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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • I should also add that I have 14 American Saddlebreds. I have shown in all divisions with pads (as defined by the rule book) I have shown on a US and Canadian National Level. My family did own TWH's during the 50's however they were not successful in cattle work on such a large scale. The Arab/TB/Steel Dust were the hardiest.
    The Elephant in the room

    Comment


    • To the et alii:

      Like. To like something or someone is not always a result of a cunning or a device. Most often is is a resonance of something within us. I would say the same is true for a dislike - there comes a discord.

      It is a broader topic than can be whittled into a few words. None the less, what you write will speak of your core in a volume that no wordsmith mastery will ever distort.
      from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

      Comment


      • Originally posted by cordial View Post
        AAHHH, Mr. Preacher man, I am a little tired of you infering that I am not facing reality. You have no idea what you are talking about. I don't sore, pressure shoe, quick the hoof, or use a nerve cord, so I faced reality when we first got into this industry. I just happen to like a good sound padded horse to ride....no abuse, just a sound well-trained padded horse. I guess in your Holier-then Thou brain, you don't believe that there is such a thing and if they take the pads and chains...so be it. Life will still go on! So quit making statements about "how I think" and just be worried about your own reputation. That should take up all of your spare time.
        And therein lies part of the problem. A padded horse is perceived as abused because of what it does to their tendons, bones, & hooves.

        Comment


        • now that this personal hoop la is over.

          if a man can have 35 hpa violations be on a 10yr suspenion and have a 19,400 dollar civil action,and still choices to sore and ignor the rules what does this say to the TWH owners and trainers, it says ole hell screw the rules i want to win a WGC.

          it says tighten the rules make it a felony, make the practice JAIL time.stop giving probation to trainers slap their ass in Jail.fine and put the owner on probation.and most of all the list of violators needs to be published in the VOICE,on the TWHBEA web site,on FACEbook. it needs to be made PUBLIC

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
            And therein lies part of the problem. A padded horse is perceived as abused because of what it does to their tendons, bones, & hooves.
            Funny thing is our padded horse has no arthritis in his 23 year old body, and my 23 year old FLAT-SHOD has it in his hocks...Both in the show ring and still doing great. Please explain your statement, now Dispatcher??????

            Comment


            • Originally posted by cordial View Post
              Funny thing is our padded horse has no arthritis in his 23 year old body, and my 23 year old FLAT-SHOD has it in his hocks...Both in the show ring and still doing great. Please explain your statement, now Dispatcher??????
              Stacks are perceived by a lot of people, vets and farriers included, to cause damage to the horses' limbs. You may not see it, but the damage is there. Stacks are unnatural and alter weight bearing on all limbs.

              Perhaps because the TWH is a strudy breed, and the show horses don't do too much work, they can withstand this alteration for long periods. Or perhaps you just got lucky with an especially strong animal with especially good bone.

              Comment


              • we keep hearing my 23 yr old this and my 23 yr old that

                well what is that horse's name and what is that horse's show record.
                lets see some pictures cordail. of your horse in the show ring. and let us judge its way of going.

                ok you game,and before you jump on me i DON"T show anymore to old,but i still have gaited horses.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
                  Fairfax, if everyone who was soring/ causing significant and prolonged pain in horses by whatever means including via pressure shoes etc. stopped, there would be no issue.

                  There is no reason to go after people who have stopped such practices, and it's a specious argument to claim that. The point is that there are too many who continue such practices with impunity: some use what by any measure is outright cruelty. (What is the innocuous term used for beating a horse that reacts to pain so that it won't when tested? Why is that horse in pain in the first place?)

                  The horses can't speak for themselves, and the TWH is such a gentle breed that it doesn't fight back but accepts what is being done to it. Everyone is welcome to advocate for the horse, and those that have been there and back are perhaps among the best advocates.

                  And while I'm typing...Mr. Dick, you keep alluding to warmbloods being padded in a manner similar to gaited horses. As I'm not aware of that practice in the FEI sports could you please direct me to examples? (Beyond the 3mm or less therapeutic pad.)
                  I don't think I did allud to that. I beleive you are mistaken. I did and have stated that Arabians, Morgan's, American Saddlebreds, Hackeys, and National Show Horses All use pads, and I've seen from 1/4 and in h to 2" on them, I personally am FOR the use of normal sized pads. And I firmly believe there is daa out there that proves pads are and can be very bennifical to the horse when used properly and where the horse is shod properly.... I also beleive that a PainTrace should be used to make sure no horse in chronic pain would be allowed to show, this would include pressure shoeing and like forms... When I put on my horse show I used a former USDA VMO to make sure every horse flat and padded was SOUND you may think I'm part of the problem but I guanentee you that I want a solution just as much as anyone on this thread. We have to have sound horses and a level playing feild, but I do not want the idea of the divison to be gone.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                    To the et alii:

                    Like. To like something or someone is not always a result of a cunning or a device. Most often is is a resonance of something within us. I would say the same is true for a dislike - there comes a discord.

