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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
    He certainly is struggling to support all his weight on that rear end. That's not an engine, that's a STRUGGLE.
    Struggleing all around is right.

    I can not find it now - but sometime ago I saw a video of a very strangely muscled TWH - a Chestnut I believe. He started out barefoot with a rider on. WHen he moved off he seemed stiff and unsure - not very well gaited in that he was very heavy on the fore. Then they added stacks and weights and the chain and he did his squat and spread.

    And I knew why he was so stiff and off in his barefoot gait.

    I bring it up cause I heard sometime ago from folks who like to stack em that the stacking thing started NOT as something you would show in a ring. Instead it was a training option (like a dumb Jockey would be a biting option). Once the undesired gait was broken up with the stack or weight - they took em off to train. It was not initially meant to be how the horse was ridden and kept.

    But as to the chestnut I referenced - the loss of gait and need for retraining when barefoot was a good example of why the entire stack em chain em thing needs to go. It does neither the gait nor the horse any good.

    IMO it becomes a form of hobble.

    Looking at the above video, I see lots of unnecessary torque on those stifles and hocks at a time when the horse needs to be let to grow mature and strengthen... why blinker him? why do that to his tail? on top of the horrid bit and spurs??? All that crap on the front legs - pure ignorance.

    Really sad stuff being done to a nice horse.

    Soon it will all be illegal.
    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

    Comment


    • I have a five year old colt that has Midnight Sun just three back on his papers. He's not a big horse (though he has a half sister that is huge) but he's built short backed and stout, just like his sire.

      http://www.slushcreekwalkers.com/Del...ightLegend.htm

      I won't even pretend to know much about gaiting or the industry, as you can see I'm out here in Montana where we mostly just enjoy our TWH.
      “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey

      Comment


      • may have to go west to find that tru old bloodline,
        very nice horses and country Cowboymom thank you!

        see folks they are still around,tru walkers.

        Comment


        • I should be clear, that website is my colt's sire! But yes they do have great horses and I'm very lucky to have my colt that looks so much like Gabe...
          “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            More on District Attys in Tennessee. What are they going to do ? Good answer would be : thier job.

            http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2...ush-continues/
            from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by WalkInTheWoods View Post
              More on District Attys in Tennessee. What are they going to do ? Good answer would be : thier job.

              http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2...ush-continues/
              The job of the District Atty. Gen. is to prosecute cases brought by the various law enforcement agencies in their District. It is not, generally, to go on "patrol" looking for new work; that comes quickly enough.

              Ask me how I know?

              There is also a critical difference between TN Law and the HPA.

              Under Sec. 39-14-202(a)(5) it is unlawful to sore a horse using chemical or mechanical means. It is not an offense to transport, sell, exhibit, or otherwise posses and use the animal.

              Under the HPA it's unlawful to do any of the above.

              The local DA must plead and prove each and every element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt. Unless you've got video, a confession, or other direct or strong circumstantial evidence as to WHO did the deed (applied the chemicals, etc.) then you will likely not get a conviction.

              The Feds must only prove that the animal was sored and then exhibited by a person. Under the HPA the person who actually applied the soring materials is irrelevant. They must prove who exhibited (or transported, etc.) beyond a reasonable doubt but the testimony of a USDA VMO or DQP (or auctioneer or truck driver or etc.) would likely carry the burden of proof. If they do that the person is liable under the HPA. Others may also be liable if the U.S. Attorney can prove complicity in the crime.

              Put another way, both prosecutors must prove their cases beyond a reasonable doubt but the proof for the Feds. will be much easier to obtain than for the state DA.

              And, to put this in context, most of the Walker activity is in rural counties where there is lots of competition for very limited prosecutorial assets. If the DA has to choose between prosecuting a murderer or rapist or meth lab producer or going after somebody who sored up a Walker which do you think they will do?

              The HSUS letter is publicity stunt.

