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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Jennie Jackson got a ticket "not so long ago" Fairfax? When and where?

    Comment


    • Fairfax, if everyone who was soring/ causing significant and prolonged pain in horses by whatever means including via pressure shoes etc. stopped, there would be no issue.

      There is no reason to go after people who have stopped such practices, and it's a specious argument to claim that. The point is that there are too many who continue such practices with impunity: some use what by any measure is outright cruelty. (What is the innocuous term used for beating a horse that reacts to pain so that it won't when tested? Why is that horse in pain in the first place?)

      The horses can't speak for themselves, and the TWH is such a gentle breed that it doesn't fight back but accepts what is being done to it. Everyone is welcome to advocate for the horse, and those that have been there and back are perhaps among the best advocates.

      And while I'm typing...Mr. Dick, you keep alluding to warmbloods being padded in a manner similar to gaited horses. As I'm not aware of that practice in the FEI sports could you please direct me to examples? (Beyond the 3mm or less therapeutic pad.)
      They don't call me frugal for nothing.
      Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

      Comment


      • Who says we want to see them all in jail? Jackie McConnell deserves it for his wholesale abuse in beating those horses so violently, its all there on video. I'm certain it happens in other sore barns, but once you take out the soring, there is no need for stewarding. If *any* trainer puts the pads, chains, and chemicals away and chooses to go the sound route with their horses, certainly I can forgive them... If they honestly stay sound trainers and aren't blowing smoke like they do now.

        Do you not understand that Jennie Jackson feels that her penance for having been a sore trainer is to work towards resolving the issue, despite the hatred it brings to herself and her family? Why am I going to reviled her? She and Nate have brought more visibility to the soring issue than anyone else I can think of. Who cares if anyone thinks its for publicity, its doing the job!
        Last edited by spookhorse; Dec. 12, 2012, 02:36 PM.
        ~ Shannon Hayden ~

        Comment


        • here is the poop,at the CELEBRATION this yr Chad Way had a horse there so lame it could hardly walk,Ironworks Tin Man Chad Way was on a 5yr suspenion from the USDA.
          David Howard did not care Dr. Mullins did not care Dr Measdows did not care WHY because the Big LICK performance PEOPLE don't think the LAW pertains to THEM,but they are the reason twh are being sored they are the reason zip ties are being used to steward a horse.

          So don't point a finger at someone who has changed and spoke out, told what the BL people do to get that ugly gait.the Jackson's have opened that window and now the light of truth is shining in those DARK ugly BARNS of the performance TWH. So if you are not here to help stop the practice of soring maybe you need to go.

          Comment


          • http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_wel...DQ_Nov2012.pdf

            look at this folks,Timothy W Holley a real cool dude to some of you NOT

            Comment


            • Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
              here is the poop,at the CELEBRATION this yr Chad Way had a horse there so lame it could hardly walk,Ironworks Tin Man Chad Way was on a 5yr suspenion from the USDA.
              David Howard did not care Dr. Mullins did not care Dr Measdows did not care WHY because the Big LICK performance PEOPLE don't think the LAW pertains to THEM,but they are the reason twh are being sored they are the reason zip ties are being used to steward a horse.

              So don't point a finger at someone who has changed and spoke out, told what the BL people do to get that ugly gait.the Jackson's have opened that window and now the light of truth is shining in those DARK ugly BARNS of the performance TWH. So if you are not here to help stop the practice of soring maybe you need to go.
              Perhaps The Jacksons will be voted into the WalkingHorse Hall of Fame for their good deeds! NOT

              Comment


              • Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
                http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_wel...DQ_Nov2012.pdf

                look at this folks,Timothy W Holley a real cool dude to some of you NOT

                Is he the one who put the tie on the gum? Lordy did they hit him with a fine!!!
                from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  New Poll Shows Voters in Tennessee and Kentucky Overwhelmingly Support Bill to Strengthen the Horse Protection Act

                  http://www.humanesociety.org/news/pr...rt-121212.html
                  from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                  Comment


                  • I have heard about the ticket in other circles as well. Not sure what it was for. I too think it would be best for Jennie Jackson to explain her recent ticket - I would not ask her husband to do so. I have no idea what it was for - might have been a wrong shoe or an argument with a DQP. I would be pretty sickened if it was for soring.

