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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Originally posted by Malda View Post
    And my friend's alcoholic mother, who is in her 70's and still drinking, is doing fine. This does not mean that all alcoholics will live long and healthy just because one woman got lucky. Maybe your padded horse is okay (I doubt it). This does not mean all horses who wear stacks are not going to have any problems.
    What a stupid answer....comparing our horses to a drunken women. I'll admit that he is really, really in great shape for his age, and he has been blessed with good genes, but, but we have given the very BEST of care. Can you imagine that??
    We also have three old cats, one 20, one 19, and one 15. I wonder how that happened, and by the way we had a Lab live to be eighteen, and last but not least, by little trail morgan mare lived to be 35, and she lived with cushings for the last 7 years of her life. I wonder how all that happened....could it be...good CARE. I wonder??????? So doubt all you want, Malda!

    Comment


    • I don't think many people doubt BL horses get great care in other aspects of their life. But there is always that pesky business of all the damage the grotesque movement caused by those stacks can, and in all likelihood will, cause.

      You say yours is sound at 23. Great. Personally I'm not inclined to believe that a lifetime of being a padded horse hasn't in some way taken its toll on the horse's joints. I'm sure you don't care what I believe though

      And I think what Malda was trying to point out is that correlation does not equal causation. Even *IF* your horse has suffered no ill effects, none whatsoever, even ones that cannot be seen by the naked eye, from years of being a padded horse that sure as hell isn't the norm. There will always be that *one* that defies the odds...no matter what the subject at hand is.

      ETA: And our animals living to ripe old ages should be the norm, not the exception. It's great your animals have lived long lives but I hardly think it warrants a pat on the back. You're juts doing what any animal owner should be obligated to do. Food, vet care, shelter, prompt medical attention. It's not rocket science.

      Comment


      • As often happens - those who want the stacks on this thread will pishaw or twist a statement to be a comparative aimed at them personally when nothing of the sort was done. No one compared a horse to a drunken aunt or the holocaust. But some sure took the opportunity to get a little attention on the matter.

        To bring this a little more personal but speak to the topic I have a few questions for those who think the stacks should remain legal.

        What would you describe as a "legal" stack?

        What would be the legal dimensions of the foot that is attached to the stack?

        Don't act like this is hard or a trick question - I mean if you put a stack on your horse you must have some examples or an idea of what that stack should or should not be.

        Give us some dimensions.

        And while you are at it put a perspective of how did you arrive at that particular height of stack? How did the enhancement of the gait reach what you felt was the pinnacle for that horse? Did you ever see a stack that was too high? What was the effect on the gait?

        And tell us - will the stack work without the chain? Will the stack work with a reduction in height? or will it work with a reduction in weight?

        I mean are you willing to talk in specifics about this? Even on the old horses?

        Let us who so oppose what you do hear something to change our minds.

        I will be honest and say I will not agree with what you have to say - cause all along the way I felt the TWH could do without the chain and less stack. Other breeds found a limit - if the TWH could have put a limit on this - it would have saved a lot of grief.

        But that is just my opinion - you might just convince some others to like what you do. ANd isn't that why you are here? To defend what the new law is proposing to ban??
        from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

        Comment


        • Fairfax, thank you for your reply to my question. There has been some confusion on this thread with the terminology for stacked pad(s) and therapeutic (de minimus) pads. Each poster knows what he/ she means but sometimes readers don't.

          I've tried to be specific in my comments to exclude therapeutic pads of 3 mm or less from the banning discussion as long as there are inspections/ safeguards to identify other potential methods of artificial enhancements (i.e. pressure shoeing).

          Hurleycane, great questions. I'm interested in reading the answers.
          They don't call me frugal for nothing.
          Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
            I don't think many people doubt BL horses get great care in other aspects of their life. But there is always that pesky business of all the damage the grotesque movement caused by those stacks can, and in all likelihood will, cause.

            You say yours is sound at 23. Great. Personally I'm not inclined to believe that a lifetime of being a padded horse hasn't in some way taken its toll on the horse's joints. I'm sure you don't care what I believe though

            And I think what Malda was trying to point out is that correlation does not equal causation. Even *IF* your horse has suffered no ill effects, none whatsoever, even ones that cannot be seen by the naked eye, from years of being a padded horse that sure as hell isn't the norm. There will always be that *one* that defies the odds...no matter what the subject at hand is.