                    It is a broader topic than can be whittled into a few words. None the less, what you write will speak of your core in a volume that no wordsmith mastery will ever distort.

                    0 out of 4 members appreciated this post

                    See??? I love how 0 of 4 members like this! Tooooo funny! and TRUE!
                    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                    Comment


                    • I thumbed it down for the way you tortured your words into submission

                      Comment


                      • I apologize Mr. Dick. It was Fairfax who alluded to WB groups and pads. Thank you for correcting me.

                        Fairfax, would you enlighten me with examples?
                        They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                        Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

                        Comment


                        • LOL - Not surprising to hear a reverb in this room.
                          from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                          Comment


                          • Travel to Europe and you will see WB's on many circuits from junior dressge to eventing shod with pads. Eventing in particular as the courses cover many terrains and they have determined there is less injury to the frog and instep.

                            I saw them in Ireland, England, Spain, Italy, France, Belgium, Holland (Friesland) just to name a few.

                            They are used for theraputic, AND protection enhancers. Did you know there are also padded toe clips to "absorb" the impact of clipping rails?

                            Haven't been to Mexico, Brazil nor Argentina so will wait until their International teams turn up at Spruce Meadows and will ask if they use them...

                            There are MANY reasons pads are used "correctly"
                            The Elephant in the room

                            Comment


                            • And my friend's alcoholic mother, who is in her 70's and still drinking, is doing fine. This does not mean that all alcoholics will live long and healthy just because one woman got lucky. Maybe your padded horse is okay (I doubt it). This does not mean all horses who wear stacks are not going to have any problems.

                              Originally posted by cordial View Post
                              Funny thing is our padded horse has no arthritis in his 23 year old body, and my 23 year old FLAT-SHOD has it in his hocks...Both in the show ring and still doing great. Please explain your statement, now Dispatcher??????
                              In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

                              Comment


                              • Travel to Europe and you will see WB's on many circuits from junior dressge to eventing shod with pads. Eventing in particular as the courses cover many terrains and they have determined there is less injury to the frog and instep.

                                I saw them in Ireland, England, Spain, Italy, France, Belgium, Holland (Friesland) just to name a few.

                                They are used for theraputic, AND protection enhancers. Did you know there are also padded toe clips to "absorb" the impact of clipping rails?

                                Haven't been to Mexico, Brazil nor Argentina so will wait until their International teams turn up at Spruce Meadows and will ask if they use them...

                                There are MANY reasons pads are used "correctly"
                                Common sense dictates the thread being about stacked pads without any therapeutic purposes and over a certain height.

                                FWIW...you don't need to travel to Europe to see pads. Come on over to my place in New England, my QH is wearing snowball rim pads.

                                Everyone on here is aware of normal pad use for either therapeutic or performance enhancing. Everyone is aware that the tall stacked and banded pads on Big Lick horses are considered performance enhancing. At some point common sense has to kick in and not argue the inane for the sake of argument.

                                I would hope a ban is worded in a way to avoid stupidity.
                                You jump in the saddle,
                                Hold onto the bridle!
                                Jump in the line!
                                ...Belefonte

                                Comment


                                • I find it hard to believe that anyone with two brain cells to rub together and more than five minutes experience being around horses that get shod, cannot reconcile Big Lick stacks into a separate category from therapeutic pads. It's like comparing apples to geothermal tracking devices. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, they don't even remotely serve the same purpose and there isn't even the tiniest bit of resemblance between the two. They are separate entities entirely.

                                  Confusing one with the other, or even trying to put them in the same category...well it's akin to using a MAC-10 in a game of paintball.