                    And since this thread does sample a bit of how folks feel on a topic, I will say this:

                    It was my opinion some time ago and it still is my opinion that anyone who has sored a horse should not be considered for any official place within the TWH horse community - specially shows. I realize this would mean most TWH folks with any years on them would have to sit on the bench.

                    THAT would be a good thing. A very good thing to get more realistic people and trainers in those top seats.

                    When I voiced this "elimination" opinion, people brought up that Jennie Jackson sored horses. Well - it does not change my opinion on the elimination matter. Participate under scrutiny with no official position should not be alien to her and I think that is what she has done. Well, to my knowledge any way. She is participating - not officiating or acting as a board rep etc.

                    I commend Jennie Jackson not so much for her admittance of such a crime - but that I think she is making efforts to get things right. I sure commend her desire to see the stacks and chains and bands etc go away. And I commend her commitment to keep herself in the ring and take the hits for her past transgressions.

                    So it is up to her to discuss this ticket or not.
                    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                    Comment


                    • http://www.justice.gov/usao/tnm/pres...1/12-9-11.html

                      Chris Zahnd was the trainer of the zip tied horse. I don't know what Timothy Holley did, I'm just finding the same stuff over and over on him....he showed a sore horse but I'm not clear on the details.

                      http://www.dm.usda.gov/oaljdecisions...PA_06-0005.pdf

                      Comment


                      • “Haters are confused admirers” ~~~ Fairfax, has a point and I have a response for him/her.

                        At one time there was a man, first recognized in the Bible as holding the coats for people as they stoned the disciple Stephen, we later hear of the same man as he was traveling down the Damascus Road to persecute more Christians His name was Saul of Tarsus, he had, as we read a life changing event which turned his life around, his name was changed to Paul, who we know to be one of the prominent writers in the New Testament.

                        Let’s do a survey, who makes the best experts, most credible witness on a subject, those who have read about it? How bout those who heard about a subject? How bout the person who studies about a subject? Now let’s try this one, one who lived it, did it, knows it and understands it?

                        Fairfax, Cordial, and Katerine are three that I am aware of that are having a hard time letting reality become a truism in their lives, they will go to just about any length they can to; skew, distort, change or dismiss the facts as they are disseminated by authorities, professionals, or people with firsthand knowledge of the subject.

                        Remember when, actually, some people still believe, and will try to convince you that The Holocaust never happened? Despite OVERWELMING, incontrovertible evidence that the truism is that it did indeed happen.?

                        Of the over 40 years of Jennie’s life, and being a trainer in TWHs, she has never received a HIO or HPA ticket for soring. After we went in the WGC Class at The Celebration, we went to a WHOA (Flat Shod & Licker HIO) Versatility Show in Harriman, TN. Jennie entered our stallion in a Model class that had 2 entries in it, both our horses.

                        When she returned to the DQP area for post class check, the DQP was inside leaning over the rail watching the show. She had one of our customer wait there for him, as she left to get in the next class.

                        She waited, he did not show so she went and tied him up to the trailer, to go watch the class…the DQP approached Jennie a couple classes later with a ticket for failure to return for post inspection, which we refused to sign.

                        We paid the over $300.00 to appeal the ticket, it was such a travesty with the 3 to 2 vote of the Shelbyville panel, that The Director of NHSC, returned our fee with his apology.

                        No one heard of this because as juicy piece of potentially damaging evidence against Jennie this would of have been, everyone knew this was sham, Lickers, did not take advantage of this credibility crushing information because like Fairfax here, it showed their pettiness…

                        Now for the record Fairfax, I have never gotten a ticket, so does her ordeal apply to me also?

                        I always said that now she is eligible for Trainer of the Year, because there has never been a trainer of the year that did not have a HPA ticket. LOL! NOR has there ever been a Flat Shod Trainer of the year ~~~~ whatdya know about that!

