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                                      • i been playing connect the dots again looking at Chad Way,

                                        he rode a horse named The Touch at the celebration 1994, does anyone remember this horse? is this horse still showing? if a stallion is gelded do the TWH paper get reprinted as gelded.just wondering.

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                                        • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                                          Cordial - If you want - just post pics of their feet/legs. It may or may not speak all that you need to say.
                                          Ding! Ding! Ding!
                                          It's only when a mosquito lands on your privates that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence. fb meme.

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