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Tennessee Walking Horse Soring Issue *Update post 1*

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  • Cordial: Good Morin Everybody

    I did mention in my posting that someone hightlight, copied and pasted this thread to me.

    You are correct I am not a member of that group, however, that does not stop people from sending things to me they think revelant to the cause.

    Walknsound, that is great news, besides seeing for my self the large numbers of empty barns with for sale sides out front. I hear from allot of people stating allot of same observations, I'm glad it is happenin in a major state that is for the padded horse and the associated soring.

    You know I am glad to be a member of COTH, I like the class of folks here :>)

    I'd like to hear from the group owner or a moderator is they recieved an upturn of visitors or members after Roy Exum mentioned COTH in his Septemberr 25th article. I hope so.

    Yours and mine voices do make a difference, I hope all of you see that, even the distractors, when you post what your thoughts and feeling are, someone can pick that up and try to show you what they see and understand to be contrary to you,

    This makes this group a very important "Educational Tool"

    Y'all have a blessed day and weekend

    The Preach

    Comment


    • Originally posted by The Preacher View Post
      Cordial: Good Morin Everybody

      I did mention in my posting that someone hightlight, copied and pasted this thread to me.

      You are correct I am not a member of that group, however, that does not stop people from sending things to me they think revelant to the cause.

      Walknsound, that is great news, besides seeing for my self the large numbers of empty barns with for sale sides out front. I hear from allot of people stating allot of same observations, I'm glad it is happenin in a major state that is for the padded horse and the associated soring.

      You know I am glad to be a member of COTH, I like the class of folks here :>)

      I'd like to hear from the group owner or a moderator is they recieved an upturn of visitors or members after Roy Exum mentioned COTH in his Septemberr 25th article. I hope so.

      Yours and mine voices do make a difference, I hope all of you see that, even the distractors, when you post what your thoughts and feeling are, someone can pick that up and try to show you what they see and understand to be contrary to you,

      This makes this group a very important "Educational Tool"

      Y'all have a blessed day and weekend

      The Preach
      Good morning Preacher. Thanks for posting about the barns for sale, nice to know what's going on in your neck of the woods.

      Comment


      • Gringo is this the same David Landrum with HPA violation 10-1-1992--1-31--1994 than again in 97 again in 1998 still again in 2002 than again in 2010. Do the Smith's know his history?are they concerned about the HORSES?

        Now if there are 2 David Landrum ?

        I'm only asking questions,why would someone use a trainer with a history of Violations.now thats like having a burglar to babyset your house.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          Originally posted by The Gringo View Post
          Wrong, McConnell never trained horses for the Smiths. David Landrum trained their horses for years, and leases the barn he trains at in Franklin from them. You really should check things out before trying to smear people's names.
          Remember the 3 yr old filly Jose Wine and Roses? She was moved to the Joe Cotten stables and Cotten posted pics of her scarred up pasterns on FB and asked Dr Mullins how on earth the filly had passed inspections ? Didnt Jose Wine and Roses come directly from the Landrum stable ? Hmmm Gringo ?

          I do agree that lots of people should check things out.
          from sunridge1 Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.

          Comment


          • now why would TWHBEA be sending a Exe Rep to the NWHA big show of the yr.could they be worried about something.

            their histiory isn't that buddy buddy.

            Comment


            • The When, Where, and Why Soring started
              Part 1


              I love history ~~~~ anybody's history, it makes for a great tool in my making decisions today IF I keep my mind open.

              I've been working on a project and thought I would share this part of our history, yours and mine.

              I would draw your attention to the founders or “Old Timer's” opinion in this reading.....see if any of it sound all too familiar with today's discussions:

              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              The Traditional Show Horse Era

              • The industry of the TWH evolved, it wasn’t born or imagined in what it has developed into.
              • The old “Plantation Horse” was not trained. He was bred. His attributes displayed loyalty and dependability.
              • The first attempt to “train the Walking Horse “ were aimed at capturing the natural gait of the animal.
              – Emulate mother gait in the field
              – Used equipment they had on hand
              – Equipment was to make the horse manageable and comfortable
              – Horses were not pushed to a gait that nature didn’t dictate
              – Looked for form, not speed
              – The Walking Horse was looked at as the “Aristocrat” of the show ring and preferred the other faster higher stepping exciting horses.
              – Around 1941 the older trainers of the industry gave way to the Younger generation of trainers who had a different vision on where the breed needed to go.
              – The formation of the TWH Celebration brought new pressures to the industry and the trainers
              – Societies taste and the economic surrounding the industry dictated a more exciting horse.