                        Fairfax, my name is Nathanael Jackson, I live in Cookeville, TN ~~~ who are you behind this screen name? So, tell me, do you think that this lil tidbit furthered your cause? Discredited us? Make people wanna turn from us and the cause? ~~~ Or do you think it may have exposed the pettiness, sourgrapes, and desperation of your cause? Just curious.

                        John Newton who wrote the famous hymn "Amazing Grace", was a Slave Ship Captain ~~~ who told his story through song, would you attack him also?



                        Nathanael "The Preacher" Jackson

                        Comment


                        • Today I posted the name and case link re: Chris Zahnd, the
                          trainer' who trussed up the zip tied horse. I also posted a link to the case I could find regarding Timothy Holley.


                          Now I am equated with those who say the Holocaust didn't happen?



                          What?

                          I don't own, train, promote, or otherwise have any involvement in padded horses.
                          The only horse I've personally witnessed being sored was a Lite Shod SSH- It is my opinion that the quest for bigger/badder/deeper moving horses means there is soring in all the divisions of walking horses- both TWH and SSH. I think we catch more padded horses but I am concerned the issue is much bigger than just padded horses. I'm not really sure what it is that I am denying exists: Santa maybe?



                          I don't hate you, Nathaniel Jackson. I don't hate your horse, either, that would be silly. I've said time and again he is obviously a kind and a willing horse. Those are compliments. My opinion of you is pretty simple and not very exciting or earth shattering: I just don't see you as worthy of the fawning hero worship. That's about the depth and breadth of the matter, not much there to get cranked up about. I'm sure you'll survive

                          Comment


                          • Mr Jackson - you sure did not have to do that. But I am so glad you did set it straight on the forum.

                            I pretty much turn away from in-flamers anymore. The stew they stir is not fit for consumption. They sure do simmer away.

                            Not you. You pursue dreams and walk the earth to make them happen.

                            I am liking what the likes of you are doing to educate the voting public. The survey that WITW linked sure shows your work is making a difference.

                            Hats off again to you Preacher.

                            One day to meet.
                            Last edited by hurleycane; Dec. 12, 2012, 05:16 PM.
                            from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                            Comment


                            • that has put an end to that. so lets get back on the subject of ending Soring.

                              support the HR 6388, that will help stop the soring or should i say make those who sore and abuse the TWH think twice. add some jail time heavy fines to trainers and OWNERS.

                              get tough with this, make it all public send out a list of HPA violations to the Voice that has to be published every month. or some other publication.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Preacher View Post
                                “Haters are confused admirers” ~~~ Fairfax, has a point and I have a response for him/her.

                                At one time there was a man, first recognized in the Bible as holding the coats for people as they stoned the disciple Stephen, we later hear of the same man as he was traveling down the Damascus Road to persecute more Christians His name was Saul of Tarsus, he had, as we read a life changing event which turned his life around, his name was changed to Paul, who we know to be one of the prominent writers in the New Testament.

                                Let’s do a survey, who makes the best experts, most credible witness on a subject, those who have read about it? How bout those who heard about a subject? How bout the person who studies about a subject? Now let’s try this one, one who lived it, did it, knows it and understands it?

                                Fairfax, Cordial, and Katerine are three that I am aware of that are having a hard time letting reality become a truism in their lives, they will go to just about any length they can to; skew, distort, change or dismiss the facts as they are disseminated by authorities, professionals, or people with firsthand knowledge of the subject.

                                Remember when, actually, some people still believe, and will try to convince you that The Holocaust never happened? Despite OVERWELMING, incontrovertible evidence that the truism is that it did indeed happen.?

                                Of the over 40 years of Jennie’s life, and being a trainer in TWHs, she has never received a HIO or HPA ticket for soring. After we went in the WGC Class at The Celebration, we went to a WHOA (Flat Shod & Licker HIO) Versatility Show in Harriman, TN. Jennie entered our stallion in a Model class that had 2 entries in it, both our horses.

                                When she returned to the DQP area for post class check, the DQP was inside leaning over the rail watching the show. She had one of our customer wait there for him, as she left to get in the next class.