            ETA: And our animals living to ripe old ages should be the norm, not the exception. It's great your animals have lived long lives but I hardly think it warrants a pat on the back. You're juts doing what any animal owner should be obligated to do. Food, vet care, shelter, prompt medical attention. It's not rocket science.
            Quite frankly, I think that it has been more then just vet care,shelter, good medical attention....we get teased by other horse people that we go overboard with calling the vet, (our vet is probably the finest vet this side of the Mississippi river...his specialty is horses legs)...people come from all over the country to bring their horses to him. So we go beyond what the average person does, and quite frankly it pays off. Our trainer treats all her clients horses as they were her kids. TWH's are also known as being a pretty healthy breed, so blast away at me, but I know the truth as to why we have aged horses that still compete.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
              I don't think many people doubt BL horses get great care in other aspects of their life. But there is always that pesky business of all the damage the grotesque movement caused by those stacks can, and in all likelihood will, cause
              There is absolutely no proof or evidence that backs up your claim. None what's so ever.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BradleyDick View Post
                There is absolutely no proof or evidence that backs up your claim. None what's so ever.
                Yes there is. It is anecdotal. There are no university level studies that really address the issue one way or the other.

                Those of us who have rehabilitated former BL horses know the types of damage we've seen.

                Those of us who study equine biomechanics have come to the conclusion that damage is likely, short and long term, based upon the presence of the pads, themselves.

                Those of us who, in East TN, have known vets that refuse to provide routine care to barns with BL horses know why they've made this decision.

                So the statement that there is "no evidence" is false and misleading.

                G.
                Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                Comment


                • There is absolutely no proof or evidence that backs up your claim. None what's so ever.
                  Changing the angles of the entire horse...by lifting it's front end a few inches from it's normal stance...will most definitely affect the entire horse in some way or another. It will affect all differently and by different degrees, but it's impossible to change the structure, balance and angles of any living thing and not affect the joints, tendons and ligaments.

                  The "proof" of this is physics. Opinion and anecdotes do not change basic physics.

                  IOW, gravity is a theory. There isn't any solid proof behind gravity, hence it being termed a theory. It doesn't change the fact or affects of gravity.

                  I do very much hope that any regs or laws are worded and termed carefully and by a panel of unbiased experts in the required fields and doesn't end up an emotional knee-jerk reaction like many aspects of the equine world turn out. The problem with stacking pads/banding them is that there isn't any possible way to check for pressure shoeing. No way to see if there's an object or bruising from a recently removed object under the pads. Way too many morons take advantage of that. Here's hoping constructive idea-sharing can happen in how to address this without ridiculous and/or useless wording.

                  I think a reason this issue becomes so hotly contested is the current and past actions and reactions of the Big Lick crowd. No other discipline, despite also having issues, has the vast majority of the entrants leave a venue if the USDA shows up. Or has the lion's share of the champion classes DQed for breaking the rules.

                  At least in other disciplines...the participants agree there is abuse and they're just not comfortable rocking the boat over it. (and this is a huge issue IMO, way too many passive fools more interested in themselves than policing their own chosen sports) In Big Lick...participants never want to admit there is a problem. It's not a "few bad apples and cheaters" when 75% of the animals are loaded and towed off grounds as soon as the USDA pulls in. Or when 3/4 of the top class competitors are DQed. Or when everyone knows who's soring and stewarding up a storm and they're in the Hall Of Fame and only removed when the general public gets wind of the crap being swept under the Big Lick rugs. It's not a few bad apples. It's an entire diseased tree with only a very few non-wormy apples left on the ground under it.
                  You jump in the saddle,
                  Hold onto the bridle!
                  Jump in the line!
                  ...Belefonte

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                    As often happens - those who want the stacks on this thread will pishaw or twist a statement to be a comparative aimed at them personally when nothing of the sort was done. No one compared a horse to a drunken aunt or the holocaust. But some sure took the opportunity to get a little attention on the matter.

                    To bring this a little more personal but speak to the topic I have a few questions for those who think the stacks should remain legal.

                    What would you describe as a "legal" stack?

                    What would be the legal dimensions of the foot that is attached to the stack?

                    Don't act like this is hard or a trick question - I mean if you put a stack on your horse you must have some examples or an idea of what that stack should or should not be.

                    Give us some dimensions.

                    And while you are at it put a perspective of how did you arrive at that particular height of stack? How did the enhancement of the gait reach what you felt was the pinnacle for that horse? Did you ever see a stack that was too high? What was the effect on the gait?

                    And tell us - will the stack work without the chain? Will the stack work with a reduction in height? or will it work with a reduction in weight?

                    I mean are you willing to talk in specifics about this? Even on the old horses?

                    Let us who so oppose what you do hear something to change our minds.

                    I will be honest and say I will not agree with what you have to say - cause all along the way I felt the TWH could do without the chain and less stack. Other breeds found a limit - if the TWH could have put a limit on this - it would have saved a lot of grief.