                                  Comment


                                  • I've decided that Fairfax just likes to be a potstirrer and has nothing of merit to say.
                                    ~ Shannon Hayden ~

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by spookhorse View Post
                                      I've decided that Fairfax just likes to be a potstirrer and has nothing of merit to say.
                                      Ironically I'm not in the "Crucify Leo/Fairfax" crowd. His (lack of) bedside manner aside I've found some of his viewpoints on other subjects rather enlightening and well thought-out. At minimum he's provoked me into considering other points of view on occasion especially on some of the info he's put out there regarding slaughter. I simply don't think he's the stark-raving lunatic many others seem to believe he is, I've seen him make valuable contributions to conversations on this board (although much seems to be lost on the masses due to his delivery) and I won't dismiss posts simply because his name is attached to them. But.......

                                      Arguing that BL stacks and therapeutic pads are mutually inclusive...that's just ludicrous. They simply are NOT the same thing. No way there could ever be justification for BL stacks to be used for therapeutic purposes just as a therapeutic pad could never evoke the movement a stack does.

                                      *Could* pads get lumped into a ban on stacks? I guess anything is possible. Lawmakers do stupid stuff especially when legislating activities they know nothing about. It defies common sense though. I think it is highly unlikely that would happen, surely the veterinary associations involved in this movement along with other various associated interested groups would rectify that before any law got put into effect.

                                      I'm just not buying into the "Lose one, we'll lose them all" argument.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by GaitedGloryRider View Post
                                        I find it hard to believe that anyone with two brain cells to rub together and more than five minutes experience being around horses that get shod, cannot reconcile Big Lick stacks into a separate category from therapeutic pads. It's like comparing apples to geothermal tracking devices. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other, they don't even remotely serve the same purpose and there isn't even the tiniest bit of resemblance between the two. They are separate entities entirely.

                                        Confusing one with the other, or even trying to put them in the same category...well it's akin to using a MAC-10 in a game of paintball.
                                        The Mythbusters have a famous quote: "Anything worth doing is worth over doing."

                                        This works in their unique combination of science, pop culture, and entertainment. It's a Very Bad Idea in shoeing equines.

                                        Aristotle tell us: "One swallow does not make a spring, nor does one fine day." If he could figure this out 2500 years ago we should be able to figure it out now.

                                        I can't think of a branch of medical or veterinary science that doesn't know the difference between a therapeutic therapy and an abusive therapy. There's an entire industry in sports built around the concept of "chemical performance enhancement." The same drugs, say steroid injections, that are very beneficial to people suffering musculo-skeletal pain are also easily abused by those seeking to build larger muscle masses. We continue to use the therapeutic injections as we penalize the abusive uses. It's quite possible to write legally enforceable regulations that address the abuse but leave the medication available for legitimate uses.

                                        Of course the "cheaters" will always look for the "main chance" to avoid the penalty but gain the benefit. Rules don't guarantee behavior.

                                        Fairfax is wrong is his analysis, but he raises a valid point on the issues of "drawing the line" and "who will draw the line."

                                        G.
                                        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                                        Comment


                                        • Maybe some posters i.e. Spookhorse should start to re-read ALL of the posts starting at the beginning. You will see where there WERE debates as to theraputic compared to overstack. The result?: Posters CLEARLY STATED ALL PADS, any action enhancement i.e. rollers chains stretchies etc EVEN FOR TRAINING at a farm should be outlawed.

                                          Common sense?????

                                          Gaited Glory...you sound like a reasonable individual. ... There are not a lot of brain cells out there ....especially in the groups i.e. government reps where they go with the flow....all it takes is for the "Holy" Roy to say...get rid of ALL devices for ANY reason...remove ALL STACKS (and breeders will then have to breed for sounder horses in any breed) and watch what happens.

                                          Anyone who breeds and shows dogs actively sees how laws, to outlaw puppy farmers..catch EVERYONE ELSE in its web.

                                          I understand theraputic versus stacks. I have watched in the Arabian divisions where "some" want more and more pads...however USEF sticks to its guns and says no.

                                          After reading a lot of hysteria on this forum...it is easy to see how lawys with the HSUS input, supported by a non horse owner Roy and a person in power (politician) not knowing what a pad is..but knowing if he outlaws THEM he will maybe be re-elected...well..you get the picture.

                                          That is why one must be so very very careful

                                          Tighten existing laws AND enforce them. Change expectations to "You WILL BE CAUGHT and CHARGED"...If you are involved with TWH's in your area...become involved....be part of a solution. It is very easy for everyone to be an authority on a website. It is another thing to get people off their duffs and into the ground level ring.

                                          The fight must become one point at a time. SORING is the start. Get that under control and you might be encouraged by the drop off in the BL division and therefore a change in stack usage.
                                          The Elephant in the room

                                          Comment

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