                                She waited, he did not show so she went and tied him up to the trailer, to go watch the class…the DQP approached Jennie a couple classes later with a ticket for failure to return for post inspection, which we refused to sign.

                                We paid the over $300.00 to appeal the ticket, it was such a travesty with the 3 to 2 vote of the Shelbyville panel, that The Director of NHSC, returned our fee with his apology.

                                No one heard of this because as juicy piece of potentially damaging evidence against Jennie this would of have been, everyone knew this was sham, Lickers, did not take advantage of this credibility crushing information because like Fairfax here, it showed their pettiness…

                                Now for the record Fairfax, I have never gotten a ticket, so does her ordeal apply to me also?

                                I always said that now she is eligible for Trainer of the Year, because there has never been a trainer of the year that did not have a HPA ticket. LOL! NOR has there ever been a Flat Shod Trainer of the year ~~~~ whatdya know about that!

                                Fairfax, my name is Nathanael Jackson, I live in Cookeville, TN ~~~ who are you behind this screen name? So, tell me, do you think that this lil tidbit furthered your cause? Discredited us? Make people wanna turn from us and the cause? ~~~ Or do you think it may have exposed the pettiness, sourgrapes, and desperation of your cause? Just curious.

                                John Newton who wrote the famous hymn "Amazing Grace", was a Slave Ship Captain ~~~ who told his story through song, would you attack him also?



                                Nathanael "The Preacher" Jackson
                                AAHHH, Mr. Preacher man, I am a little tired of you infering that I am not facing reality. You have no idea what you are talking about. I don't sore, pressure shoe, quick the hoof, or use a nerve cord, so I faced reality when we first got into this industry. I just happen to like a good sound padded horse to ride....no abuse, just a sound well-trained padded horse. I guess in your Holier-then Thou brain, you don't believe that there is such a thing and if they take the pads and chains...so be it. Life will still go on! So quit making statements about "how I think" and just be worried about your own reputation. That should take up all of your spare time.

                                Comment


                                • thanks hurly its for our eyes only
                                  Last edited by aarpaso; Dec. 12, 2012, 09:33 PM.

                                  Comment


                                  • . I am reconsidering my view of Mr Irby and TWHBEA. But they need to get rid of the stacks and chains - like yesterday!!!!
                                    Last edited by hurleycane; Dec. 12, 2012, 10:12 PM.
                                    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                    Comment


                                    • B

                                      Originally posted by hurleycane View Post
                                      I am reconsidering my view of Mr Irby and TWHBEA. But they need to get rid of the stacks and chains - like yesterday!!!!
                                      and here is the paste:
                                      Maybe this does stir the pot but it's Not new and not secret but here is some interesting insight....

                                      Letter Regarding TWSHO Reform Efforts

                                      Dear Frank:

                                      Please find the attached letter. You are welcome to share with your board or other parties of interest.

                                      Thanks,
                                      Marty

                                      ----------------------

                                      Marty,

                                      Thank you for the letter regarding TWSHO reforms.

                                      As you know TWSHO had an Industry forum meeting where we discussed not only the accomplishments of TWSHO in its reform efforts but also a structure and process to ensure an organization that could be recognized and utilized to move the Industry forward as it confronts the challenges it faces today as well as in the future. I’ve attached a document that sets out some of those thoughts. In addition TWSHO is working on continuing the reform initiatives of swabbing, reviewing a blood testing program and believe the Industry also needs to look at a pressure shoeing initiative. Several of these will require input from organizations outside the TWH Industry and we have begun the process to discuss these matters.

                                      We were disappointed that none of your Board and very few EC members could attend but hopefully the attached outline provides some information as to what was discussed. While the attached provides a good high level outline of those discussions we also talked about the continuing need to support this Industry with the political, press and other items TWSHO has started and continues to provide. Some of those accomplishments include;

                                      Implementation of Swabbing
                                      Meetings on the Hill with several Members of Congress – most recently Congressman Whitfield and Congresswoman Black
                                      Placed Op-Eds in Chattanooga and Tennessee papers
                                      Requested an Independent Vet at Celebration
                                      Mandatory Penalty lawsuit – aimed at the unconstitutional items
                                      HR 6388 – developed an outline and action plan
                                      Numerous Political fundraisers
                                      Partnering/Hiring of Purple Strategies – filed over 38 press releases since June
                                      Raised over $500,000 for the above

                                      While we believe this is a good start we have been continually and almost universally told – you need One Organization and One Voice. And that Organization must manage the inspections, penalties and reforms including establishing a Judging standard for a socially acceptable gait and horse. This is from well respected veterinarians, the USDA, the AAEP, AVMA, Members of Congress, and other stakeholders.