              Experimental Era 1940’s- 1955

              Steve Hill, Urban Small , Toby Green , and Winston Wiser were 4 or the most popular trainers in this era
              Horses were shown at greater speeds Trainers took more “hold” on the horse and added speed
              After WWII the industry was flooded with new trainers None wanted to stay with the “old way of going” that older trainers had shown.

              The new ideal walking horse were dependant on a more high headed higher stepping walking horse
              1945 the gap between the traditional and the new ideal was huge

              The older people of the industry protested the way of going of the new ideal horse but it was apparent the fans of the show ring preferred the new ideal horse

              The fans wanted speed but the sacrifice was form.

              Weight was added to the horse first to produce higher front ends. When this didn’t get the results wanted, it was found that a higher heel and a piece of lead added to the shoe would help. A pad was added and acted like a catapult and a shock absorber.

              Lead was placed in the toe of the shoe not only to get more front end but also it was found that it would make the animal reach further. The more the horse would break up front the more back end would be created to compensate for the weight distribution.

              By 1950 the new ideal walking horse was firmly established.

              The training of the new ideal era were well known. Training was not for one night. Conformation and the look of the breed had made it second to none in looks.



              The Desperate Era of the Walking Horse Industry
              Part 2

              The Desperate Era

              – Breeding was geared more to speed and pace producing a more sweeping action when squared up
              – Increased Speed and animation brought other problems
              – During the mid 50’s training techniques added chains to give more front end action which produced larger back ends. Talk of the Town retained the front end action after the chains were taken off. Most lost it after the chains were removed. The industry was in trouble. It had produced a horse that could not hold form at the speeds the crowds asked for.
              – 1955 a boot was legalized to be worn in the show ring. Older horsemen protested the move. Trainers were caught in whether to appease the fans or listen to the elder trainers. Since judges listen to the fans, it was no secret where the trainers were headed
              – Boots didn’t solve the problem.
              – Problem
              • No research had been done on the boot. It was designed for a Saddle Horse instead of a Walking Horse. Later it was discovered that a boot designed for the Walking horse could have produced the same results instead of the chemicals used in the sore horse era.
              • The Breeders were in no position to offer leadership or guidance
              • No agency in the industry to oversee the experimentation era
              • Result on “what worked” were determined on Saturday night at the horse show.

              No decade in the history of the Walking Horse held more promise than that of the 1950's. The efforts of years to make the Walking Horse a distinctive breed had reached a high level and at a superstructure had risen on the foundation of those efforts.

              Unfortunately, the Walking Horse industry did not build on the progress
              Instead of continuing the experimentation that had produced an excellent show horse, the industry leaped blindly into a course of action that brought it frustration and embarrassment.

              The history of this era is recorded, not in a spirit of placing blame, but in one of hoping that a study of its causes and effects will prevent future horse people from succumbing to the situations which produced this unfortunate episode.

              The Desperate Era


              The ideal horse was inspired by a horse named “Talk of the Town” 3 time WGC. Ironically his development was without the training techniques used to try and imitate his way of going

              In 1951 at the Celebration Talk of the Town, with Steve Hill won the roses. The fans that saw the performance had no doubt that this horses was the future of the breed. The horses powerful gait and sweeping backend was something the crowds had never seen. He would go on to win 2 more WGC.

              The Desperate Era


              Breeding was geared more to speed and pace producing a more sweeping action when squared up
              Increased Speed and animation brought other problems

              During the mid 50’s training techniques added chains to give more front end action which produced larger back ends.

              Talk of the Town retained the front end action after the chains were taken off. Most lost it after the chains were removed. The industry was in trouble. It had produced a horse that could not hold form at the speeds the crowds asked for.

              1955 a boot was legalized to be worn in the show ring. Older horsemen protested the move. Trainers were caught in whether to appease the fans or listen to the elder trainers. Since judges listen to the fans, it was no secret where the trainers were headed

              Boots didn’t solve the problem.

              Problem


              No research had been done on the boot. It was designed for a Saddle Horse instead of a Walking Horse. Later it was discovered that a boot designed for the Walking horse could have produced the same results instead of the chemicals used in the sore horse era.

              The Breeders were in no position to offer leadership or guidance

              No agency in the industry to oversee the experimentation era
              Result on “what worked” were determined on Saturday night at the horse show.

              The Desperate Era


              • Trainers continued to search for a way that would make a pacey horse square up long enough to make a show.
              – It was presumed that the horse must be sored to get the desired results.
              – No regulations by the industry or the government existed so it opened the door for more experimentation
              – Chemicals started to be used during this period.
              – Trainers varied in the extent of soring.
              – No entity within or outside the industry tried to prevent the practice until 1967
              – The sored horse of this era gave enemies of the breed a stick to beat it with. Also it caused division within the industry
              – In 1969 Vic Thompson , president of the newly formed Trainers Association plead that the practice stop.
              – In December of 1970 Congress passed the Horse Protection Act
              – Designated Qualified Person Programs developed

              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              We are suppose to learn from our past, mistakes, failures, successes, and accomplishments.