              G.
              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                Guilherme - Great post. Thanks for your insight. You always have such a balanced view of things. Although it is not what i wanted to hear, it is what we all need to know. Publicity stunt or not, it helps keep this issue in the forefront. If and when a case is presented, the DAs will know that lots of eyes are on them.
                from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

                Comment


                • if a trainer is on suspension why is he even trying to show a horse?

                  Chad Way was on a 5yr suspension not over until 2017,but he was at the CELEBRATION.with a lame ?sored horse Ironworks Tin Man. so even if you are on suspension you can be at, show at the CELEBRATION.
                  this man had HPA violations all over the place.

                  Comment


                  • Watched it. Horse showed signs of pace/stepping pace. Not a naturally walking horse.

                    Originally posted by katarine View Post
                    Another very nice young horse I have no relation to in any way. A three year old by Titleist. Barefoot and I believe he's in a snaffle.

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6lBI...ature=youtu.be

                    I do hope I'm permitted to submit examples of modern bloodlines that naturally exhibit the good walks of a TWH.
                    In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Malda View Post
                      Watched it. Horse showed signs of pace/stepping pace. Not a naturally walking horse.
                      So post better examples. Again, the longer he walks, the better he gets.

                      Post BETTER examples if you don't like mine. If you're a fan of TWHs, surely you have videos of good horses, not just criticisms of horses you don't like. It's too easy to say well that sucks, and harder to show something better. Work harder.

                      Comment


                      • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h94Ju...eature=related

                        Not a huge head-nod, but still smooth and square.
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAFEB...eature=related

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKHtm...eature=related

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Es_v...eature=related

                        And a video from the days before the big lick where none of the horses is pacing.
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUECP...eature=related





                        Originally posted by katarine View Post
                        So post better examples. Again, the longer he walks, the better he gets.

                        Post BETTER examples if you don't like mine. If you're a fan of TWHs, surely you have videos of good horses, not just criticisms of horses you don't like. It's too easy to say well that sucks, and harder to show something better. Work harder.
                        In memory of Apache, who loved to play. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjZAqeg7HyE

                        Comment


                        • Wow Malda! Thanks for the 1949 video. That's what I'm Talking about. Same with the ASBs big difference from today.

                          Comment


                          • Thank you Malda

                            that 1949 video sure showed how it should be, MEN riding correctly not that crazy goose-necking leaning forward mess.

                            Good old day for the TWH,thanks again

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
                              Thank you Malda

                              that 1949 video sure showed how it should be, MEN riding correctly not that crazy goose-necking leaning forward mess.

                              Good old day for the TWH,thanks again
                              Funny, I was thinking how the "holding on by the hand" riding had not changed much in all these years.
                              Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                              Comment


                              • well, look at that! They all can make it around the ring a full turn, and their hocks are not touching the ground. Beautiful to watch

                                Comment


                                • LOVE LOVE LOVE Jesse in the dennpenn video. There really are many examples of horses exhibiting the walking gaits in many variations of speed, lift and style without the stacks and chains.

                                  I hope we continue to seek a way to get people to appreciate and covet this great horse and gait for "what it is." Too many have come to accept what it is not. Heck the very breed association has fallen into this chasm. Someone please send TWHBEA a clue.
                                  from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                                    The job of the District Atty. Gen. is to prosecute cases brought by the various law enforcement agencies in their District. It is not, generally, to go on "patrol" looking for new work; that comes quickly enough.

                                    Ask me how I know?




                                    There is also a critical difference between TN Law and the HPA.

                                    Under Sec. 39-14-202(a)(5) it is unlawful to sore a horse using chemical or mechanical means. It is not an offense to transport, sell, exhibit, or otherwise posses and use the animal.

                                    Under the HPA it's unlawful to do any of the above.

                                    The local DA must plead and prove each and every element of the offense beyond a reasonable doubt. Unless you've got video, a confession, or other direct or strong circumstantial evidence as to WHO did the deed (applied the chemicals, etc.) then you will likely not get a conviction.