                                      I look forward t talking to you on Saturday morning.


                                      Frank Eichler

                                      -------------------------------------

                                      Since our meeting on November 3rd I have been wondering what the TWHBEA position was on the TWSHO ONE Voice One Organization concept. I realize you have had a lot going on but your letter today clarified your position – no fricking way, or not in this lifetime, or go to hell – all my perception and opinion of course.

                                      As far as your One Voice pitch today you are missing the critical requirements to lead this Industry. As the AAEP, USDA, AVMA and others have said – you need one HIO, inspection protocol, penalty matrix etc to ensure soring is eliminated. Since TWHBEA wants nothing to do with enforcement, inspections, reforms or the hard, in the ditch work that must be done to re-establish this horse and Industry why would anyone want or believe you should be the One Voice.

                                      Your comments below are a travesty;

                                      [red]Our industry has very little record of being proactive, and has become far too reactive. In the upcoming days you will see the beginnings of a new program at TWHBEA, under our Horse Shows Division that will start the process of rewarding those who are doing the right thing, and those who are showing sound horses. This program is long overdue. The concept of "The Champions Cup" which has been approved in concept by our Horse Show Committee and our current EC will be presented at the upcoming meetings.[/red]

                                      What you are suggesting is that TWHBEA will deliver the good news and let someone else take care of the tough work. Your organizations yearly musical chairs is a fundamental reason you should not be the One Voice. No one is really in charge, the message changes on a regular basis and the lack consistency is embarrassing.

                                      I have tried to respectfully work with you for over 2 years – thanks for not getting back to me as you said you would. That lack of professional courtesy along with your latest grandstanding letter confirms my understanding of TWHBEA. It should NOT be supported nor ever allowed to be the One Voice!!

                                      Stunningly disappointing

                                      Frank Eichler

                                      ---------------------------------

                                      Frank,

                                      My only problem with your letter is that I didn't write it and sign it...it is dead on the money.

                                      My friend, talking about a new registry is over - it's time to start one!!

                                      David Howard
                                      -------------------------------------

                                      Mr. Eichler, Mr. Howard, and Mr. McGartland:

                                      In response to your emails today, first let me say that I responded to Jeffrey Howard, TWSHO Board Member, a few weeks ago and told him that the TWHBEA EC decided not to take any action in regards to the TWSHO presentation from Mr. Eichler to the TWHBEA EC on November 3, 2012. If you need, I will provide a copy of that email, and apologize if the message was not relayed to you. During my last month of office, I have had thousands of emails, calls, and requests, and have just not had the time to respond to every person on every issue since we have 10,000 members and a staff of around 10 people.

                                      Secondly, Mr. Eichler, you are dead wrong about TWHBEA and the musical chairs. Would you say the same about the United States Congress? TWHBEA is the only organzation within our industry that has the structure, longevity, and both National & International representation from members around the world. TWHBEA is the breed registry that was established in 1935, and is older than any other entity, or horse show within this breed. Why would TWHBEA not be the "One Voice" for our industry?

                                      Mr. Howard, since you seen to be such an advocate for starting some new type of registry and since you sit on both The Celebration, S.H.O.W., and Walking Horse Report Boards, & since your son sits on the TWSHO & FAST Boards, I can only ask will you all no longer be supporting Tennessee Walking Horses? Will you be establishing a new breed that you feel does not fall under the Horse Protection Act, or the potential HR 6388 Amendment? Will The Celebration no longer be crowning the Tennessee Walking Horse World Grand Champion, and respective World Champions? I would ask that you promptly answer these questions, so that the TWHBEA International Board, and TWHBEA General Membership that meet this Friday & Saturday will make the time during our meetings to discuss TWHBEA's possibilities in moving forward to crown a Tennessee Walking Horse World Grand Champion, and respective World Champions.