              The Era of Padded Horse is coming to a close, just my opinion, I want to work for a transition that goes smoothly and includes everyone, I disagree with your forecast of declining anything, a fresh start is what we need....

              Folks, we need to breed for that new "Talk Of The Town"

              I don't care if we lose even the heavy shoe, my feelings are; a few years keg shod, people will breed for that natural talented horse, I'd be happy talking building the shoe up after a few years and the foundation is well established

              Comment


              • Originally posted by The Preacher View Post
                The When, Where, and Why Soring started
                Part 1


                I love history ~~~~ anybody's history, it makes for a great tool in my making decisions today IF I keep my mind open.

                I've been working on a project and thought I would share this part of our history, yours and mine.

                I would draw your attention to the founders or “Old Timer's” opinion in this reading.....see if any of it sound all too familiar with today's discussions:

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                The Traditional Show Horse Era

                • The industry of the TWH evolved, it wasn’t born or imagined in what it has developed into.
                • The old “Plantation Horse” was not trained. He was bred. His attributes displayed loyalty and dependability.
                • The first attempt to “train the Walking Horse “ were aimed at capturing the natural gait of the animal.
                – Emulate mother gait in the field
                – Used equipment they had on hand
                – Equipment was to make the horse manageable and comfortable
                – Horses were not pushed to a gait that nature didn’t dictate
                – Looked for form, not speed
                – The Walking Horse was looked at as the “Aristocrat” of the show ring and preferred the other faster higher stepping exciting horses.
                – Around 1941 the older trainers of the industry gave way to the Younger generation of trainers who had a different vision on where the breed needed to go.
                – The formation of the TWH Celebration brought new pressures to the industry and the trainers
                – Societies taste and the economic surrounding the industry dictated a more exciting horse.

                Experimental Era 1940’s- 1955

                Steve Hill, Urban Small , Toby Green , and Winston Wiser were 4 or the most popular trainers in this era
                Horses were shown at greater speeds Trainers took more “hold” on the horse and added speed
                After WWII the industry was flooded with new trainers None wanted to stay with the “old way of going” that older trainers had shown.

                The new ideal walking horse were dependant on a more high headed higher stepping walking horse
                1945 the gap between the traditional and the new ideal was huge

                The older people of the industry protested the way of going of the new ideal horse but it was apparent the fans of the show ring preferred the new ideal horse

                The fans wanted speed but the sacrifice was form.

                Weight was added to the horse first to produce higher front ends. When this didn’t get the results wanted, it was found that a higher heel and a piece of lead added to the shoe would help. A pad was added and acted like a catapult and a shock absorber.

                Lead was placed in the toe of the shoe not only to get more front end but also it was found that it would make the animal reach further. The more the horse would break up front the more back end would be created to compensate for the weight distribution.

                By 1950 the new ideal walking horse was firmly established.

                The training of the new ideal era were well known. Training was not for one night. Conformation and the look of the breed had made it second to none in looks.



                The Desperate Era of the Walking Horse Industry
                Part 2

                The Desperate Era

                – Breeding was geared more to speed and pace producing a more sweeping action when squared up
                – Increased Speed and animation brought other problems
                – During the mid 50’s training techniques added chains to give more front end action which produced larger back ends. Talk of the Town retained the front end action after the chains were taken off. Most lost it after the chains were removed. The industry was in trouble. It had produced a horse that could not hold form at the speeds the crowds asked for.
                – 1955 a boot was legalized to be worn in the show ring. Older horsemen protested the move. Trainers were caught in whether to appease the fans or listen to the elder trainers. Since judges listen to the fans, it was no secret where the trainers were headed
                – Boots didn’t solve the problem.
                – Problem
                • No research had been done on the boot. It was designed for a Saddle Horse instead of a Walking Horse. Later it was discovered that a boot designed for the Walking horse could have produced the same results instead of the chemicals used in the sore horse era.
                • The Breeders were in no position to offer leadership or guidance
                • No agency in the industry to oversee the experimentation era
                • Result on “what worked” were determined on Saturday night at the horse show.

                No decade in the history of the Walking Horse held more promise than that of the 1950's. The efforts of years to make the Walking Horse a distinctive breed had reached a high level and at a superstructure had risen on the foundation of those efforts.