                    But that is just my opinion - you might just convince some others to like what you do. ANd isn't that why you are here? To defend what the new law is proposing to ban??
                    We bought this Gelding from a trainer in Tenn., and he had a certain package on, and quite frankly he has had many new packages over the many years we have had him, but I leave all the details of the shoeing to the trainer and farrier...thats what I pay him for. I know that his shoeing has been basically the same for a long time...they find what works, and keep it that way But I will ask the trainer when I go out next week and ask her to write some measurements and report them to you.
                    By the way, I really don't give two hoots if you believe me or not.
                    Also By the way, do you think the H.R. 6388 is going to pass? Also I am sure by saying that we bought him from a trainer in Tenn. I will get bashed, and also he is a world champion padded gelding, and I am sure you will screech about that...

                    Comment


                    • if he's a WGC gelding than WHATS HIS NAMEnot barn name but the name on his TWH papers
                      or does someone other than me need to ask.

                      Comment


                      • WGC champion? Please explain how these horses are judged. They all look to be equally struggling to me. Thanks.
                        Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                        Comment


                        • Is a two pound shoe too heavily weighted?

                          How about three? Three and a half?

                          Four?

                          Define too heavy as we discuss 'weighted shoes'.

                          What is too heavy?

                          Comment


                          • I don't see knowing a horses name can make any difference. Why? Because you gave the Preachers wife a pass...self admitted that she sored. But, that was HER history

                            So if this gelding ever received a ticket...would not prove anything. That would be HIS history
                            The Elephant in the room

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fairfax View Post
                              I don't see knowing a horses name can make any difference. Why? Because you gave the Preachers wife a pass...self admitted that she sored. But, that was HER history

                              So if this gelding ever received a ticket...would not prove anything. That would be HIS history
                              This, coming from someone who always demands transparency especially on anonymous BB's. FF do you NEVER recognize your own hypocrisy?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
                                if he's a WGC gelding than WHATS HIS NAMEnot barn name but the name on his TWH papers
                                or does someone other than me need to ask.
                                Do you think that I would be so stupid to tell you his formal name on his papers?? Then you and your busy fingers would get get busy on Ipeds, find out who owned him and on and on and on. But I can tell you thing you WON'T find is a Federal or DQP ticket. I am sure that is what your goal is, so sorry to disappoint you, and I might add, my lite-shod is also a world champion.
                                You say you are too old to show, well I am wiling to bet that I am older then you and I still show.

                                Comment


                                • Oh look yall...hurley's questions were not answered. But then neither were mine. Somewhere in mine is NWHA's limit on a weighted shoe. So which one is ok in your book? 2? 3? 3.5? 4?

                                  What is an ok amount of weight on a weighted shoe? How heavy can a shoe be and be ok in your book?

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                                    This, coming from someone who always demands transparency especially on anonymous BB's. FF do you NEVER recognize your own hypocrisy?
                                    You appear to be confused. After OTHERS continually demanding that I back up every word I posted...I finally did turn about and started to copy them and you and say...Source? Proof?

                                    My point was...if the horse had ever had a sore application applied and it was documented that would not prove anything.

                                    The individual who was demanding the information is famous for not producing any proof for any of her statements or "facts" and she has NEVER challenged the Preacher on his more absurd statements...

                                    She is so desperate to cut down anyone who has presented a different side of a story...not about soring...but about stacks..

                                    Cordial has stated HER horses and HER animals reactions and how old they are. I am sure Cordial has also discovered that even if she had her vet come on and post that the horse had never had a lame day in its life....they would accuse the vet of lying or not really being a vet....Remember the late Don Heneke?
                                    The Elephant in the room

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by BradleyDick View Post
                                      There is absolutely no proof or evidence that backs up your claim. None what's so ever.
                                      I've bought up enough of your industry's cast-offs and, with the help of my vet and farrier, rehabbed them to know what I've seen going on in those legs. See below, G hits the nail on the head.

                                      Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                                      Yes there is. It is anecdotal. There are no university level studies that really address the issue one way or the other.

                                      Those of us who have rehabilitated former BL horses know the types of damage we've seen.

                                      Those of us who study equine biomechanics have come to the conclusion that damage is likely, short and long term, based upon the presence of the pads, themselves.

                                      Those of us who, in East TN, have known vets that refuse to provide routine care to barns with BL horses know why they've made this decision.

                                      So the statement that there is "no evidence" is false and misleading.

                                      G.

                                      Comment


                                      • Found the judging criteria for the performance division. : Bolded parts mine.


                                        Sorry, but anyone see any of this going on other than the "Must be shown in pads and braced tail" part.