                                      Mr. McGartland, since you have expressed your displeasure in the forward movement of the proposed TWHBEA Champions Cup, which would only name a champion that had no HIO/HPA Violations by points based on the number of times they show, then what do you propose our industry should do to reward trainers, owners, and exhibitors who do not tolerate the practice of soring? How else can such a champion be measured? How else can we assure our membership of 10,000, and the general public that we are only crowning champions as a breed registry that are 100% sound?

                                      Quite honestly I am in my last few days as President and care little about what "the status quo" at TWSHO, SHOW, or The Celebration thinks. My loyalty is to TWHBEA and no other organization. My loyality is to the soundness and longevity of this breed which will succeed and thrive long after you three have gone. My vision is for my generation and for generations to come, it is not for the status quo, nor is it for "just another celebration" as many have placed a bandaid over for year after year.

                                      Since the neagtive responses that came from the three of you were directed toward me, the TWHBEA EC, and TWHBEA as a whole, and were in the tone and context they were, then I can only truly know one thing: WE AT TWHBEA MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT!

                                      Rome once fell, and I believe you see yourselves standing above a city in ruins. TWHBEA is the leader, always has been the leader, and always will be the leader no matter what other breed or registry you start.

                                      Ciao,
                                      Marty
                                      -------------------------------------

                                      After sleeping on your response let me try one other thought.

                                      Please compare the TWHBEA response to the AAEP/AVMA release and the TWSHO release yesterday. The TWSHO draft was shared with some of the members of the organizations that had indicated a willingness to participate in the One Organization, One Voice, One HIO, including PRIDE, WHTA, WHOA, TWSHO Board and others, percolated for several days and after their input was received it was published.

                                      The power of the collective feedback and input from everyone was a comprehensive response that didn't just disagree with the equine Organizations but clearly outlined numerous areas of concern including for their own vets and the horse itself.

                                      Why wouldn't TWHBEA be part of the solution instead of standing on it's own and only being interested in itself as you so clearly stated?

                                      Frank
                                      from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

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                                      • Original Poster

                                        curiouser and curiouser.
                                        from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

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                                        • I am one of the few who has NEVER hidden behind the name. Just ask anyone on HSUS threads...Leo Maxwell Coutts, Alberta Canada and I have been involved with horses all of my life...Family immigrated to Canada 1876 bringing horses with them. Raised Arabians until about ten years ago. We lost so many foals to SCIDS and at that time there was the opinion it was bacteria and not genetic (carriers and non)

                                          I am very tall, 6'5" and I decided I would go to a breed where my height would not be a disadvantage. I have shown on a national scale dogs and horses most of my life.

                                          I am 62 years of age and nothing wrong with my nose nor my vision.

                                          Equating a member of your family to a Saint is a bit of a stretch. It is also self serving and is a technique used to try an influence those "fence sitters" who may also lack many skills to identify with their religious roots, and therefore give the orator a "pass"

                                          Your stories, rather than written to enlighten are so filled with self serving propoganda that they can not be viewed with timeless classics.

                                          When you speak of scew and distort, I believe you would be well served to re-read your own writings. Since Jeannie was prolific on her discussions about gaited dressage and her unique training techniques, I am surprised she is
                                          not allowed to post--or is it she just chooses not to?

                                          My support of a cause is determined by the validity and process. I believe the anti soring cause is just. I do not approve of many of the posters who did (go back and you will find them) not believe anyone who had ever sored should ever have a pass. My comment was for them...to either justify or now say...Jeannie should not be brushed with the same color of paint as "others"

                                          Hater? hardly...I hate actions...deeds...not the sinner.

                                          Holocaust? My family ??? You don't deny what family members suffered and died from.

                                          You try and present your self in a masterful manner...

                                          Some will say yes...I say....self serving clap trap.
                                          The Elephant in the room

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