                Unfortunately, the Walking Horse industry did not build on the progress
                Instead of continuing the experimentation that had produced an excellent show horse, the industry leaped blindly into a course of action that brought it frustration and embarrassment.

                The history of this era is recorded, not in a spirit of placing blame, but in one of hoping that a study of its causes and effects will prevent future horse people from succumbing to the situations which produced this unfortunate episode.

                The Desperate Era


                The ideal horse was inspired by a horse named “Talk of the Town” 3 time WGC. Ironically his development was without the training techniques used to try and imitate his way of going

                In 1951 at the Celebration Talk of the Town, with Steve Hill won the roses. The fans that saw the performance had no doubt that this horses was the future of the breed. The horses powerful gait and sweeping backend was something the crowds had never seen. He would go on to win 2 more WGC.

                The Desperate Era


                Breeding was geared more to speed and pace producing a more sweeping action when squared up
                Increased Speed and animation brought other problems

                During the mid 50’s training techniques added chains to give more front end action which produced larger back ends.

                Talk of the Town retained the front end action after the chains were taken off. Most lost it after the chains were removed. The industry was in trouble. It had produced a horse that could not hold form at the speeds the crowds asked for.

                1955 a boot was legalized to be worn in the show ring. Older horsemen protested the move. Trainers were caught in whether to appease the fans or listen to the elder trainers. Since judges listen to the fans, it was no secret where the trainers were headed

                Boots didn’t solve the problem.

                Problem


                No research had been done on the boot. It was designed for a Saddle Horse instead of a Walking Horse. Later it was discovered that a boot designed for the Walking horse could have produced the same results instead of the chemicals used in the sore horse era.

                The Breeders were in no position to offer leadership or guidance

                No agency in the industry to oversee the experimentation era
                Result on “what worked” were determined on Saturday night at the horse show.

                The Desperate Era


                • Trainers continued to search for a way that would make a pacey horse square up long enough to make a show.
                – It was presumed that the horse must be sored to get the desired results.
                – No regulations by the industry or the government existed so it opened the door for more experimentation
                – Chemicals started to be used during this period.
                – Trainers varied in the extent of soring.
                – No entity within or outside the industry tried to prevent the practice until 1967
                – The sored horse of this era gave enemies of the breed a stick to beat it with. Also it caused division within the industry
                – In 1969 Vic Thompson , president of the newly formed Trainers Association plead that the practice stop.
                – In December of 1970 Congress passed the Horse Protection Act
                – Designated Qualified Person Programs developed

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                We are suppose to learn from our past, mistakes, failures, successes, and accomplishments.

                The Era of Padded Horse is coming to a close, just my opinion, I want to work for a transition that goes smoothly and includes everyone, I disagree with your forecast of declining anything, a fresh start is what we need....

                Folks, we need to breed for that new "Talk Of The Town"


                I don't care if we lose even the heavy shoe, my feelings are; a few years keg shod, people will breed for that natural talented horse, I'd be happy talking building the shoe up after a few years and the foundation is well established
                With my tongue planted firmly in my cheek, may I suggest a bit of Totilas blood. LOL.

                But seriously, I hope you are right Preacher.
                Groom to trainer: "Where's the glamour? You promised me glamour!"

                Comment


                • It has taken 50 years for the TWH to reach the nadir it's at now. It's going to take a very long time (a dozen or more equine generations) to repair that damage and find a new "main stream." Who is going to invest the capital necessary to do that?

                  G.
                  Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                    It has taken 50 years for the TWH to reach the nadir it's at now. It's going to take a very long time (a dozen or more equine generations) to repair that damage and find a new "main stream." Who is going to invest the capital necessary to do that?

                    G.
                    Well, if the big lick horses are only 1% of the population of TWH, then it shouldn't be a problem.

                    Perhaps that 1% figure is based on horse show participants, but all along all involved claim the big lick horses are a very, very, very small percentage of the breed.

                    Comment


                    • About Scott DesJarlais
                      Warning, this is nasty
                      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1953136.html

                      Really nasty
                      I wasn't always a Smurf
                      Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
                      "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                      The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dispatcher View Post
                        Well, if the big lick horses are only 1% of the population of TWH, then it shouldn't be a problem.

                        Perhaps that 1% figure is based on horse show participants, but all along all involved claim the big lick horses are a very, very, very small percentage of the breed.
                        It may be 1% of the population as a whole but it is clearly much greater as the "mainstream" of the show world. Even the Plantation and Light Shod horses move like "JV Big Lick" horses. It is also without any doubt the mainstream of the "money flow."

                        And it is the source of a huge number of foals produced each year. Those foals are bred out of WGC lines to be WGCs. They don't walk, they pace.