                                    The Feds must only prove that the animal was sored and then exhibited by a person. Under the HPA the person who actually applied the soring materials is irrelevant. They must prove who exhibited (or transported, etc.) beyond a reasonable doubt but the testimony of a USDA VMO or DQP (or auctioneer or truck driver or etc.) would likely carry the burden of proof. If they do that the person is liable under the HPA. Others may also be liable if the U.S. Attorney can prove complicity in the crime.

                                    Put another way, both prosecutors must prove their cases beyond a reasonable doubt but the proof for the Feds. will be much easier to obtain than for the state DA.

                                    And, to put this in context, most of the Walker activity is in rural counties where there is lots of competition for very limited prosecutorial assets. If the DA has to choose between prosecuting a murderer or rapist or meth lab producer or going after somebody who sored up a Walker which do you think they will do?

                                    The HSUS letter is publicity stunt.

                                    G.
                                    But G - Publicity stunt or no - when HSUS does what they do best (get the undercover video) they get slammed too. The reality is - HSUS is the only organization willing to go get the evidence and they lobby hard.

                                    DQP does not work.

                                    So the long and short of it is changing the law is where it is going to have to happen for the TWH.

                                    Trying to change mind set and practices is never going to work till the action devices are out of the show ring for these breeds.
                                    from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

                                    Comment


                                    • Mornin;

                                      I received a email this morning someone asking me about a person wanting to join their clean, keg shod, sound moving group, that has a checkered background of being a Licker. ~~

                                      Question was, should they kick them out? I said no, gave my reasoning and pointed them to this old letter we wrote in 1998 for FOSH in their now defunct Steppin Out Magazine.

                                      I re-read this article and thought this is still good for today's issues....notice how this were the first mentioning of Dressage in TWHs... oh, did we get laughed at by so many, Dressage and Gaited Horses ! HA!

                                      Well, sometimes looking back to move forward is the way to go...so enjoy and tell me what you think.

                                      In 1998 our mantra was "1998 Back to the future with Watchout "
                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                      Steppin Out December 1998

                                      For Your Consideration:

                                      An Open Letter to Sore Horse Trainers from an Ex-Sore Horse Trainer
                                      By Jennie Jackson

                                      "Without a doubt, the most common error of all human beings is, the mistake of leaving our minds open to the negative influence of others"...

                                      I'm an ex-sore horse trainer. Starting in 1979 and through 1984, I got caught up in the excitement of getting my horse higher, deeper and freakier than the next, by any means that I could get away with.

                                      Part of the rush came from getting my horse in and out of the DQP inspection. I have used everything and then some of what was available that would keep my horse still on its feet but performing.

                                      I had friends who loved me and would constantly point out to me the error of my ways, but I didn't want to listen. To do without fixing my horse meant I would not be winning or be competitive and that would translate into not having any customers. We all knew that our customers liked winning.

                                      But the time came when God started pointing out to me the error of my ways; this was not as easy to ignore or justify as it was to my friends. It wasn't a rolling thundercloud with a booming voice declaring to me to heed His way; rather it was a small, still, inner voice that left me with nagging questions about what I thought I was doing.

                                      I found myself arguing with myself in such a way that I could not deny that what I was doing was not what God intended for this horse of for his use.

                                      It wasn't easy to walk away from my lifestyle; it was a true addiction. I had to sore horses. It seemed the more conviction I was getting inside, the more I started to win. I'd get that one great horse that was really comm' on so I couldn't stop now! I was on a streak! There is always opposition to every Godly plan.

                                      When I decided to kick the habit it didn't happen overnight. I'd work a horse without 'touching it' and would get frustrated at its performance. I'd figure just a little dab would do. Back to my trunk I would go, back to my little bag of tricks.

                                      I had many little relapses. But, my horses started telling me what they thought of what I was doing to them. When they were eating better, running and jumping around with a gleam in their eyes, just healthier horses all around, I really started to like to see my horses happy.