                                        A. Performance Division
                                        (1) General Description, Rules, and Judging Criteria:
                                        A Performance Horse is a horse that has received training to accentuate the natural
                                        gaits associated with the breed. Such horses must perform with action devices to give
                                        an added dimension to their performance in the ring. Performance Horses must be
                                        shown in pads as required by the shoeing rules and regulations. Performance Horses
                                        are shown with braced tails, either Walking Horse or humane type. (Caps and Switches
                                        are optional).
                                        The Performance Horse should move freely in each gait and proceed in a smooth, fluid,
                                        rhythmic manner. At all gaits the horse should be flexed at the poll with muzzle slightly
                                        tucked Stiff front or rear leg motion, stumbling, bucking knees, lack of rhythmic timing,
                                        pointing or favoring a particular leg, necessity for excessive pumping or bumping of the
                                        horse, or any tendency to rack pace or other deviation from the true walk are not typical
                                        of the breed. The preceding mannerisms are not considered good form and shall be
                                        penalized in judging.

                                        Presentation. All entries should be presented clean, neatly trimmed, braided, and in
                                        good flesh presenting a healthy appearance. Each entry should be outfitted in clean and
                                        appropriate tack. The exhibitor of each entry should be neat in appearance, attired in
                                        properly fitted riding habits and shall conduct themselves in sportsman like manner at all
                                        times. A horse that has not performed all required gaits shall not be placed over a horse
                                        that has performed all gaits.
                                        (2) Attire
                                        (a.) English riding habit (saddle suit) underpasses on pants.
                                        (b.) Riding boots
                                        (c.) Spurs (Optional)
                                        (d.) English riding hat/helmets (Optional)
                                        (e.) Exhibitor’s hair must be neat and well groomed. Long hair styled so that the back
                                        number can be seen easily
                                        (f.) Whips/Crops not to exceed four (4) feet. (3) Tack
                                        (a.) English saddle
                                        (b.) Standard English bridle with single rein
                                        (c.) Gag bits with no shanks prohibited
                                        (d.) Severe bits are discouraged (Bleeding mouths should be penalized in final
                                        judging)
                                        (e.) Quick change bridles and reins are not permitted
                                        (4) Conformation. In general appearance, the Tennessee Walking Horse should have
                                        an intelligent look, neat head, well- shaped and pointed ears, clear and alert eyes, and a
                                        tapered muzzle. The neck should be long and graceful and the shoulders muscular and
                                        well sloping. The back should be short with good coupling at the loins. The animal
                                        should be deep in the girth and well ribbed and the chest should be of good proportion
                                        and width. The croup should be generally sloping and the hips well muscled.
                                        (5) Qualifying Gaits
                                        (a.) The Flat Walk should be a smooth four beat gait. The two factors that make
                                        this smooth gait distinctive to our breed are the overstride of the hind legs, along
                                        with a head shake. Overstride can be described as the hind foot sliding over the
                                        front tracks. While overstriding, the horse should have no vertical action with its
                                        hock, only forward motion. The head shake should be a vertical motion that is in
                                        perfect rhythm and cadence with the horses legs. The head shake, front legs,
                                        and rear legs should be in cadence/rhythm together. The forelegs should move
                                        straight, breaking at the knees and reaching forward in an elevated arc. The
                                        horse “rear end” should not be out behind, but up under itself. The horse should
                                        not have a tendency to pace, rack or trot. If he isn’t shaking he isn’t walking.

                                        (b.) The Running Walk is also a smooth, four beat gait. This is a faster gait where
                                        the horse “extends” his stride and covers more ground with each step. Excessive
                                        speed is not desirable.
                                        (c.) The Canter is a three beat gait. While traveling counter clockwise the horse
                                        should exhibit the left canter lead. The first beat of the left lead is the right rear
                                        leg, followed by the left rear and the right front together, ending with the left front.
                                        On the third beat, the horses left front and left rear legs will be ‘leading” the right.
                                        The reverse of this will be the right lead. The Tennessee Walking Horse has a
                                        distinct “rocking” motion while cantering, which has led it to being described as
                                        “The Rocking Chair Canter”. The canter should be smooth and straight on both
                                        leads comfortably in hand. Exaggerated “pumping” of the horse at the canter is
                                        not considered good form.
                                        Judges should value the innate grace and beauty of this breed instead of rewarding the
                                        manufactured extravagant and exaggerated gaits. This will facilitate a more rapid return
                                        to horsemanship and training devoid of intolerable abuses.

                                        One attendant may be allowed in the ring during the lineup in Amateur and Youth

                                        And why weren't these "trainers" who were fined consistently not suspended for life to begin with?

                                        (27) Pressure Shoeing. Shoeing a horse, or trimming a horse’s hoof in a manner that
                                        will cause such horse to suffer, or can reasonably be expected to cause such horse to
                                        suffer pain or distress, inflammation, or lameness when walking, trotting or otherwise
                                        moving is punishable by a lifetime suspension.
                                        Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                                        Comment


                                        • Don't know if anyone has posted this link yet. Hard to watch the videos.

                                          http://www.hphoofcare.com/lick.html
                                          Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                                          Comment

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