                        So it would appear that the problem is rather much larger than its raw numbers would indicate.

                        Since this constitutes a huge percentage of the breeding base, what should be done (if anything) to address the issue?

                        Note that all of this responding the suggestion that the Walker world needs a "new Talk of the Town."

                        G.
                        Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
                          About Scott DesJarlais
                          Warning, this is nasty
                          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1953136.html

                          Really nasty
                          Indeed. Not only a "nasty allegation" but demonstrates a rather nasty streak in those who repeat unsubstantiated gossip.

                          If Arianna Huffington told me the Sun rose in the East and set in the West I'd go out and check. Her rag represents an American version of "News of the World."

                          This is old news. I suspect the origin is the very nasty divorce action that he was involved in back in 2000. What do you want to bet the transcript that they so "breathlessly" obtained was an allegation in the divorce?

                          Those who trade in this form of gossip are akin to what clean off my shoes before I come into the house.

                          G.
                          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                            It may be 1% of the population as a whole but it is clearly much greater as the "mainstream" of the show world. Even the Plantation and Light Shod horses move like "JV Big Lick" horses. It is also without any doubt the mainstream of the "money flow."

                            And it is the source of a huge number of foals produced each year. Those foals are bred out of WGC lines to be WGCs. They don't walk, they pace.

                            So it would appear that the problem is rather much larger than its raw numbers would indicate.

                            Since this constitutes a huge percentage of the breeding base, what should be done (if anything) to address the issue?

                            Note that all of this responding the suggestion that the Walker world needs a "new Talk of the Town."

                            G.
                            i don't know anything about this group, but check out Heritage Tennessee Walking Horse
                            http://www.twhheritagesociety.com/index.html

                            Is this along the lines of what you mean, G?
                            Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                              Indeed. Not only a "nasty allegation" but demonstrates a rather nasty streak in those who repeat unsubstantiated gossip.

                              If Arianna Huffington told me the Sun rose in the East and set in the West I'd go out and check. Her rag represents an American version of "News of the World."

                              This is old news. I suspect the origin is the very nasty divorce action that he was involved in back in 2000. What do you want to bet the transcript that they so "breathlessly" obtained was an allegation in the divorce?

                              Those who trade in this form of gossip are akin to what clean off my shoes before I come into the house.

                              G.
                              So are you saying this is gossip?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
                                About Scott DesJarlais
                                Warning, this is nasty
                                http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1953136.html

                                Really nasty
                                nasty, really,if any of this is true i did say if it only means that the honorble Scott DesJarlais is lower than pond scum,and how does his stand on pro life after he had one of his lady friends( i use this term lightly) have an abortion have anything to do with Big LICK.unless you are talking about the celebration upholding DesJarlais.

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                                • Originally posted by aarpaso View Post
                                  nasty, really,if any of this is true i did say if it only means that the honorble Scott DesJarlais is lower than pond scum,and how does his stand on pro life after he had one of his lady friends( i use this term lightly) have an abortion have anything to do with Big LICK.unless you are talking about the celebration upholding DesJarlais .
                                  One and the same
                                  I wasn't always a Smurf
                                  Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
                                  "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                                  The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

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                                  • I don't care if we lose even the heavy shoe, my feelings are; a few years keg shod, people will breed for that natural talented horse, I'd be happy talking building the shoe up after a few years and the foundation is well established

                                    Preacher,
                                    I have to disagree. If the shoe is built up after a few years, it won't stop there, give these people an inch sort of thing. The TWH would be right back in the same predicament. After all, the abuses started small, then look what happened!

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                                    • Originally posted by sunridge1 View Post
                                      So are you saying this is gossip?
                                      I'm saying it's old news. A complete "hatchet job" was done in 2010 by his Democratic opponent who quoted extensively from his ex-wife's testimony at their divorce hearings and did not ever clearly indicate it was unsubstantiated allegations from a very angry ex-spouse. This appears to me to be the second round of "mud slinging" by his Democratic opponent.

                                      Then there's the source. The Huffington Report is not exactly the Wall Street Journal, or even the New York (One Upon A) Times.

                                      He does not represent my district. It's the next district over. I have met the man a couple of times. He doesn't come across as a "monster."

                                      Those who are upset because he has chosen to represent interests of the Sore Lick industry should stick to the facts. Dredging up alleged events from 12 years ago that are not clearly established as facts demonstrates a lack of moral and ethical character on the part of the "dredger."

                                      G.
                                      Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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                                      • They never come across as "monsters". It's called the "banality of evil".

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                                        • "Sore Lick" is a very deserved and descriptive term.
                                          from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

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