                                      I was just fooling myself into thinking that they were happy the other way. Think about it for a minute. We know when our dogs or cats are off. We see it right away.

                                      But we put our blinders on when it comes to our horses. The truth be known, we also know when they aren't happy or healthy in mind, body and spirit.

                                      I learned that no matter what you've got to do to get through it [stop soring horses]. Once you accept the fact that you've got to get through it, you've got to try to get through it as gracefully as you can.

                                      My choices made me unpopular with my group of fellow abusers. I lost a few customers only to have their horses being shown against me by someone else. I made that horse!, I'd think. "Now someone else is getting the credit for its performance."

                                      To this day some people look at me and wonder if I haven't relapsed with soring. I went back to my roots with dressage, which really tested my skills as a horseman, rather than as a chemist.

                                      I started using dressage and working with horses through cues of the legs and centered balanced riding rather than just riding from my hands.

                                      I started to realize that this wonderful breed I was working with was really responsive to what I was asking of them, demanding was not necessary any more.

                                      Those that I could, I took off their pads and started working with them, eventually phasing all the horses that needed pads out of my herd and breeding for the natural walking horse.

                                      This was more satisfying than 'making' a horse. I really felt that a 12 step type program should be started for those who sore. This addiction has been passed down from generations and is just as destructive as putting a needle in your arm or a bottle to your lips.

                                      The first steps are these:

                                      ~ Believe not because some old manuscripts are produced
                                      ~ Believe not because it is your national belief
                                      ~ Believe not because you have been made to believe from your childhood,
                                      ~ But reason truth out, and after you have analyzed it, then if you find it will do good to one and all.
                                      ~ Believe it, live up to it and help others to live up to it.

                                      From this we all need to be a continual source of encouragement to anyone trying to quit. Who benefits from this changed behavior? The Breed's image, The Horse, The Owner, The Exhibitor, and The Spectators. Let me tell you of the not so obvious abuser in this mess, it's the spectator who likes to see all of this freaky unnatural action in their horses!

                                      We have to start weaning ourselves off of this type of horse as the winner and start accepting the naturalness in the action of the horses. Praise, yell and root for the best "natural" horse in the ring and we'll start seeing a change in what gets shown in the ring.

                                      I wrote this to that person contemplating not soring next season. I'm not saying it's easy and a piece of cake, but it is the right thing to do. You will be blessed for your efforts if nothing more than not being cursed for doing it.

                                      I leave my phone open to talk privately and in total confidence with, not to, anyone who just wants to talk about it. May God bless all who turn away from this evil.

                                      From the editor: Jennie Jackson. A California based trainer, of Champagne Watchout, Triumphant and other flat shod performers.

                                      She may be reached at (209) 785-2844 and welcomes calls from people who want to turn away from chemical enhancement as a training tool in the walking horse industry.
                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                      14 years ago ~~~ this belief has NOT changed ~~~ When you tell the truth, you never have to remember what you said ~~~~~

                                      Comment


                                      • can you name this horse.

                                        http://www.hofapressan.is/en/read/20...-gaited-horses

                                        Comment


                                        • How is it that the wife of the Preacher, a self proclaimed sore trainer was able to see the error of her ways and yet, the majority on this thread refuse to believe anyone else can "be saved".

                                          Although the article is very immature and self serving it does have a message...YOU CAN BE SAVED....

                                          But then...that would fly against the usual posters here who want EVERYONE who has ever sored or does sore or will sore..put in jail.

                                          Y'all gonna send prison gifts to the Preachers wife while she is doin her time?

                                          She SORED TWH's for FIVE FULL YEARS....

                                          HANG HER HIGH....SUSPEND HER AS A LESSON TO OTHERS...and didn't someone say she received a ticket not so long ago?

                                          Glass houses are sure hard to live in
                                          The Elephant in the room

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